Superman Returns Reflections over the Donner homages...

[SuperDaniel]

This is not a thread to bash the movie with mindless thoughts. The mods are free to move this topic if they feel its just a review. I believe it isn`t.

I`ll start by saying i like the movie. I like it so much that i`ll buy the DVD. BUt i`ll do it because i`m a huge Superman fan not because the movie is that good.

Superman Returns even though having great ideas didn`t work as a concept to me. The movie never hit the high notes i thought it would mainly because of Luthor again portrayed as a stupid criminal Dr EVil style, instead the great cientific genius he is, and how poorly the relationships between the characters were developed. It felt it was too much story and SR felt like it was something that continued from previous movies and i think thats a problem. You`d say: Of course, dumbass! Its a sequel to STM and SII.

I`ll tell you something: Different actors in the roles, different chemestry. Its not Margot Kidder and Chris Reeve there. Its Routh and Bosworth. You cant have the main actor portray Chris Reeve Superman`s. It is to me a sin. A sin against Routh himself. He was portraying Chris Reeve not Superman. Chris Reeve got it. "I`m the temporary custodian of the mantle..."

Donner doesn`t own Superman nor his story is the end all be all in Superman history. I love Superman the movie. It is a 9.5 out of 10. Why? Because Donner captured Superman perfectly. However what most people tend to forget is that Superman is a legacy that is beyond Richard Donner and Bryan Singer. What about the better versions of Luthor that came after STM???? What about the great stories and adaptations that are actually BETTER than the STM story like Superman for all seasons and the beautifull animated series? Heck! Even Birthright is better!

No matter how you try, you cant surpass the original and continue the story. Its like making a sequel to Return of Jedi with a whole different cast. It just wouldn`t work.

Superman Returns simply doesn`t work. A lot of the story is in between the lines. We never had the start of these relationships. Oh it happened in Superman II. Thats just bul****. Its lazy storytelling. I`ve been watching the last 2 episodes of the 3rd season of Lois & Clark. The story is similar. Superman abandons Earth to go to Krypton. Those episodes work because not only it shows how Superman is so different from every kryptonian, more human, capable of loving, but also because it is 2 episodes of a long TV series. We followed their history through the years. A sequel to a 25 year old movie doesn`t work ( Don`t give the whole Star WArs bul****. Its a different story) and thats why the movie failed. It is not a bad movie but it just didn`t hit the high notes. One example is Superman speech to Earth before leaving to Krypton on the episode "Big Girls don`t fly". Superman would never abandon Lois or Earth without saying anything. It just isn`t Superman. Moreover, i seriously believe Singer was so stubborn and has an ego the size of Krypton to think he has the right to change Superman`s basic story by giving Lois a fiancee and Superman a son out of the boat in the first movie. Those changes are too much. Too much. Superman story doesn`t need to be changed. It isn`t broke.

Superman is bigger than Singer and i thought Singer was being a showoff. "I changed because i can. Because im the director of a 250 million dollar picture." The results are everywhere. Superman Returns not only divided opinions and is also a box office disappointment. If the movie was as good as Singer thought it was, it would`ve made Pirate`s numbers. Titanic, dare i say, is a damn good movie and deserves its numbers. James Cameron is a genius. Singer is just competent and i didn`t think he was competent enough to direct a Superman movie. You don`t put the best action sequence of the movie(plane scene) in the beggining. Thats basic storytelling. The movie has to climb to a climax and SR didn`t have one at all. I don`t call Superman throwing a huge piece of rock in the space as climax. Superman dieing? What? It doesn`t work cause WE KNOW he wont stay dead. Its just false advertising.

The audiences and ME, as a member of the audience, AS A HUGE SUPERMAN FAN, writer, musician and artist, needed a movie that we could connect to Superman again and show how and whyhe is the greatest hero of all time. A movie like Superman for all seasons, like Peace on Earth or Action Comics #775. Not a movie about a failed relationship and his fetish over Donner.

Superman story is in the comics, Singer. Go read it. It why he is the great hero he is. Superman gave birth to superhero comics. To neglet that, his science fiction parts, his timeless adventures, is just WROOOOOOOOONG!!

Would Singer be able to correct or even admit his mistakes in the sequel? Time will tell. But i`m inclined to say he wont( The thought of Zod in the sequel gives me shivers to believe it will ne SII all over again with better special effects and more modern). Singer to me he blew his chance with this movie. Superman Returns was supposed to be the HUGE comeback of the hero. It just WASNT. Simple as that.

Thats just my 2 cents.

 

[patrickbateman]

this is like the my thread.

i want someone to pull of a Nolan on the franchise

 

[patrickbateman]

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248509

 

[nogster]

This is not a thread to bash the movie with mindless thoughts. The mods are free to move this topic if they feel its just a review. I believe it isn`t.

