racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

do you see wat i'm saying?

  • yes i see wat you're saying

  • i don't agree with you, but i understand you.

  • no and this thread is bollocks.


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See that's one of the problems here. Some don't care about tossing out the white Anglo-Saxon & old money aspect out because they don't even view it as a form of culture. It's treated as if it's just a blank piece of paper without any significant meaning.

I think it's important because that's a cultural element that is deeply ingrained into the character of Bruce Wayne.

In what way is it ingrained into the character of Bruce Wayne? You keep saying that but you never explain exactly what that means.

I'm a Batman fan. I love Batman. I've spent way too many hours just thinking about Batman. I also don't see why the old money aspect is a big deal.Just like some see the T'Challa's African prince background inseparable from the character I view the Wayne's Anglo-Saxon background to be inseparable to both the characters and the foundations that surround him.

Black Panther lives and embodies his cultural heritage every moment of every day. In what way does Batman live and embody his cultural heritage. What about his behavior, his personality, his outlook, and his thematic meaning in the story is uniquely old money wasp? If he was of another ethnicity, and if his family's backstory changed so that they were relatively new money, what about who he is and how he sees the world would have to change to accommodate that?
 
See that's one of the problems here. Some don't care about tossing out the white Anglo-Saxon & old money aspect out because they don't even view it as a form of culture. It's treated as if it's just a blank piece of paper without any significant meaning.

I think it's important because that's a cultural element that is deeply ingrained into the character of Bruce Wayne. Just like some see the T'Challa's African prince background inseparable from the character I view the Wayne's Anglo-Saxon background to be inseparable to both the characters and the foundations that surround him.
How/why is it deeply ingrained with respect to Bruce Wayne and his character? What would fundamentally change about him outside of the proposed changes themselves?
 
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The idea of creating all-new, original non-white characters presents a few problems:

1. Nobody cares about new characters. Very few new superheroes created since the 1980's have really landed. How many new non-white solo superheroes (who aren't taking their codenames from previous white superheroes) are really all that popular? I can only think of Static. I love Blue Beetle, but Jaime is using the name of two previous white heroes, and putting him out there brings me to my next point:

2. Fans will always feel that there's a more popular, much older superhero who deserves to be adapted to a different medium first. If Jaime Reyes/Blue Beetle got a movie, DC fans would still be wondering where the hell our Flash and Wonder Woman movies are. Marvel could make a Spider-Girl/Arana movie, but where's Dr. Strange? And if we're going with a legacy character like Blue Beetle, why use Jaime when you could use the more classic Ted Kord?
 
I'm of the opinion that if the race isn't ingrained into the characters origin and heritage then it's fair game for any race to be cast in the role.

Black Panthers race is part of his character
Luke Cage race isn't part of his character
Bruce Wayne race isn't part of his character
Janet Pyms race isn't part of her character
Wonder Womans race is part of her character
Lex Luthors race isn't part of his character
Electro's race isn't part of his character

And so on.

There are numorous roles in movie history that have been white-washed so to speak and no one cared, but change a white character and it's an issue. That to me speaks to an underlining problem of racial issues
 
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Rich white dude. Scion of a old rich white family. Lives in an old rich manor.

What does Bruce have to do to more embody rich old whiteness? Wear a waist sweater?
 
You're asking why changing a character's ethnicity is controversial in a forum that gets upset when a character's costume is slightly altered?

So it's controversial because people are dumb? Because that's why the other thing happens.

My standard is fairly simple. I want a compelling reason for changing a character's ethnicity. So far all we have, is that there's a good actor who otherwise fits the part, but just doesn't happen to be the same ethnicity.

But why? Why do you need a reason beyond "people of color deserve to be better represented in popular media and there's no reason not to make the change?" Clearly you think there's a reason not to change the character, and I'm asking what that reason is.

Also, why don't you find that reason compelling?
 
I'm of the opinion that if the race isn't ingrained into the characters origin and heritage then it's fair game for any race to be cast in the role.

Black Panthers race is part of his character
Luke Cage race isn't part of his character
Bruce Wayne race isn't part of his character
Janet Pyms race isn't part of her character
Wonder Womans race is part of her character
Led Luthors race isn't part of his character

And so on.

Well, Led Luthor is nouveau rich.
 
In what way is it ingrained into the character of Bruce Wayne? You keep saying that but you never explain exactly what that means.

Black Panther lives and embodies his cultural heritage every moment of every day. In what way does Batman live and embody his cultural heritage. What about his behavior, his personality, his outlook, and his thematic meaning in the story is uniquely old money wasp? If he was of another ethnicity, and if his family's backstory changed so that they were relatively new money, what about who he is and how he sees the world would have to change to accommodate that?
His entire way of living. The old English style manor that has been in the family for generations. The people that he must associate himself as Bruce Wayne are also part of that same world.

