Rafael Albuquerque's Batgirl #41 Variant Controversy...

[Cain]

Rafael Albuquerque - I think the cover has brought up many interpretations. But in the end, the problem is not the cover itself, but the comic where it would be published. A series aimed at the teenage female audience should not have a cover like this. Regardless of the question of who is right or wrong, the cover that I did do not serve its intent.

more here:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/03/18/albuquerque-was-asked-to-make-batgirl-cover-more-extreme/

 

[Arach Knight]

This Youtube video has some interesting insights into the controversy. Rather than being some swear laden polemic against inclusion, or some rant on entitlement and being offended, this video really address the topic holistically.

The man and the woman in the video (well the audio) address multiple points of interest about the discussion

- DC's poor reputation with female fans

- The perspective of new readers (after all, New 52 is about new readers)

- The perspective of a woman

- The need for DC Entertainment to have an open dialog with its readership

- Avoiding censorship

[YT]/watch?v=X-ZGeKcB7UI[/YT]

May be worth a watch for those who want to do more than argue about their anger or offense.

 

[Arach Knight]

and yet no one is saying a thing about this cover which I think is 100% worse...Joker violently beating Robin to death with a crowbar...eye violence evoked with his mask hanging from the end of the crowbar.

Disapproval of the Barbara/Joker cover is not just about violence, but is more about sexual violence against women. You would have done better to point to Marcus Grayson's rape in Invincible #110 (though there was outrage and discussion about that issue). You could have also referenced the rape of Dick Grayson (which similarly was met with outrage and discussion).

 

[hippie_hunter]

So there has been a lot of controversy over the new Batgirl cover, as well, there were some people who were upset in regards to the DC Bombshell covers which were put out back in 2014. However, there is absolutely 0 controversy about the Justice League #40 variant "Magic Mike" cover.

Because there is nothing wrong with the Magic Mike cover for Justice League #40. That is why there was no controversy over it.

Now I think its hilarious and I will purchase it, however, if this cover had WW, Batgirl, Supergirl who were stripping on the cover I doubt it makes it to production. So my question as a male is why is one allowed and the other is the worst thing ever??

Oh soooooooo many reasons.

First of all, the image was parodying Magic Mike, a film about male strippers. Changing the men to women goes completely against what the cover is meant to parody.

And second, it's objectifying to women. Now while there is a degree of objectification with men in comic books, it has more to do with the male power fantasy as opposed to the sexual imagery that is associated with female objectification in comics.

It used to be "I do not like what you have to say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it" now its "I do not like what you have to say and I'm offended change it now or else". After the Charlie Hebdo terror attack everyone stood on their soapbox and screamed creative freedom and freedom of expression even though what they were doing could be considered offensive, it didn't matter.

Do not compare this to Charlie Hebdo, for a lot of reasons.

Now a small group considers this offensive and DC is going to fold faster than Superman on laundry day? Give me a break.

The cover was problematic for many reasons.

1. The cover goes completely against the tone of the Batgirl book which is a rather progressive female centric book. This Joker variant cover completely goes against the subject matter of the current run on Batgirl. Now if this were Gail Simone run for the title or a crossover issue with Snyder's Batman title in events such as Endgame and Death of the Family, this cover would have made much more sense, and we'd probably be seeing far less controversy. But with the Stewart/Fletcher run, it's just completely inappropriate.

2. The Batgirl Joker cover also kinda goes against the tone of the Joker cover month. Half of the Joker covers are rather comedic and the ones that are not as serious are nowhere near as grim as the Batgirl cover.

If there were some minor differences like the first page of this thread showing a more angry and defiant Batgirl as opposed to the more scared, timid, and submissive Batgirl, almost all of the controversy would have been sucked away with only the most extreme of feminists complaining. But because of the context of the cover and how it goes against everything DC has been pushing with the character, that is why there is controversy.

 

[Arach Knight]

First of all, the image was parodying Magic Mike, a film about male strippers. Changing the men to women goes completely against what the cover is meant to parody.

And second, it's objectifying to women. Now while there is a degree of objectification with men in comic books, it has more to do with the male power fantasy as opposed to the sexual imagery that is associated with female objectification in comics.