I`ll start by saying i like the movie. I like it so much that i`ll buy the DVD. BUt i`ll do it because i`m a huge Superman fan not because the movie is that good.

Superman Returns even though having great ideas didn`t work as a concept to me. The movie never hit the high notes i thought it would mainly because of Luthor again portrayed as a stupid criminal Dr EVil style, instead the great cientific genius he is, and how poorly the relationships between the characters were developed. It felt it was too much story and SR felt like it was something that continued from previous movies and i think thats a problem. You`d say: Of course, dumbass! Its a sequel to STM and SII.

I`ll tell you something: Different actors in the roles, different chemestry. Its not Margot Kidder and Chris Reeve there. Its Routh and Bosworth. You cant have the main actor portray Chris Reeve Superman`s. It is to me a sin. A sin against Routh himself. He was portraying Chris Reeve not Superman. Chris Reeve got it. "I`m the temporary custodian of the mantle..."

Donner doesn`t own Superman nor his story is the end all be all in Superman history. I love Superman the movie. It is a 9.5 out of 10. Why? Because Donner captured Superman perfectly. However what most people tend to forget is that Superman is a legacy that is beyond Richard Donner and Bryan Singer. What about the better versions of Luthor that came after STM???? What about the great stories and adaptations that are actually BETTER than the STM story like Superman for all seasons and the beautifull animated series? Heck! Even Birthright is better!

No matter how you try, you cant surpass the original and continue the story. Its like making a sequel to Return of Jedi with a whole different cast. It just wouldn`t work.

Superman Returns simply doesn`t work. A lot of the story is in between the lines. We never had the start of these relationships. Oh it happened in Superman II. Thats just bul****. Its lazy storytelling. I`ve been watching the last 2 episodes of the 3rd season of Lois & Clark. The story is similar. Superman abandons Earth to go to Krypton. Those episodes work because not only it shows how Superman is so different from every kryptonian, more human, capable of loving, but also because it is 2 episodes of a long TV series. We followed their history through the years. A sequel to a 25 year old movie doesn`t work ( Don`t give the whole Star WArs bul****. Its a different story) and thats why the movie failed. It is not a bad movie but it just didn`t hit the high notes. One example is Superman speech to Earth before leaving to Krypton on the episode "Big Girls don`t fly". Superman would never abandon Lois or Earth without saying anything. It just isn`t Superman. Moreover, i seriously believe Singer was so stubborn and has an ego the size of Krypton to think he has the right to change Superman`s basic story by giving Lois a fiancee and Superman a son out of the boat in the first movie. Those changes are too much. Too much. Superman story doesn`t need to be changed. It isn`t broke.

Superman is bigger than Singer and i thought Singer was being a showoff. "I changed because i can. Because im the director of a 250 million dollar picture." The results are everywhere. Superman Returns not only divided opinions and is also a box office disappointment. If the movie was as good as Singer thought it was, it would`ve made Pirate`s numbers. Titanic, dare i say, is a damn good movie and deserves its numbers. James Cameron is a genius. Singer is just competent and i didn`t think he was competent enough to direct a Superman movie. You don`t put the best action sequence of the movie(plane scene) in the beggining. Thats basic storytelling. The movie has to climb to a climax and SR didn`t have one at all. I don`t call Superman throwing a huge piece of rock in the space as climax. Superman dieing? What? It doesn`t work cause WE KNOW he wont stay dead. Its just false advertising.

The audiences and ME, as a member of the audience, AS A HUGE SUPERMAN FAN, writer, musician and artist, needed a movie that we could connect to Superman again and show how and whyhe is the greatest hero of all time. A movie like Superman for all seasons, like Peace on Earth or Action Comics #775. Not a movie about a failed relationship and his fetish over Donner.

Superman story is in the comics, Singer. Go read it. It why he is the great hero he is. Superman gave birth to superhero comics. To neglet that, his science fiction parts, his timeless adventures, is just WROOOOOOOOONG!!

Would Singer be able to correct or even admit his mistakes in the sequel? Time will tell. But i`m inclined to say he wont( The thought of Zod in the sequel gives me shivers to believe it will ne SII all over again with better special effects and more modern). Singer to me he blew his chance with this movie. Superman Returns was supposed to be the HUGE comeback of the hero. It just WASNT. Simple as that.

Thats just my 2 cents.

agreed. spot on analysis.

 

[Kabuki_Jo]

This is not a thread to bash the movie with mindless thoughts. The mods are free to move this topic if they feel its just a review. I believe it isn`t.

I`ll start by saying i like the movie. I like it so much that i`ll buy the DVD. BUt i`ll do it because i`m a huge Superman fan not because the movie is that good.

