Justice League Real Talk - Where does the DCEU go from here? - Part 2

[metaphysician]

Ok they didn't do that with superman no. 1

Cap did turn dark and gritty, he told his country to essentially go and take a running jump and became a war criminal.

No, Cap did not turn dark and gritty. His *country* turned dark and gritty, and he told them "**** off" rightfully. Ethically, its no different than the Illegal Order doctrine.

The only ethical mistake Steve made was not telling Tony right away that Bucky was the ( brainwashed slave! ) assassin who killed the Starks, like he suspected but did not seek out proof for. And that is, while a personally painful mistake, not a vast ethical sin on any objective level.

 

[king666]

Man of Steel was a shallow movie, BvS was a shallow movie, Justice League was a shallow movie. Those movies are anything but "deep and meaningful".

The reason why the DCEU doesn't work should be crystal clear by now: nobody gives a **** about these characters. Really, there's not a single tangible character in here (except for WW, ty Patty Jenkins). Every single one of them is a goddamn puppet; they have no impact on the story. For example, Superman: he's got no level of agency, he does absolutely nothing, he acomplishes nothing. There's no real conflict for Supes apart from all that super vague stuff "omg should I save humanity? uh-oh zod is destroying stuff so I guess I have no other option". We're 3 movies in and that character still feels like a hollow shell. MOS was a bunch of nothing, BvS was a bunch of nothing, JL was a bunch of nothing.

And ****, watching that Infinity War trailer... That is real gravitas. Marvel Studios focused on the important things (the characters) and now the payoff is HUGE. Remove the mythology, the aesthetics and the action scenes and you still have some great characters. That's what WB/DC should be trying to achieve.

 

[metaphysician]

Aquaman - Hawaiian
Batman - white
Black Canary - white
Cyborg - black
Flash - white
Green Arrow - white
Green Lantern (Stewart) - black
Hawkwoman - Native American
Martian Manhunter - Martian (black in human guise)
Superman - white
Wonder Woman - Mediterranean
Zatanna - white

I could work with that.

Mediterranean isn't really a race. . .

That said, a minor aside. I don't really view casting Jason Mamoa as "racebending" exactly, even though technically it is ( white -> pacific islander ). My reason is, I get the sense that WB wasn't thinking of Mamoa's race when casting Aquaman, they were thinking of the various barbarians ( or space barbarians ) he's played. When they looked at Mamoa, they didn't see "Diversity Hire Aquaman", they saw "Underwater Conan".

 

[metaphysician]

[YT]-0pgi5G68y8[/YT]

Moviebob talks about what's next for DC. He thinks Wonder Woman 2 and Shazam are locks (Aquaman as well obviously) but that's about it. He speculates (like many) that if Matt's Batman movie happens, it'll be very continuity-lite and will have a different actor as Bruce, and that Gotham Sirens, Suicide Squad 2, Cyborg, Justice League Dark, Green Lantern Corps. and Man of Steel 2 just flat out will not happen now. He also thinks a Flashpoint movie that serves as at least a soft reboot a la Days of Future Past is definitely on the table right now.

I noted that his version of Flashpoint has even less to do with the comics, than the MCU's version of Civil War did. Which is a very good idea, mind, I am just somewhat skeptical that WB would actually diverge that much.

I agree with the core of his theme and practice changes, but I am skeptical whether Flashpoint will actually happen. Its certainly not necessary.

 

[Harry Dresden]

They don't need to do Flashpoint if they're smart.

 

[metaphysician]

We do live in the real world. And somehow you think race-bending a fictional character is going to solve real world problems?

And since we're pandering to race, why are all characters that get race-bended automatically African American? Why not hispanic? Why not middle-eastern? Why not oriental? And while we're on it, even in the oriental category, why not Korean? Why not Indian? Why not Japanese? Why not Chinese? And while we're at it, why not Malaysian Chinese? Why not Singaporean Chinese? Why not Indonesian Chinese? The list is endless.

But no, ironically race-bending mostly only applies to one race.

*points up* This is a big part of why I view demands for race changes with a healthy dose of skepticism. In Hollywood, 'Diversity' is virtually always code for 'Black', usually 'Black Male'.

My take on race in casting is, like many things, its complicated. Some characters absolutely have to be a given race. Some characters don't, they can be any race. Some characters fall in between, where some race-swaps may be possible, while others aren't, all with varying difficulty for the writer.

