racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

[Doctor Evo]

I'm not. How is it absurd? Go ahead and explain yourself instead of just dropping that little comment without bothering to explain how you think turning Wayne into an African-American man wouldn't inherently change the character. That's far more absurd. I hold the exact same view when it comes to Akira by the way with its Japanese characters and settings unless you think that turning all the characters white and then changing the setting to Manhattan doesn't change the story either.

Go ahead and explain yourself.

You still haven't adequately explained how it WOULD inherently change the character. Your argument essentially boils down to, "It's impossible for a minority to be so rich."

Any semblance of a coherent rationale is absent from your argument. You say it's an inherent part of his character without ever explaining why. How do you not see that?

 

[Teelie]

I understand his logic behind it. I may not necessarily agree with it but the reasoning is there. The Wayne family is "old money" rich and there are very few black families who can claim to be old money. There just wasn't/hasn't been time for a black family to become as rich as that.

Of course this is also a real world explanation, not a comic world explanation where there are super powered beings, aliens and a host of other supernatural characters so I'm just adding my opinion to it.

Being that DC's universe is only partially based on ours (we have no Metropolis, Gotham, aliens, etc) then it wouldn't be too problematic for them to be black, although I think changing too much of the character history would dilute him. There would (and always are) changes to adapt him to a movie. Making him black would be controversial for obvious reasons but it is less to do with in-universe reasoning than reality being people not able to accept it.

 

[Manic]

It would be absurd for Bruce Wayne to be that rich and black if Batman were a period piece. But by now, it's entirely possible for a black family in America to be 2 or 3 generations into wealth.

It's like what jmc said. Batman is a character so popular that his being white is just cemented in the public consciousness. There's no logical reason he can't be black; people just don't want to see him change that much.

 

[craigdbfan]

You still haven't adequately explained how it WOULD inherently change the character. Your argument essentially boils down to, "It's impossible for a minority to be so rich."

Jesus.

Do you know the Wayne's history? They've been here since the damn pilgrims landed on Plymouth rock, that's not even an exaggeration either since the Wayne family has its roots in the US since 1640 in the comics. That would be 20 years after the pilgrims established their society in America.

They're a WASP family that has had generations and generations unperturbed by racism or discrimination to accumulate their massive amount of wealth. Now are you aware of the conditions black people have been in for most of their history in the US?

No? Well let me remind you that even after the long years of slavery they were still barred from gaining any access to jobs that would ever even reach the soles of the level of wealth the Wayne family would be able to attain due to their race/ethnic background and the amount of time they had to gain such wealth and prosperity.

That's my only point. Obviously now a minority can make millions or billions but I sincerely hope you're aware that it hasn't always been like that.

As I said changing Wayne's race to being Black would literally make no historical sense unless we pretend that slavery never occurred in the US.

Thanks for choosing to not explain yourself again by the way.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Only on the internet...

Maybe its about a guy who hate internet trolls so much, that he finally decides to track and kill them. With sandpaper.

 

[Manic]

Like anyone gives half a fig if the Wayne family is an old Plymouth Rock family. That literally has never come up in any Batman movie thus far.

 

[Teelie]

Maybe its about a guy who hate internet trolls so much, that he finally decides to track and kill them. With sandpaper.

This is a potential blockbuster movie. Who has been on the internet and yet never encountered a troll they wanted to see die a horrible death?

 

[craigdbfan]

Like anyone gives half a fig if the Wayne family is an old Plymouth Rock family. That literally has never come up in any Batman movie thus far.

They're old money and that much has been established in the films. I just went into further depth.

A new money black Bruce Wayne would completely betray who the character is and makes the whole venture pointless. At that point you may as well create a new character. That's not who Bruce Wayne is and I'm not going to hide behind political correctness to tell me otherwise.

 

[The Question]

Jesus.

Do you know the Wayne's history? They've been here since the damn pilgrims landed on Plymouth rock, that's not even an exaggeration either since the Wayne family has its roots in the US since 1640 in the comics. That would be 20 years after the pilgrims established their society in America.

They're a WASP family that has had generations and generations unperturbed by racism or discrimination to accumulate their massive amount of wealth. Now are you aware of the conditions black people have been in for most of their history in the US?

No? Well let me remind you that even after the long years of slavery they were still barred from gaining any access to jobs that would ever even reach the soles of the level of wealth the Wayne family would be able to attain due to their race/ethnic background and the amount of time they had to gain such wealth and prosperity.

That's my only point. Obviously now a minority can make millions or billions but I sincerely hope you're aware that it hasn't always been like that.

As I said changing Wayne's race to being Black would literally make no historical sense unless we pretend that slavery never occurred in the US.

Thanks for choosing to not explain yourself again by the way.

1: He could be mixed race. Sure, Thomas Wayne is the crown prince of WASPiness who comes from generations of rich white dudes, but Martha doesn't have to be. She can be any race you like.

2: Change the Wayne family history. Make them relatively new money. Say that Bruce's granddad was the one who got rich. The notion that the Wayne family has always been obscenely wealthy and basically built Gotham city isn't super high on the list of vital parts of the Bat-mythos that have to survive the adaptation.