Superman Returns even though having great ideas didn`t work as a concept to me. The movie never hit the high notes i thought it would mainly because of Luthor again portrayed as a stupid criminal Dr EVil style, instead the great cientific genius he is, and how poorly the relationships between the characters were developed. It felt it was too much story and SR felt like it was something that continued from previous movies and i think thats a problem. You`d say: Of course, dumbass! Its a sequel to STM and SII.

I`ll tell you something: Different actors in the roles, different chemestry. Its not Margot Kidder and Chris Reeve there. Its Routh and Bosworth. You cant have the main actor portray Chris Reeve Superman`s. It is to me a sin. A sin against Routh himself. He was portraying Chris Reeve not Superman. Chris Reeve got it. "I`m the temporary custodian of the mantle..."

Donner doesn`t own Superman nor his story is the end all be all in Superman history. I love Superman the movie. It is a 9.5 out of 10. Why? Because Donner captured Superman perfectly. However what most people tend to forget is that Superman is a legacy that is beyond Richard Donner and Bryan Singer. What about the better versions of Luthor that came after STM???? What about the great stories and adaptations that are actually BETTER than the STM story like Superman for all seasons and the beautifull animated series? Heck! Even Birthright is better!

No matter how you try, you cant surpass the original and continue the story. Its like making a sequel to Return of Jedi with a whole different cast. It just wouldn`t work.

Superman Returns simply doesn`t work. A lot of the story is in between the lines. We never had the start of these relationships. Oh it happened in Superman II. Thats just bul****. Its lazy storytelling. I`ve been watching the last 2 episodes of the 3rd season of Lois & Clark. The story is similar. Superman abandons Earth to go to Krypton. Those episodes work because not only it shows how Superman is so different from every kryptonian, more human, capable of loving, but also because it is 2 episodes of a long TV series. We followed their history through the years. A sequel to a 25 year old movie doesn`t work ( Don`t give the whole Star WArs bul****. Its a different story) and thats why the movie failed. It is not a bad movie but it just didn`t hit the high notes. One example is Superman speech to Earth before leaving to Krypton on the episode "Big Girls don`t fly". Superman would never abandon Lois or Earth without saying anything. It just isn`t Superman. Moreover, i seriously believe Singer was so stubborn and has an ego the size of Krypton to think he has the right to change Superman`s basic story by giving Lois a fiancee and Superman a son out of the boat in the first movie. Those changes are too much. Too much. Superman story doesn`t need to be changed. It isn`t broke.

Superman is bigger than Singer and i thought Singer was being a showoff. "I changed because i can. Because im the director of a 250 million dollar picture." The results are everywhere. Superman Returns not only divided opinions and is also a box office disappointment. If the movie was as good as Singer thought it was, it would`ve made Pirate`s numbers. Titanic, dare i say, is a damn good movie and deserves its numbers. James Cameron is a genius. Singer is just competent and i didn`t think he was competent enough to direct a Superman movie. You don`t put the best action sequence of the movie(plane scene) in the beggining. Thats basic storytelling. The movie has to climb to a climax and SR didn`t have one at all. I don`t call Superman throwing a huge piece of rock in the space as climax. Superman dieing? What? It doesn`t work cause WE KNOW he wont stay dead. Its just false advertising.

The audiences and ME, as a member of the audience, AS A HUGE SUPERMAN FAN, writer, musician and artist, needed a movie that we could connect to Superman again and show how and whyhe is the greatest hero of all time. A movie like Superman for all seasons, like Peace on Earth or Action Comics #775. Not a movie about a failed relationship and his fetish over Donner.

Superman story is in the comics, Singer. Go read it. It why he is the great hero he is. Superman gave birth to superhero comics. To neglet that, his science fiction parts, his timeless adventures, is just WROOOOOOOOONG!!

Would Singer be able to correct or even admit his mistakes in the sequel? Time will tell. But i`m inclined to say he wont( The thought of Zod in the sequel gives me shivers to believe it will ne SII all over again with better special effects and more modern). Singer to me he blew his chance with this movie. Superman Returns was supposed to be the HUGE comeback of the hero. It just WASNT. Simple as that.

Thats just my 2 cents.

Dude, I completely agree with you and I think that pretty summons my opinion on SR, except for the fact that I didn't like it at all.

What I wonder is, if this is your POV on this flick, why are you going to buy the DVD?
Is it worth your hard earned money?
Cause I'm sure it's not worth mine.

 

[Immortalfire]

Excellent

 

[The Kid]

You all knew this was coming, didn't you?

Well as I usually say... "At least we got Jason."

BUT YES I AGREE THAT IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON FROM DONNER. His stuff was great for its time and I'm sure I'll love his version of supes 2 a ton, but COME ON trying to force supes to fit back into his old tights indeed does not work for me.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Certain things are opinion and you're entitled to yours. I personally didn't need everything explained to me. The deleted scenes would have enhanced Clark's struggle to fit back in in general, but we can't turn back time.