If we could meet face to face, I'd give you a high five for understanding this dynamic. So many people fail to realize that depictions of well built men in skin tight suits is the fulfillment of the male power fantasy. The depiction of well built women in skin tight suits is the fulfillment of the male sex fantasy. In both cases, be it male or female, the imagery supports male fantasies, not female fantasies.

 

[Cain]

hippie 4 prez!

 

[hippie_hunter]

This country wouldn't know what to do with me.

 

[hippie_hunter]

If we could meet face to face, I'd give you a high five for understanding this dynamic. So many people fail to realize that depictions of well built men in skin tight suits is the fulfillment of the male power fantasy. The depiction of well built women in skin tight suits is the fulfillment of the male sex fantasy. In both cases, be it male or female, the imagery supports male fantasies, not female fantasies.

That Batman makes me feel uncomfortable

 

[Human Torch]

Ugh,if I never hear the term "Male Power Fantasy" again.....It's like the over used "buzzword" of the year.

Anyway,I'm probably in the minority but I never liked the Killing Joke,particularly in relation to it's treatment of Barbara Gordon. So this cover isn't exactly to my taste. And also,frankly,it's not really very appealing to have the hero of the book looking so mortified. If it takes that little to shake her,she's in the wrong business.

Still,if people wanna buy it,I'm not for censoring it....

 

[Tron Bonne]

EDIT: Nevermind, I was going to say something, but looking back the point has been proven well enough

 

[Arach Knight]

Ugh,if I never hear the term "Male Power Fantasy" again.....It's like the over used "buzzword" of the year.

Anyway,I'm probably in the minority but I never liked the Killing Joke,particularly in relation to it's treatment of Barbara Gordon. So this cover isn't exactly to my taste. And also,frankly,it's not really very appealing to have the hero of the book looking so mortified. If it takes that little to shake her,she's in the wrong business.

Still,if people wanna buy it,I'm not for censoring it....

In what other major scenarios has the phrase "male power fantasy" popped up in the discourse? I realize that the month is nearly over, but we are only within the first three months of 2015. Rather bold to refer to the phrase in question as the "buzzword of the year."

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, I'm quite curious about that myself.

 

[Human Torch]

In what other major scenarios has the phrase "male power fantasy" popped up in the discourse? I realize that the month is nearly over, but we are only within the first three months of 2015. Rather bold to refer to the phrase in question as the "buzzword of the year."

You're taking the statement too literally. I'm just saying that term comes up all the time these days. And it's ridiculous,quite frankly. All works of fiction are fantasy. The fact that there is a larger number of men creating comic art/stories doesn't somehow diminish the fact that both the male and female form are idealized in comic art. Or that somehow "the hero saves the love interest" is a "power fantasy". It's a staple of the "Good vs Evil" format of comics. There's no need to try and make it out to be something "bad" and undesirable with PC buzzwords.

It's yet another way of trying to emasculate the comic industry.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Except the comic book industry has far too many issues dealing with misogyny. From the way stores treat women (I've seen it), to the way female workers are treated, to the depiction of women, you cannot say that the comics industry has some serious gender issues.

 

[Human Torch]

Oh,sure. I wouldn't disagree with that to a large extent.

 

[Nadal_Fan]

Okay I admit I was a little dramatic in my earlier post and I apologize for my hyperbole and rant. I understand the difference between Charlie Hebdo and DC , they are both private companies and can print whatever they want. One company is a lot more controversial and has no problem with offending while the other one does not want that kind of press and is more careful as to what they print. To compare both is wrong and I apologize.