The old English butler that has been in the family for decades. Those are just to name a few. Those are all ways of living that someone of any other background wouldn't care emulating to the T if they weren't of a WASP background and if they weren't and decided to live this kind of lifestyle then they are following something that was created by a specific type of European wealth and it wouldn't of spanned the entire lifecycle of the US that is mainly attributed to the American Anglo-Saxon group I'm referring to.
 
This misses the point just a bit.

I'm sorry, but what makes blank have to be blank (someone said Wonder Woman, another said Black Panther), but not Bruce Wayne? Is white privileged old money background not an important part of his backstory? Why doesn't that count?

Is it not part of his image? Sure looks like it is to me.

This seems arbitrary to me.
 
I'm sorry, but what makes blank have to be blank (someone said Wonder Woman, another said Black Panther), but not Bruce Wayne? Is white privileged old money background not an important part of his backstory? Why doesn't that count?

Is it not part of his image? Sure looks like it is to me.

This seems arbitrary to me.
It totally is. As I said many are viewing the whole WASP old money aspect as completely devoid of any cultural significance.
 
His entire way of living. The old English style manor that has been in the family for generations. The people that he must associate himself as Bruce Wayne are also part of that same world.

The old English butler that has been in the family for decades. Those are just to name a few. Those are all ways of living that I someone of any other background wouldn't care emulating to the T if they weren't of a WASP background and if they weren't and decided to do so then they are following something that was created by a specific type of European wealth that is mainly attributed to a the Anglo Saxon group I'm referring to.

1: Pretty much all of those things could easily be embodied by a non-white person. Rich black families can still live in mansions, even old English style mansions. It might have been in the family for three generations instead of eight, but what difference does that make? A a black or latino man who's the majority shareholder in a major corporation is still going to rub shoulders with rich white dudes constantly, because that's the nature of the corporate world, so I don't see why Bruce Wayne's social calendar would be any different. And being white isn't a prerequisite of hiring and English butler. Having a huge house you don't have time to take care of yourself and finding a guy from the UK who's suited for the job is really the only prerequisite required.

2: With the exception of Alfred, which, again, could be there regardless of the Wayne Family's race, those things aren't the core things that define Batman. Batman isn't defined by how long his family has lived in Wayne Manor, and he's only marginally defined by the social circles he travels in out of mask (and would very likely still travel in regardless of his race). He's defined by his pain, and by his conviction, and by the boundless compassion that hides behind all of that. Everything else is just details.

Rich white dude. Scion of a old rich white family. Lives in an old rich manor.

What does Bruce have to do to more embody rich old whiteness? Wear a waist sweater?

But he only embodies rich old whiteness because of those traits. If he didn't have those traits, nothing else about who he is or what he's about would change. If he was a rich non-white dude, the scion of a young rich non-white family who lives in an old rich manor, he would still otherwise be Batman. If nothing else about the character would change, besides maybe giving him some new conflicts and ethical dilemmas that might actually add a new layer of richness to the character, then why are those three aspects so vital?

I'm sorry, but what makes blank have to be blank (someone said Wonder Woman, another said Black Panther), but not Bruce Wayne? Is white privileged old money background not an important part of his backstory? Why doesn't that count?

Is it not part of his image? Sure looks like it is to me.

This seems arbitrary to me.

Because:

1: Bruce isn't as strongly defined by his cultural background as Black panther is. He just isn't. He doesn't wear the holy vestments of his proud Scottish ancestors, he doesn't regularly and openly practice the sacred cultural rights of his people, he doesn't fight against his people's ancestral enemies in a modern world. It's there, but it's not there as much as it is for someone like T'Challa. The two aren't equal in that regard. A black Batman would be largely the same as a white Batman. The same can't be said for a white T'Challa.

2: Black Panther's cultural heritage is a much rarer thing in popular media than Batman's. It need's to be preserved. There are plenty of white Anglos in popular media, if we lose a few we'd be just fine.
 
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But he only embodies rich old whiteness because of those traits. If he didn't have those traits, nothing else about who he is or what he's about would change. If he was a rich non-white dude, the scion of a young rich non-white family who lives in an old rich manor, he would still otherwise be Batman. If nothing else about the character would change, besides maybe giving him some new conflicts and ethical dilemmas that might actually add a new layer of richness to the character, then why are those three aspects so vital?

Well, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I consider the backgrounds of most characters vital to the characters.

I'm still not sure why you want to make Bruce Wayne not white, but if you think the character would be better non-white, that's your opinion.
 
