racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

[XtremelyBaneful]

What's the point of altering something about the character or his history just to be able to change his race?

It comes off as
1) completely unnecessary
2) just race changing for the sake of race changing; as opposed to the minority actor found was the best actor for the part and just happened to be a minority.

very good points

The only things that matter about Bruce Wayne's background is:

1. His parents were shot in front of him.
2. He's rich.
3. He trains for years to become Batman.

Dosen't matter how he's rich...most people don't care. If they find a black/hispanic/etc. actor who can play Bruce/Batman better than any other candidate, he should be cast. Period.

fine, if in some in some random scenario they go with a colored bruce wayne, i'll still say it is unfair that they made him black. why?

well, the argument was that there aren't enough black superheroes and making bruce wayne black would be less disproportionate - well then they should make bruce wayne brown or asian in that case because there are even less superheroes of those descent.

The have been three major instances of non-white characters in superhero comics being made white in the adaptation. Ra's Al Ghul (originally mixed Arab/Chines), Bane (originally Latino), and The Mandarin (originally Chinese). In the first two cases, no one really minded at all. In the third case, there was quite a lot of controversy among fans, but people in the wider world didn't care that much. What do ya'll think about that?

actually, I did take issue with bane not being latino and I made a post about it in this thread, here it is quoted:

For ex. Ra's al Ghul isn't pronounced correctly in the nolan trilogy, however, there are a couple of things with that. They never fully denied that he didn't have any Arab heritage; hell there are some Middle Eastern peoples that look as caucasian as Liam Neeson. But it even helps in dkr, during the flashbacks scenes around the area he was exiled, and all those prison inmates in the lazarus pit talking and chanting Moroccan, so his Arab heritage is hinted at. Could call him a british arab.

that's race, as for gender, I heard that a character in mos was changed to female and ended being the sister of the actual character changed, but she just takes his place. If it's a supporting character like that, I think it's fine as long as the plot can't get sticky.

with religion, I once started writing a fanfic of nightcrawler as a Muslim instead of Catholic but I thought it was interesting since his part of his character arc is being very faithful, so I thought it would be interesting to have another take on the character being devoted to something else like that.

with fatness, i'll use bb as another example - flass is supposed to be handsome in the comics but a lot of people think he's unattractive and again since it's like a supporting character I think it's fine.

but as for not agreeing with this, bane's one example where I really wasn't fond of the approach for heritage. I couldn't understand why they had to change his heritage at all. they made it more complicated than it should. first of all, people are divided about whether or not he was born in the lazarus pit, and if he was born there, he should have sounded like the rest of the people that lived there.

His voice, many would say, sounded like a mechanized sean connery, which is as most have heard a british/scottish accent. but if he really was born there it doesn't make sense. period. I've been called nitpicky before for accent issues like this but honestly, bane was the second most important character imo in dkr and he had a very thought provoking and unique origin in the comics so I really wished they'd have done it and done it right.

I'm sensing a little ********* here. Is it because I was able to dismantle your argument without HAVING to defend my own position? Did I make it look too easy? Sorry for that.

no, he actually did back it up. perhaps you should go and reread. I wrote about this too on the first or second page

I'm of the opinion that if the race isn't ingrained into the characters origin and heritage then it's fair game for any race to be cast in the role.

Black Panthers race is part of his character
Luke Cage race isn't part of his character
Bruce Wayne race isn't part of his character
Janet Pyms race isn't part of her character
Wonder Womans race is part of her character
Lex Luthors race isn't part of his character
Electro's race isn't part of his character

And so on.

There are numorous roles in movie history that have been white-washed so to speak and no one cared, but change a white character and it's an issue. That to me speaks to an underlining problem of racial issues

okay so you're making it clear how these superheroes' races don't matter (although I do not agree with bruce wayne, as it has been explained by myself and craigdbfan several times) wat about supporting characters? I've never remembered anything about lucius fox's character tied to his african american heritage side from the fact that he was written that way but wat if they made him right?

hm, makes me wonder if everyone posting actually read my op no matter though, for those of you who did I encourage you to please vote in the poll

 

[Warhammer]

On a side note about Bane, I wish they didn't whitewash him. I understand that before 2012, maybe two people who weren't into comics knew who Bane was, but how many major Hispanic villains do we have? It would have been cool.