There are also multiple reasons *why* a character might need to be a given race. One is core premise and story: Bruce Wayne is super rich New England elite from a long family line of super rich New England elite, he kind of has to be the WASPiest WASP who ever did WASP, with maybe a tad bit of Jewishness being allowable. One is representation, which is to say "There are few enough minority characters, don't swap the race of one unless you have a *real* good reason. Like being a racist stereotype." One is simple iconography: whether you like it or not, Superman is such an element of the pop culture psyche that his form is locked, and locked as a white dude.

If there's *not* one of these strong reasons to lock down a character's race, though, then you should feel free to change it, if desired. Of course, if the *only* reason you change it is for the sake of change, well, stunt casting almost never produces good results. Also, see above regarding "Diversity does not mean Black".

 

[metaphysician]

Sub 650 million kills Flashpoint dead. Not sure why anyone would think any different, given the effects that very bad box office generally has on any sequel possibilities.

...and Flashpoint would essentially be a sequel to Justice League.

Honestly, just being a Flash movie probably kills it dead. I mean, the Flash movie has been stuck in development hell for years. Trying to make it a quasi-JL sequel was just the latest effort to somehow save it.

If I had to bet, I'd bet that nothing comes of the Flash for years, and if a movie actually does get made, it'll only be *after* the DC movies are fully revamped/revived/soft rebooted by upcoming titles. It won't be part of the revamp.

 

[Jekecy]

*points up* This is a big part of why I view demands for race changes with a healthy dose of skepticism. In Hollywood, 'Diversity' is virtually always code for 'Black', usually 'Black Male'.

My take on race in casting is, like many things, its complicated. Some characters absolutely have to be a given race. Some characters don't, they can be any race. Some characters fall in between, where some race-swaps may be possible, while others aren't, all with varying difficulty for the writer.

There are also multiple reasons *why* a character might need to be a given race. One is core premise and story: Bruce Wayne is super rich New England elite from a long family line of super rich New England elite, he kind of has to be the WASPiest WASP who ever did WASP, with maybe a tad bit of Jewishness being allowable. One is representation, which is to say "There are few enough minority characters, don't swap the race of one unless you have a *real* good reason. Like being a racist stereotype." One is simple iconography: whether you like it or not, Superman is such an element of the pop culture psyche that his form is locked, and locked as a white dude.

If there's *not* one of these strong reasons to lock down a character's race, though, then you should feel free to change it, if desired. Of course, if the *only* reason you change it is for the sake of change, well, stunt casting almost never produces good results. Also, see above regarding "Diversity does not mean Black".

I loathe the race-swapping debates with a passion for how ugly it gets, but I really appreciate this thoughtful write-up.

I 110% agree with this sentiment, and it's unfortunate both sides tend to just yell over each with petty talking points. You're one of the few who've actually taken a step back and assessed this from afar, which always provides a clearer vantage point. Kudos.

They don't need to do Flashpoint if they're smart.

Meaning? What do you propose they do which would be smart?

 

[DeadlyDiarrhea]

A Flash movie may not be too dependent on the success of JL if that movie is competently made, as was the case with WW. The problem though is if Flashpoint is marketed as being connected to JL; that IMO would be a mistake.

 

[Anis]

They don't need to do Flashpoint if they're smart.

I agree. DCEU doesn't earn the Flashpoint story yet. If you haven't got people to invest in the established universe why would people care for the story about a guy trying to get that certain universe back?

You don't have to force the audience to dissosiate the future DC movies with what we already have. Nobody is going to care if the future movies are in the same universe if they're good. No need to recast anyone either unless the actors/actresses want out themselves. I feel like the JL left all the characters in the right place so they can just move forwards. These characters need to be in a better movie not a new universe.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe Gal's Wonder Woman will be incorporated into the Marvel Cinematic Universe instead.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Man of Steel was a shallow movie, BvS was a shallow movie, Justice League was a shallow movie. Those movies are anything but "deep and meaningful".

The reason why the DCEU doesn't work should be crystal clear by now: nobody gives a **** about these characters. Really, there's not a single tangible character in here (except for WW, ty Patty Jenkins). Every single one of them is a goddamn puppet; they have no impact on the story. For example, Superman: he's got no level of agency, he does absolutely nothing, he acomplishes nothing. There's no real conflict for Supes apart from all that super vague stuff "omg should I save humanity? uh-oh zod is destroying stuff so I guess I have no other option". We're 3 movies in and that character still feels like a hollow shell. MOS was a bunch of nothing, BvS was a bunch of nothing, JL was a bunch of nothing.