Part of the reason why I was so fired up is because this issue is a microcosm of societal ills today IMO. Instead of people thinking for themselves they let the group think for them and that is a very dangerous idea. This piece of art is controversial but so what. It is a fictional art piece which forces us who normally wouldn’t talk about the issue to talk about the real issue of violence against women. By getting DC to pull the image it is a very slippery slope. Joker is the bad guy in fact he’s the most evil person in the DCU. But somehow after The Dark Knight came out the Joker became popular a sort of anti/cult hero which scares me. He is the sickest sadistic villain. But he is the Villain. Seeing the acts he perpetrates sheds light on real violence against women. It makes me feel uncomfortable looking at that image knowing what he did but do you know what it does; it shows the real consequences. How many superhero stories have a person being shot and then wham they are running around the next panel. That isn’t real life. The Killing Joke showed real consequences for gun violence. It shows the struggle that Barbra had to endure to get where she is now and to overcome all the dark times in her life. Because of those dark times she is stronger now but doesn’t mean she still cant be haunted by her past. However, she is still traumatized by the Joker and could you blame her. However, it’s the fact that she is still scared but still goes out there puts her life on the line that makes her such an interesting character. By saying she shouldn’t look so scared, IMO sends a signal to people who were abused that they cannot be vulnerable, and scared. The healing process is different for everyone. I’m sure when Batman has to go out and face Bane or Superman is up against Doomsday they are not scared as well given their past? It’s a very real image and by censoring it I think it’s a blown opportunity to talk about real violence. The Killing Joke It is a very powerful story and shouldn’t get forgotten. What about in 5 years someone complains about the Watchmen and say they will not buy DC comics anymore until they stop printing and distributing it. Enough support comes and DC is forced to pull it from circulation. That is an extreme example but it’s not that outlandish, given the content in that book.



As well, I get that the JL #40 variant is supposed to be a parody of Magic Mike, however, how come there is no female equivalents? The reason is the backlash that would have endured and DC is well aware of that. They could have had a WW/Batgirl/Black Canary cover of Striptease or Showgirls (I’m not sure if they are WB movies but you get the point). This would be considered objectifying women but by allowing the Magic Mike cover by your standard you are okay with objectifying men. By saying that no women (or men) would be turned on by the Magic Mike imagine is painting with a very broad brush stroke. Women and men do get turned on by comics’ and the characters in the books. Whether it is Wonder Woman’s physique or her strong female leadership qualities or Superman’s bulging muscles or Batman’s brooding, people will find those qualities attractive and I don’t think that is a bad thing. Just because someone is turned on by a women or man does not mean they are objectifying them. Its just nature, men can be turned on by women or men and women can be turned on by men or women it’s a natural human response to the stimuli. Some women will be turned on by that Magic Mike cover and so will some men, does that mean we should stop it because of it objectifying men?


Having a cover not match a tone in the book happens all the time. All books had a lego variant which was fun but didn’t match the Batman story being told at the time or the Justice League story being told as well. This is a variant cover not the original cover for the story. If it was the original cover yes I agree that tone would matter then but when its not the original cover then variant covers do not need to match the tone of the book. They are fun little Easter eggs. I hope I was able to portray my point in a more clear light and less ranting like it came off as last time.

 

[Tempest]

I appreciate your feedback, but I think you're still missing the point.

The cover isn't a warning of the aftermath or the cost of evil actions; it glorifies it. And it glorifies it in a way that is almost sexual.

The artist has some things to say about this as well, and I think it's important to be supportive of his decisions as well.

Albuquerque himself said: “My Batgirl variant cover artwork was designed to pay homage to a comic that I really admire, and I know is a favourite of many readers. The Killing Joke is part of Batgirl’s canon and artistically, I couldn’t avoid portraying the traumatic relationship between Barbara Gordon and the Joker.

“For me, it was just a creepy cover that brought up something from the character’s past that I was able to interpret artistically. But it has become clear, that for others, it touched a very important nerve. I respect these opinions and, despite whether the discussion is right or wrong, no opinion should be discredited.

“My intention was never to hurt or upset anyone through my art. For that reason, I have recommended to DC that the variant cover be pulled. I’m incredibly pleased that DC Comics is listening to my concerns and will not be publishing the cover art in June as previously announced.”

If I recall The Killing Joke properly, there was some sexualization in The Killing Joke, where Barbara was not only wounded, but sexually assaulted. That alone makes this cover immensely inappropriate.

 

[Arach Knight]

You're taking the statement too literally. I'm just saying that term comes up all the time these days. And it's ridiculous,quite frankly. All works of fiction are fantasy. The fact that there is a larger number of men creating comic art/stories doesn't somehow diminish the fact that both the male and female form are idealized in comic art. Or that somehow "the hero saves the love interest" is a "power fantasy". It's a staple of the "Good vs Evil" format of comics. There's no need to try and make it out to be something "bad" and undesirable with PC buzzwords.