 

[moviedoors]

but how many major Hispanic villains do we have?

Only the greatest movie villain of all time: Anton Chigurgh.

Normally, I'd like to see the minority character, but in the case of Bane, what they did was so creepy, intimidating, bizarre, and goofy that I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I'm in the camp of "don't set out to change the race do a character, but if an actor of a different race is the obvious choice, run with it."

A great example of that is the one that has been mentioned several times already: Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin. There is literally no actor on this earth that I can think of that would be better for Kingpin.

Another one would be if (when) they make an Affleck Bat-movie. If Denzel Washington shows up and says "hey, I want to play Gordon," you sure as hell hire Denzel.

This just got me thinking, actually... Maybe one of the Avengers sequels, which deals with Infinity gems or some other universal threat, opens with a very familiar narration, and at the end, we see that the opening narration wa by none other than Uatu the Watcher, played by Morgan Freeman.

 

[Warhammer]

I'd love to see a person legitimately argue that Uatu should only be played by a white dude.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I'd love to see a person legitimately argue that Uatu should only be played by a white dude.

Uatu is definitely white, because he actually gives a **** about the Fantastic Four.

 

[Doctor Evo]

no, he actually did back it up. perhaps you should go and reread. I wrote about this too on the first or second page

He most certainly did not. He never once explained how Wayne's WASP background is integral to the character, especially within the context of an adaptation. The second part is crucial here and is being largely ignored.

His argument is that we believe that the WASP background is devoid of cultural significance, which completely misses the point. I have made no such claim, nor have I even made the implication.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Uatu is definitely white, because he actually gives a **** about the Fantastic Four.

Uatu only interferes when someone is having a rich white person problem.

 

[Thundercrack85]

My issue with the point is that what constitutes integral seems to be very arbitrary.

 

[Doctor Evo]

My issue with the point is that what constitutes integral seems to be very arbitrary.

I suppose. I think a more appropriate word would be subjective, but it's a fair point.

 

[craigdbfan]

On a side note about Bane, I wish they didn't whitewash him. I understand that before 2012, maybe two people who weren't into comics knew who Bane was, but how many major Hispanic villains do we have? It would have been cool.

Once again Latino/Hispanic isn't a race.

Banes father is an Englishmen and his mother a Spanish or a mestizo woman from Santa Prisca. In the comics Bane is shown to have a copper brown like hair with white facial characteristics so again racially Tom Hardy fit the role just fine.

People need to get it out of their heads that Latino is a race. I understand that many of you perceive Latinos to be a race due to the large amount of mestizos (Amerindian & White) from Mexico and Central America. That image has been ingrained into most Americans idea of what a Hispanic/Latino person looks like but understand that someone that's Latino can be White (like the majority off those from Argentina, Uruguay, & Chile) while others can be Black (Dominican Republic, Cuba) or Mestizo, Mulatto or an admixture of any of the above.

In short Bane was still very much white in the comics so I'm always a bit bothered when someone says that Banes race was changed in TDKR.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I understand what you mean Craig there are Anglo Latinos that are pale as snow with no "ethnic" features to speak of.

 

[Warhammer]

Once again Latino/Hispanic isn't a race.

Banes father is an Englishmen and his mother a Spanish or a mestizo woman from Santa Prisca. In the comics Bane is shown to have a copper brown like hair with white facial characteristics so again racially Tom Hardy fit the role just fine.

People need to get it out of their heads that Latino is a race. I understand that many of you perceive Latinos to be a race due to the large amount of mestizos (Amerindian & White) from Mexico and Central America. That image has been ingrained into most Americans idea of what a Hispanic/Latino person looks like but understand that someone that's Latino can be White (like the majority off those from Argentina, Uruguay, & Chile) while others can be Black (Dominican Republic, Cuba) or Mestizo, Mulatto or an admixture of any of the above.

In short Bane was still very much white in the comics so I'm always a bit bothered when someone says that Banes race was changed in TDKR.

By every modern classification whether it's on a standardized test, a job application, or a police report, Hispanic is a race/ethnicity. On the broad scope of classification, that remains true. Those of black descent from the Dominican Republic, for example (and I know this is a huge thing with Dominicans specifically) are ethnically black. They are Dominican (and since the Dominican Republic is in Latin America, they are Latino in that respect...I get it) by nationality and culture, but ethnically they are black.