And ****, watching that Infinity War trailer... That is real gravitas. Marvel Studios focused on the important things (the characters) and now the payoff is HUGE. Remove the mythology, the aesthetics and the action scenes and you still have some great characters. That's what WB/DC should be trying to achieve.

lol. k.


As for Flashpoint...I think it could be great if it was Back to the Future style. A strong character driven movie with a lot of heart that has sci-fi and time travel, but those aren't the focal points. The sci-fi and time travel assists the storytelling. I think everyone just hears "Flashpoint" and thinks Justice League 2.0. It doesn't have to be that way. The other character cameos don't have to be the focus, nor do I think they are going to be.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I agree. DCEU doesn't earn the Flashpoint story yet. If you haven't got people to invest in the established universe who would people care for the story about a guy trying to get that certain universe back?

You don't have to force the audience to dissosiate the future DC movies with what we already have. Nobody is going to care if the future movies are in the same universe if they're good. No need to recast anyone either unless the actors/actresses want out themselves. I feel like the JL left all the characters in the right place so they can just move forwards. These characters need to be in a better movie not a new universe.

Bingo.

The audience doesn’t have any connection to the characters yet besides Wonder Woman. Flashpoint is honestly a massive story and one that should have build up. Days of Future’s Past worked so well because the audience actually cared about the X-Men characters in it.

 

[wonder213]

All this gloom and doom. Remember the DCEU is still very young with all of 5 movies - 3 from Zack Snyder. Wonder Woman was a success. Suicide Squad had potential and did well enough without China. They'll get there, eventually.

What if - instead of Snyder, Warner Bros. picked a different director or better yet, different directors, for the Superman trilogy? What if the "deconstruction" of Superman and Batman never happened?

I think Warner Bros. took a wrong turn and they knew it - but making a U-turn mid-franchise is easier said than done and, let's be honest, as long as the movies made money, why bother?

They've learned their lesson and things ARE changing: hiring directors like James Wan, not rushing into things (e.g., they waited until July to announce a Wonder Woman sequel), and focusing more on solo movies.

It's not Snyder's fault that he was handed the keys to the kingdom - and tasked with casting DC's most popular superheroes, something he happens to be good at and perhaps his biggest and long-lasting contribution to the DCEU. He deserves some credit for the success of Wonder Woman.

Personally, I enjoyed Justice League and would watch it again (and again) if Diana Prince had a more substantial role. It's just not worth sitting through a 2-hour movie.

 

[SilverBatarangs]

That is true, though, in many ways they could easily
have a fresh start with JL. They can take it in, virtually, any
direction they want to now. It's very much open-ended right now.

 

[Bruce Malone]

Maybe Gal's Wonder Woman will be incorporated into the Marvel Cinematic Universe instead.

When Disney ends up buying up every media company we might just get that.

 

[Dark Raven]

When Disney ends up buying up every media company we might just get that.

Marvel might do a better job of doing the DC universe justice on the big screen.

 

[DerekLake]

Honestly, just being a Flash movie probably kills it dead. I mean, the Flash movie has been stuck in development hell for years. Trying to make it a quasi-JL sequel was just the latest effort to somehow save it.

If I had to bet, I'd bet that nothing comes of the Flash for years, and if a movie actually does get made, it'll only be *after* the DC movies are fully revamped/revived/soft rebooted by upcoming titles. It won't be part of the revamp.

You make it sound like Flash is such a hard character to nail down. He’s not, at all. “A young forensic scientist is struck by lightning to become the fastest man alive.” Just let Geoff Johns write a classic origin story if you can’t find anyone else. It’s that simple. The problem is that they keep trying to find superstar directors to present radically unique, TDK-worthy takes on these characters. But if they focused on just making good stories, like Wonder Woman, then they’ll be able, eventually, to tell great stories with them.

 

[Flemm]

A Flash movie may not be too dependent on the success of JL if that movie is competently made, as was the case with WW. The problem though is if Flashpoint is marketed as being connected to JL; that IMO would be a mistake.

Maybe not a Flash movie in general, but Flashpoint is pretty much innately a crossover.

It's a story Geoff Johns wrote, and it led into one of the DC comics "relaunches" of the main titles. Rebirth, I think. Alternate versions of most of the big Justice League characters appear.

Now, they could change a lot of the details, but it's hard to imagine a Flashpoint story that didn't involve other Justice League members, as that is part of the core concept.