His entire way of living. The old English style manor that has been in the family for generations. The people that he must associate himself as Bruce Wayne are also part of that same world.

The old English butler that has been in the family for decades. Those are just to name a few. Those are all ways of living that I someone of any other background wouldn't care emulating to the T if they weren't of a WASP background and if they weren't and decided to do so then they are following something that was created by a specific type of European wealth that is mainly attributed to a the Anglo Saxon group I'm referring to.
This could all easily be re-explained, and are hardly what could reasonably be considered integral to the character at his core.
 
Read the original article and not the following pages...just a correction

Will Smith was not a runner up to the Neo role. They wrote the role for him. He turned down the role
"Honestly, I didn't think they could do it, it was too ambitious. I saw Bound and I loved it. The Matrix is exactly what they pitched, but they were designing those cameras to get those freeze-frames, and I was like, "If that doesn't work, the movie looks ridiculous." I didn't feel comfortable with the level of importance placed on that effect working properly. ... That's probably the only one that I turned down that I shouldn't have, but when you see somebody do it like Keanu you think, "Thank God." I don't think I was mature enough as an actor at that point to get out of the way and just let it be and allow the directors to make the movie. I would have been trying to make jokes. Now I would have loved to take a shot and see what I would have done with it and I know now I could absolutely have been mature enough to get out the way. But back then I don't think I was."
 
His entire way of living. The old English style manor that has been in the family for generations. The people that he must associate himself as Bruce Wayne are also part of that same world.

The old English butler that has been in the family for decades. Those are just to name a few. Those are all ways of living that someone of any other background wouldn't care emulating to the T if they weren't of a WASP background and if they weren't and decided to live this kind of lifestyle then they are following something that was created by a specific type of European wealth and it wouldn't of spanned the entire lifecycle of the US that is mainly attributed to the American Anglo-Saxon group I'm referring to.

Not just that. The whole theme regarding the legacy of the Wayne family is much more powerful and can have a bigger impact on Bruce if his family has been in Gotham for centuries since the city's beginning as opposed to just 3 generations ago. The whole "playboy act is ruining family's image but I have to in order to secretly fulfill their legacy as Batman by continuing to help the city" angle just wouldn't have the same impact under 3 generations as, for example, Solomon Wayne working with Gotham's architects and his history with the Civil War. Would there be zero impact with the former approach? No. Would it still be strong? Yes. Can it still play a part in the whole theme of legacy? Yes. But not the same extent IMO.
 
Didn't he turn it down for the Wild Wild West?

Best decision ever.

Yes...it's why his wife is in the sequels.
At the same time the sequels are so much less than the first one (though I still enjoy them, even the third) that it's almost a family curse. Missed the good one, in the bad ones.

I would like to have seen how a Will Smith-led Matrix would differ. There's nothing storywise to change but his acting style and personality would have been reflected differently than Keanu's.
 
At the same time the sequels are so much less than the first one (though I still enjoy them, even the third) that it's almost a family curse. Missed the good one, in the bad ones.

I would like to have seen how a Will Smith-led Matrix would differ. There's nothing storywise to change but his acting style and personality would have been reflected differently than Keanu's.

I can't imagine Will Smith as a socially withdrawn and tech-savvy computer hacker. I don't know if Keanu was the best possible choice for the role, but he was a lot better than Smith would have been. Will Smith is incredibly overrated.
 
I can't imagine Will Smith as a socially withdrawn and tech-savvy computer hacker. I don't know if Keanu was the best possible choice for the role, but he was a lot better than Smith would have been. Will Smith is incredibly overrated.

The role may have been rewritten for Keanu...The One was written for Dwayne Johnson...when he left and Jet Li was added it was rewritten to add all the martial arts and Jet Li stuff.
 
I think that could be tweaked because you're right he wouldn't be socially withdrawn but it I don't think he's overrated yet. He's had a bumpy run since Men In Black 3 but I still like his acting, normally. I think it was the straight-faced role in After Earth that really fell flat.

He's the kind of actor who does best with a lighter, more friendly personality than someone stone-faced and emotionally distant. Whereas in The Matrix Keanu's Neo was mostly just emotionally limited and socially awkward.
 
But the very core of The Matrix is a guy who is surrounded and immersed in technology suddenly breaking free of it and fighting back. It's not like adding some Kung-Fu. The Matrix wouldn't work if you had the extroverted, carefree and irrepressibly happy demeanor of the Fresh Prince.
 
Will Smith seems to play Will Smith in most roles. Which is probably a good thing, since when he tries to play someone else he crashes and burns (see After Earth).
 

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