On the question of Routh, I didn't think he was impersonating Reeves. I think Reeves defined a certain portrayal of how Clark and Supes act. Dean Cain's Superman is a basically George Reeves' portrayal from the Fifties, but he wasn't impersonating.

Singer's spin on things. Because so many of us know the Donner movies by heart, I think we miss some of Singer's influences. The whole " leaving without telling" is different. I saw more Clark in that decision than Superman. Lois' actions towards Clark wasn't like Donner's, but more like Siegel and Shusters. Lois actually saving Superman.

The cool thing about these characters is they have diffrent interpretations. If Singers wants the corny, Silver Age Lex then make it a good one. To me, Superman II is a horrible film. If it hard to believe Supes would leave without saying good-bye then it's just as hard to beleve he'd give up his powers for one woman when the world needs him. For Singer's sake, he at least used an interpretation of the comic. Zod was a brand new villain, but people ran with it. And that's what we should give Singer. Impress me with the Silver Age Lex. He did for me in the first and maybe it will for you when he returns.


Superman is in one of those special categories where you don't need to recap everything about him(like Jesus in a way). The Passion of the Christ was about a specific time in the story.

I believe we fans are over analyzing the situation. I know people that didn't see it because they just don't like Supes or wanted to see him fight. That's it. I never heard anyone say they wanted to see Smallville or when he and Lois first met. People wanted to see Superman hit someone.

Outside of that, the biggest mistake Singer made is that if you're going to do a love story then make sure the actors have chemistry.

You may not have liked it but the rock was the climax. Seeing Superman use all his strength to save us to the point of death. Spidey's not going to lose to Gobey, but I felt for him trying to fight.

I don't know what Singer has in store, but I'm hopeful. Doing X1 and X2 gives him more credit in the bank to fix things.

 

[SuperDaniel]

X-men are marvel characters, totally different from Superman. Singer should`ve stayed with X-men.

 

[AgentPat]

...I believe we fans are over analyzing the situation. I know people that didn't see it because they just don't like Supes or wanted to see him fight. That's it. I never heard anyone say they wanted to see Smallville or when he and Lois first met. People wanted to see Superman hit someone...

ROFLMFAO!! Priceless.

Uh... welcome to SHH, ComicBookKid.

 

[Showtime]

What people wanted to see was a supervillian which would therefore translate into more action.

Did it ruin the movie for me? NO.

For the general public? Check the box office.

Even with a character such as Zod in Returns, we are talking 210-220million and the sequel is already greenlit.

 

[AgentPat]

What people wanted to see was a supervillian which would therefore translate into more action.

Mmmm... what people wanted to see depends on whom you ask.

Did it ruin the movie for me? NO.

The lack of a supervillian or Superman throwing a single punch didn't ruin the movie for me. The lack of an entertaining, original story with a fun, charismatic and believable cast, on the other hand.......

For the general public? Check the box office.

Even with a character such as Zod in Returns, we are talking 210-220million

Considering the flakey nature of the superhero genre today, not to mention the less-than-stellar reception Superman as a franchise (films, videos, toys) has received recently, NOTHING is a sure thing right now, unfortunately.

and the sequel is already greenlit.

Unless it happened last night, a sequel hasn't been formally greenlit yet. Lots of talk; no action. Wait till after the home vid streets. When they have some actual *profits* to brag about, maybe we'll see some action.

 

[Showtime]

Mmmm... what people wanted to see depends on whom you ask.

That is my opinion was what lost the general public, maybe not the only reason, but the biggest at least.

The lack of a supervillian or Superman throwing a single punch didn't ruin the movie for me. The lack of an entertaining, original story with a fun, charismatic and believable cast, on the other hand.......

That is what kept you away, but you aren't really the general public and neither am I.

Unless it happened last night, a sequel hasn't been formally greenlit yet. Lots of talk; no action. Wait till after the home vid streets. When they have some actual *profits* to brag about, maybe we'll see some action.

You either misread my post or you are purposely misquoting me, I would imagine you misread it. I was pointing out if there was a supervillian, which in my opinion would have led to 210 - 220 million domestic, the sequel would have been already greenlit.

Even with a character such as Zod in Returns, we are talking 210-220million and the sequel is already greenlit.

 

[Bad Superman]

From what I recall, there were at least three Adventures of Superman homages:

*Jason White (he appears on AOS as nephew of Perry and is a military pilot)

*The Planets on the opening sequence (an extended version of AOS)

*The "Superman with glasses" deleted scene (it appears on AOS's Season 2 "Panic in the Sky". Some shots from the series were translated in to Singer's film)