Honestly, we're just arguing semantics.

And btw, Bane may have had brown hair nor had typical Hispanic features because he was mixed, but that didn't make him European like Tom Hardy. Bane is supposed to have the strong accent and everything. And don't get me wrong. I didn't get mad at all about Tom Hardy's casting. Tom Hardy gave a great performance. In hindsight, it just would have been cool if Bane was portrayed how he is in the comics.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I am curious to see the career path of Lupita Nyong'o after 12 Years a Slave. Does she become one of the major black female actresses? Or will she be a flash in the pan? The major black female actresses right now are Kerry Washington, Viola Davis, Zoe Saldana, Octavia Spencer, Naomie Harris, Halle Berry, Paula Patton, Angela Bassett and Rosario Dawson. And of course, Oprah, but she's not a full time actress.

Washington has a Golden Globe nomination along with an Emmy nomination, Davis has been nominated twice for an Oscar, Saldana and Harris have the big blockbuster films (Saldana with Avatar, The Star Trek movies and coming soon Guardians of the Galaxy and Harris has Pirates 2, Pirates 3, Skyfall and James Bond 24), Berry and Spencer have the Oscar, although both have yet to repeat that success (Fruitvale Station was released so early in 2013, that Spencer's fantastic performance will likely be overlooked when nominations are announced) but Berry does have the X-Men films and Dawson and Patton do not have the critical acclaim or the box office success (unless you count the last Mission Impossible movie) but both have steady work, although Dawson seems to be stuck where she is currently. Oprah is well...Oprah (Lee Daniels The Butler may have been released way too early for her to get a nomination, but we'll see). Angela Bassett has also had steady work and a steady career with numerous acclaim to her name.

And yes, Naomie Harris has more of a supporting role in Pirates 2 and Pirates 3 and Skyfall, but those are the roles she's best known for in the States. She's not stuck in a career rut like Rosario Dawson is. Hell, barring a major collapse, Bond 24 will probably surpass Skyfall in the box office, giving Harris her fourth major blockbuster hit. Harris has had a better career than Dawson.

Now going to Latinos, it seems to me that Hollywood is more interested in the foreign born Latino actor that the American born. If the studios want someone to play a Latino and they want the film to be a success overseas, they will call on Javier Bardem. If not Bardem and they want to go a bit younger, they will go with either Gael Garcia Bernal or Diego Luna. All three (plus Antonio Banderas and Damien Bichir) all have international appeal because all of them can speak English very fluently but also speak fluent Spanish as well. We all see these foreign born Latin actors in English speaking roles all of the time. The closest thing we have to a Hispanic/American actor is Oscar Isaac, but he too is foreign born (born in Guatemala), although raised in Miami. Banderas is an American citizen, but not by birth. Isaac is also bilingual and so that will raise his international appeal. The English speaking roles that you usually see Bardem, Banderas, Bichir, Bernal, Luna and (soon Isaac as well) get means that American born Latino actors like Michael Pena, Adam Rodriguez, Freddy Rodriguez and others have to fight for scraps. But the foreign born actors have proven to be successful in the United States, Bardem especially.

 

[Warhammer]

I hope to see the rise of Oscar Isaac. His talent is too under the radar. I hope he has that breakthrough role that gets him that mainstream buzz. As for Nyong'o, she only goes as far as she's willing to go. If she wins the Oscar, I can see her going the way of Marion Cotillard with the award getting her to the breakthrough role (Public Enemies) then the rest will be history.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I hope to see the rise of Oscar Isaac. His talent is too under the radar. I hope he has that breakthrough role that gets him that mainstream buzz. As for Nyong'o, she only goes as far as she's willing to go. If she wins the Oscar, I can see her going the way of Marion Cotillard with the award getting her to the breakthrough role (Public Enemies) then the rest will be history.

Cotillard has had a nice career. If that's the career that Lupita ends up like, that's not a bad career.

Hollywood I think needs another Black actress in the A-List. Nyong'o will either follow the trajectory of Viola Davis and we'll see her get back to the awards scene again in a few years, or the route of Zoe Saldana and Naomie Harris. Then again she could end up like every other black actress behind the ones I just mentioned in my other thread, just stuck.