It's yet another way of trying to emasculate the comic industry.

Emasculate the comics industry? That rhetoric is in itself problematic. Historically speaking, women were denied access to a number of industries, including comcibooks. Therefore, by purposeful exclusion, women were denied the right to contribute meaningful input in the comicbook industry. With that sort of insular structure preventing women from contributing to the space, male readers developed the erroneous assumption that comics are a male space. There is nothing intrinsically "masculine" about comicbooks: by their very nature as fantasy works, they should be inherently inclusive because fantasy is about the ability to see beyond reality or escape from one's present conditions.

On what grounds would a woman be denied the ability to see themselves empowered? And therein lies the problem: women in comicbooks are not always depicted as empowered individuals. Men get to be the hero, save the universe, get the attractive women etc. Women get depowered, objectified, raped, crippled or murdered so that male characters may "learn an important lesson" or "develop more character."

Pointing out misogyny or any other form of bigotry is not meant to make something "bad," but meant to highlight the need to be inclusive. And it isn't to say that you can't have stories where female characters are beset by horrific problems. However, when such stories are told in a pandering fashion and are largely to the detriment of female characters, and therefore the female audience, then that is the problem.

If these stories are being told with more "realism," then the sort of depictions shown should be across the board. But that is not the case. In most cases, you have lots of misogyny (among other forms of bigotry) that negatively affects non-male readers. I honestly can't understand why someone would want to feel dejected about challenges to misogyny (or any other form of bigotry). I remember reading the trade paperback (as they were known back then) for Kyle Rayner's first appearance as the the Green Lantern. Nothing was added to that story by depicting Major Force mutilating Alex DeWitt. I've read the Killing Joke, and nothing was added to that story by having Barbara stripped nude and sexually assaulted on panel (a fact that even Alan Moore has gone on record to say that he now regrets and detests).

We can still have amazing adventures, grim tales and fun stories without the need to pander solely to male sexual fantasies and power fantasies.

 

[Gee]

I appreciate your feedback, but I think you're still missing the point.

The cover isn't a warning of the aftermath or the cost of evil actions; it glorifies it. And it glorifies it in a way that is almost sexual.

The artist has some things to say about this as well, and I think it's important to be supportive of his decisions as well.



If I recall The Killing Joke properly, there was some sexualization in The Killing Joke, where Barbara was not only wounded, but sexually assaulted. That alone makes this cover immensely inappropriate.

I never, like many who read the story, bought into that. Was Gordon also sexually assaulted? Moore confirmed there is no rape, anyway.

Same with Batman choking Joker at the end theory.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I never, like many who read the story, bought into that. Was Gordon also sexually assaulted? Moore confirmed there is no rape, anyway.

Same with Batman choking Joker at the end theory.

Yeah, same. I do understand where it comes from, with him stripping her and everything, but the thought never occurred to me that she was raped or sexually assaulted in any way until I read people saying that online. If anything, I always thought it was more preserves towards her dad, that he had to see his daughter like that. But I at least get how people got that, though based on a lot of comments from Moore about the book, I think people don't quite realize how little thought he really put into The Killing Joke at the end of the day.

 

[Arach Knight]

I never, like many who read the story, bought into that. Was Gordon also sexually assaulted? Moore confirmed there is no rape, anyway.

Rape is one form of sexual assault, not the only form of sexual assault.

WHAT IS SEXUAL ASSAULT?

Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape.

Source: http://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault

And yes, James Gordon was also sexually assaulted in that story. I have yet to see anyone in this thread deny that fact.

 

[Tempest]

I never, like many who read the story, bought into that. Was Gordon also sexually assaulted? Moore confirmed there is no rape, anyway.

Same with Batman choking Joker at the end theory.

Arach Knight said it as well, but I want to reiterate this point: All rape is sexual assault, but not all sexual assault is rape.

A woman was stripped, and posed in suggestive ways without her consent. A man was stripped, and posed in suggestive ways without his consent.

So yes, both Barbara and James were sexually assaulted.