I think they might need to go in a different direction, tbh, if they want to do a Flash movie. People just weren't interested enough in Justice League for Flashpoint to work.

 

[GothamBat]

this made me laugh

https://***********/Mister_BatfIeck/status/936023073706336256

 

[STARMAN]

The last thing I would do now is Flashpoint.

 

[Vaibow]

It's simple - focus on the characters people liked and actors that are dedicated.

WW is certainly the most popular - ww1 being set 100 years ago gives you a century of possible story lines - ww2 could be set in 60's ww3 the 80's. Sure, she stated she closed and hid from the world after the death of ST, but that doesn't mean she didn't travel and encounter situations where she saved the day. Eco warrior, war torn africa, vietnam war? civil right movements? retrieving stolen artifacts? Busting a drug or slave den - possibilities are endless.

MOS happened 2 years before BvS - you mean to tell me there are not at least 2 stories in there that could make a movie?

Aquaman - under water, different world with atlantis - can be it's own separate thing.

GL - out in space and can be from any time frame could be based a good 10 years before the events of MOS - have fun with that.

Flash - so jl happened - he goes off to rescue his dad from jail - that's his story, along the way, he discovers more about himself - can be completely independent of the rest.

So we have in reality a trilogy of WW movies - 2 solo sequels to MOS, an independent AM and GL movie and Shazam thrown in for good measure - which happens after the events of JL then you can have fun with a flashpoint movie as actors will all be ready to hang up the capes.

 

[Dark Raven]

Article by Scott Mendelson on the CW's DC crossover "Crisis on Earth X" and how the Justice League could learn from that.

The Year's Best 'Justice League' Movie Didn't Need Batman Or Superman

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...years-best-justice-league-movie/#532a41f21e0f

It's the year's best Justice League movie and, in some ways, one of the best superhero movies of the last several years...

It’s the characters that partake in the spectacle, not the spectacle itself, that creates fandoms and gets audiences excited. The Harry Potter series understood this to a frighteningly effective degree, and the MCU figured it out as well.

If Justice League was a promise made (the movie feels like a pilot for what’s to come), then “Crisis On Earth X” was a promise at-long last kept.

The four-part mini-series got to use years of earned (and unexpected) character interactions, inside jokes, plot beats and crowd-pleasing moments because it took the time to establish this universe accordingly. It wasn’t just the idea of The Flash, Green Arrow and Supergirl fighting futuristic Nazis, it was the idea of these specific versions of these characters, along with beloved supporting characters, partaking in this grand adventure.

The CW TV universe is thriving while the DC Films universe is struggling precisely because the TV version laid the groundwork, brick by brick until they had the materials for a satisfying multi-part crossover.

He is right about it feeling more like a promise at-long last kept instead of a pilot. That was what the Avengers felt more like.

 

[TheTarkKnight]

My take on the whole DCEU.

MOS: Keep it as is sans neck snapping. A one-way ticket for Zod to the Phantom Zone is the best way to go. Plus, you can bring him back in the future if you want to.

WW: Keep it as is.

SS: Great casting. But needed better villain and story, otherwise good. (Earth is ending, but no Batman, WW, etc?)

BvS: Keep Lex and his whole plan sans knowing who Batman and Superman's alter egos are and him looking into Metahumans. Batman has the same motivation, Superman still brooding is not preferred, but OK. But have Batman figure out Lex's plan because, hey, he's the "world's greatest detective". Bats plays along to fight Superman, so steals the K-rock and stashes it in the cave (2 birds one stone). When ready to fight Supes, let him know about what's going on, then stop Lex together. Doomsday? Keep it the same, but Supes doesn't die, and he sends Doomsday to a distant galaxy using the Mother Box that Batman is aware of its existence since his lab is working with Star Labs on it, and that's what alerts SW to come to earth. You can now bring Doomsday back if you want to later as well. Twist on Miller's TDK with all the elements, plus - gasp!- World's finest!

JL: Still have SW come for the motherboxes. But make it a global scale threat. I felt like the only ones threatened were that one Ukrainian family! Poor family of four! Still add the new characters, more backstory (~15 mins tops will do) for the GA and a grander scale invasion/threat. So much so that it's difficult to stop for the JL. Then when you bring Darkseid in the next movie along with the Furies and Granny, the JL has bigger issues to deal with.

And I just wrote that in 10 mins while having my coffee break.

 

[JOE]

If I'm WB the first thing I do, before trying to sell, is pencil in a MOS sequel.