I am surprised that Rosario Dawson hasn't had a bigger career at this point. She has yet to have that one role that breaks through, like Kerry Washington did with Scandal. Scandal improved Washington's career and turned her from a decent character actress to an A-Lister.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I never understood why Superman is a white guy, But I get it. In Hollywood the white guy is our default player. lol

 

[Thundercrack85]

Probably because he has been since the thirties. Or do you mean why he looks like a human who is white?

 

[Lencho01]

Alfre Woodard had this to say in regards to an actress such as Nyong'o...

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I don't know. I see the point, but Halle Berry did pretty well after her Oscar win (even if her choices of which roles to take left something to be desired, but that was on her). I think the bias with roles is more against older actresses than actresses of other races.

 

[Shikamaru]

He most certainly did not. He never once explained how Wayne's WASP background is integral to the character, especially within the context of an adaptation. The second part is crucial here and is being largely ignored.

His argument is that we believe that the WASP background is devoid of cultural significance, which completely misses the point. I have made no such claim, nor have I even made the implication.

From a few pages back:

The whole theme regarding the legacy of the Wayne family is much more powerful and can have a bigger impact on Bruce if his family has been in Gotham for centuries since the city's beginning as opposed to just 3 generations ago. The whole "playboy act is ruining family's image but I have to in order to secretly fulfill their legacy as Batman by continuing to help the city" angle just wouldn't have the same impact under 3 generations as, for example, Solomon Wayne working with Gotham's architects and his history with the Civil War. Would there be zero impact with the former approach? No. Would it still be strong? Yes. Can it still play a part in the whole theme of legacy? Yes. But not the same extent IMO.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Because there is an imbalance in the representation of different ethnicities in popular media that disproportionately favors white people, and I'm talking about doing something to level out that imbalance. White actors being cast in non-white roles furthers that imbalance. Its a pretty simple concept.

Nail hits head.

Representation, on the other hand, is about saying loud and clear that a particular group of people exist and that they matter. We need heroic leads in films who are women and LGBT and people of color, not simply so that those groups can identify with them (although that helps and is a nice thing), but to state very plainly that those people can be the hero.

Again 100% bang on.

Indian/Pakistani people are the largest ethnic minority in the UK if you watch British TV or Films you see lots of actors from those backgrounds.

Excellent point. The soaps and TV shows over here are a good representation of multicultural society circa 2014.

The people on the screen are the same variation of colour, religion and sexuality as can be found on the streets of London.

Seeing an Asian man as the lead man in a Hollywood film that doesn't involve martial arts is still almost unheard.

Indeed, quite rare.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Alfre Woodard had this to say in regards to an actress such as Nyong'o...

She's right. Out of all of the cast of 12 Years a Slave, she's the one right now with an uncertain future. The rest of the cast will be fine and we don't really know about her at all in terms of her future. She could easily fall into the Jennifer Hudson/Monique trap of receiving major critical acclaim for a role and then.....nothing of any significance for years (at least Halle Berry has the X Men films and is steadily working. Octavia Spencer did get a lot of early Oscar buzz for Fruitvale Station but that has long since evaporated).

If Patsey had been played by an actress we have already seen before, I don't think this would be an issue because we would know that she will be fine long after the awards buzz fades off.

 

[chamber-music]

Ruth Negga seems to be on the up as well. I hope she gets some bigger roles.

 

[Chance Jackson]

However, there's also a flip side to that last statement. For some reason, Hollywood execs are still stuck in their old ways and aren't willing to take chances. Case in point, 47 Ronin. The big rumor (that makes alot of sense when you watch the film) was that Keanu Reeves was only supposed to be in the film for 15 minutes. Either they weren't happy that they paid Keanu Reeves to barely be in the film or that they didn't think an Asian man (Hiroyuki Sanada) could be the leading man in the film. I'm inclined to believe both with more emphasis on the latter. Or we can talk about the why Russell Crowe is portraying Noah in the upcoming Noah or why Christian Bale is portraying Moses in the upcoming Exodus.

I truly do hope that in ten years, we can legitimately have minorities in more lead roles and star vehicles. We just need Hollywood big wigs to take chances instead of sticking to the regular procedure.

Perhaps East Asians haven't stood up loud enough to hollywood discrimination of them as you have said significant Asian characters often get whitenized case in point Kung Fu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_(TV_series)#Bruce_Lee.27s_involvement, Movie 21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_(2008_film)#Casting_controversy The Last Airbender and much more