They're old money and that much has been established in the films. I just went into further depth.

A new money black Bruce Wayne would completely betray who the character is and makes the whole venture pointless. At that point you may as well create a new character. That's not who Bruce Wayne is and I'm not going to hide behind political correctness to tell me otherwise.

Why is his coming from old money that vital an aspect of his character? The only Batman story I can think of where that plays a big role is Court of Owls.

In what way would Bruce Wayne be fundamentally changed as a character if it was his grandfather who made the family fortune instead of his great-great-great-great-great grandfather?

Personally, I've always seen the wealth aspect of Batman as pretty incidental. It's basically a means so Bill Finger and Bob Kaine didn't have to write around him having a day job. I generally prefer stories where it's de-emphasized, so changing around with it's history doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Shikamaru]

What's the point of altering something about the character or his history just to be able to change his race?

It comes off as
1) completely unnecessary
2) just race changing for the sake of race changing; as opposed to the minority actor found was the best actor for the part and just happened to be a minority.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

This is a potential blockbuster movie. Who has been on the internet and yet never encountered a troll they wanted to see die a horrible death?

It could be used as a warning to internet trolls. "You could be next!"

 

[craigdbfan]

1: He could be mixed race. Sure, Thomas Wayne is the crown prince of WASPiness who comes from generations of rich white dudes, but Martha doesn't have to be. She can be any race you like.

2: Change the Wayne family history. Make them relatively new money. Say that Bruce's granddad was the one who got rich. The notion that the Wayne family has always been obscenely wealthy and basically built Gotham city isn't super high on the list of vital parts of the Bat-mythos that have to survive the adaptation.

I'm fine with someone making that film it just doesn't have to be Batman.

Just create a new character if that's the case or better yet just wait until Marvel Studios adapts Black Panther on to the big screen.

If someone would tell me to change Black Panther's (T'Challa) lineage into a rich Danish family who immigrated to South Africa I would absolutely detest the idea as much as I do the changing of Bruce Wayne's history. Both of those changes strip these characters of who they are.

 

[The Batman]

The only things that matter about Bruce Wayne's background is:

1. His parents were shot in front of him.
2. He's rich.
3. He trains for years to become Batman.

Dosen't matter how he's rich...most people don't care. If they find a black/hispanic/etc. actor who can play Bruce/Batman better than any other candidate, he should be cast. Period.

 

[Manic]

If someone would tell me to change Black Panther's (T'Challa) lineage into a rich Danish family who immigrated to South Africa I would absolutely detest the idea as much as I do the changing of Bruce Wayne's history. Both of those changes strip these characters of who they are.

That's a false equivalency. A huge one, too. In your scenario, you just changed Black Panther's entire setting from Wakanda to South Africa. And one key aspect of Wakanda is that it's an isolationist country that abhors outsiders; that's how some of Black Panther's plots are driven, even. If you keep a Black Panther movie in Wakanda, there is literally no way to change Black Panther's race without changing the fundamental mythos of his home.

Changing Bruce Wayne from being old money to "granddad's money" changes his character... how exactly?

 

[The Question]

What's the point of altering something about the character or his history just to be able to change his race?

Because there aren't enough non-white heroes in popular media, and having one of the most popular and beloved pop-culture icons of all time be played by a non-white actor sends a very positive message. And because the alteration in question doesn't do any harm or fundamentally change what the character is all about, so there really is no reason not to.

2) just race changing for the sake of race changing; as opposed to the minority actor found was the best actor for the part and just happened to be a minority.

Why does that matter?

I'm fine with someone making that film it just doesn't have to be Batman.

Just create a new character if that's the case or better yet just wait until Marvel Studios adapts Black Panther on to the big screen.

If someone would tell me to change Black Panther's (T'Challa) lineage into a rich Danish family who immigrated to South Africa I would absolutely detest the idea as much as I do the changing of Bruce Wayne's history. Both of those changes strip these characters of who they are.

Wow, that's the mother of all false equivalencies. You really think that making one of the few black super heroes, one who is actually steeped in the history and traditions of native African culture, into a white guy is exactly the same as making one of the thousands of white super heroes who's cultural background doesn't get a whole lot of emphasis into a black guy?

And you still haven't explained why Batman is fundamentally defined by being a white dude from a family of white dudes who have been rich forever. I'm pretty sure he's fundamentally defined by the whole "I am Vengeance, I am the Night!" thing.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Jesus.

Do you know the Wayne's history? They've been here since the damn pilgrims landed on Plymouth rock, that's not even an exaggeration either since the Wayne family has its roots in the US since 1640 in the comics. That would be 20 years after the pilgrims established their society in America.

They're a WASP family that has had generations and generations unperturbed by racism or discrimination to accumulate their massive amount of wealth. Now are you aware of the conditions black people have been in for most of their history in the US?

No? Well let me remind you that even after the long years of slavery they were still barred from gaining any access to jobs that would ever even reach the soles of the level of wealth the Wayne family would be able to attain due to their race/ethnic background and the amount of time they had to gain such wealth and prosperity.

my only point. Obviously now a minority can make millions or billions but I sincerely hope you're aware that it hasn't always been like that.

As I said changing Wayne's race to being Black would literally make no historical sense unless we pretend that slavery never occurred in the US.

Thanks for choosing to not explain yourself again by the way.

1) The bolded portion represents a serious flaw in your reasoning.

2) You're arguing about historical realism in a fictional universe. In an ADAPTATION, no less. Let that sink in for a second.

3) None of this explains how or why this history is integral to the character itself. It's actually relatively inconsequential when taken in context.

4) You're making a positive claim, and thus the burden of explaining the position falls to you. If you are unable to adequately explain or defend your position (clearly the case here), then why should I be expected to do the same? It is unnecessary. I maintain that his race doesn't really matter, because why should it?

See how this works?

 

[The Question]

The only things that matter about Bruce Wayne's background is:

1. His parents were shot in front of him.
2. He's rich.
3. He trains for years to become Batman.

Dosen't matter how he's rich...most people don't care. If they find a black/hispanic/etc. actor who can play Bruce/Batman better than any other candidate, he should be cast. Period.

Honestly, I think making him a person of color or a person of mixed race adds a whole new dynamic to the character that might actually make his being wealthy interesting for once. Now he's got to live with being a person who is exceptionally privileged among his own ethnic community as well as being someone for whom that privilege did not protect against tragedy and loss. If anything, that could really contextualize his desire to eschew the playboy lifestyle and fight for a better Gotham city in the actual experiences of the people in Gotham at the bottom of the social ladder who are suffering.

I think it would actually make batman better

 

[Doctor Evo]

A new money black Bruce Wayne would completely betray who the character is and makes the whole venture pointless.

You have yet to explain how.

 

[Doctor Evo]

What's the point of altering something about the character or his history just to be able to change his race?

It comes off as
1) completely unnecessary
2) just race changing for the sake of race changing; as opposed to the minority actor found was the best actor for the part and just happened to be a minority.

I agree with this.

 

[The Question]

I think Batman should be of mixed race. His father was the super WASPy crown prince of Gotham, and his mom was a working class Latina who immigrated from Mexico. Strengthens the Zorro connection (in addition to generally being hispanic, Zorror was also of mixed race, his father was a wealthy white Spaniard and his mother was a Native Mexican), and I think being born straddling two vastly separate social strata could inform his decision to become the champion of the people of Gotham city in a very interesting way.

 

[The Batman]

Honestly, I think making him a person of color or a person of mixed race adds a whole new dynamic to the character that might actually make his being wealthy interesting for once. Now he's got to live with being a person who is exceptionally privileged among his own ethnic community as well as being someone for whom that privilege did not protect against tragedy and loss. If anything, that could really contextualize his desire to eschew the playboy lifestyle and fight for a better Gotham city in the actual experiences of the people in Gotham at the bottom of the social ladder who are suffering.

I think it would actually make batman better

I'd like to see an elseworlds book on the subject, at the very least. It would interesting for sure.

 

[craigdbfan]

You have yet to explain how.

I already did. The points about old money and keeping the characters racial background in perspective are important to me at least.

Everyone else explained their reasoning far better than you ever cared to do. I don't necessarily agree with any of them but I respect that they at least went on to articulate themselves with some really good explanations instead of just dropping a single sentence.

 

[craigdbfan]

I think Batman should be of mixed race. His father was the super WASPy crown prince of Gotham, and his mom was a working class Latina who immigrated from Mexico. Strengthens the Zorro connection (in addition to generally being hispanic, Zorror was also of mixed race, his father was a wealthy white Spaniard and his mother was a Native Mexican), and I think being born straddling two vastly separate social strata could inform his decision to become the champion of the people of Gotham city in a very interesting way.

That actually sounds pretty interesting. Visually the character of Bruce Wayne would still probably look the same but the background does seem interesting.

 

[Manic]

Before I get accused of anything (because I don't know if craig is as trigger happy as certain other mods), I want to point out that my argument basically boils down to "people don't want to see Batman change race because he's so popular," and that there otherwise isn't any real reason why he couldn't be made black or some other race. He's really popular, he's always been white, people are used to seeing him white, and people hate change for change's sake.

Comparing a black Batman to a white Black Panther is absurd, as Black Panther is about as black and African as you can get, and he's one of the few black superheroes whose entire mythos and character would be changed by turning him white.

I will admit that if we were talking about a white Luke Cage, there's no argument I or anyone else could make beyond "he's always been black, and there aren't that many popular black superheroes as it is so it's unfair to take one away from us." You could still potentially tell Cage's story with a white actor without changing anything significant, though. It's about as logical as keeping Batman white, as neither character's backstory is heavily tied to their skin color.

 

[craigdbfan]

Why would I ban or give you an infraction for that? You're not doing anything wrong.

You're expressing your opinion as much as I am. I don't agree with it but that's the beauty of having a civil discussion.