Season 6, Episode 7 "The Broken Man" Discussion Thread

[Kane52630]

 

[Roose Bolton]

In the books it wasn't even someone of Stark blood that came calling, it was a Baratheon and he still managed to rally at least half of the Northern Houses to fight for him in the name of Stark restoration. They marched through an icy hell with him for the sake of saving Ned Stark's daughter, by rights they should have been even more eager to save his son and heir.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in wanting them to depict one of the biggest elements of novels, especially when the author is using it to justify the morality of his protagonists. Going by the show logic, House Stark's stupid way of thinking should have gotten them all killed decades ago.

The books are a different animal arent they and cannot be adapted in detail and made to work for television as is.

The fact is, some Northerners do miss the Starks and did join them -even despite the fact that most of the army is made up of Wildlings -another major deterrent to joining that particular cause and which shouldn't be discounted.

 

[Marvolo]

"Fair" refers to the assumption by fans that all of the Northern Lords need to be loyal contributors to any Stark (female Sansa Lannister/Bolton) who comes along even at the expense and potential destruction of their own holdfast.

The Boltons are the the official Wardens of the North and have Winterfell by royal decree until they are deposed.

They need to be loyal because that is their sworn duty. Their Lord is a prisoner and the Starks need their help. Not just Sansa but the House, their Lord, and the North. This isnt assumption its just fact.

And the Boltons were made Warden by the Lannisters because they betrayed the Starks and their lord. The Lannister decree and the Bolton's illegal claim on Winterfell and the North wouldnt count for **** in the books where the North remembers and loyalty exists.

But this is the show and in the show the Northern Houses are as condescending, petty, spiteful, opportunistic, and shallow as the prominent Southern Houses.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

No, but it was the last legitimate Stark capable of leading. And judging from the fact that Lyanna is recognized as a Lady and is essentially in charge of Bear Island, the Northerners don't seem to discriminate on the basis of gender.

Yeah because she's the only Mormont left and they do actually have a seat of power left there. How would Lyanna fare as a displaced nomad rallying other Lords to her cause if some other house was ruling Bear Island by royal decree? Not so well, I think.

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah because she's the only Mormont left and they do actually have a seat of power left there. How would Lyanna fare as a displaced nomad rallying other Lords to her cause if some other house was ruling Bear Island by royal decree? Not so well, I think.

Sansa is in the same position as Lyanna because Rickon is being held captive by the Boltons, who betrayed the entire North, killed the Warden of the North who was also the person they declared King of the North, and they sided with the Lannisters. There is no defensible honorable reason for the way the North is treating the Starks.

And if another House had taken control of the Mormont House through betrayal and murder the North would side with the Mormonts. Not the usurpers and traitors. Or at least, they would if they had any sense of justice, honor, duty, or loyalty to their friends and allies and the North.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The books are a different animal arent they and cannot be adapted in detail and made to work for television as is.

The fact is, some Northerners do miss the Starks and did join them -even despite the fact that most of the army is made up of Wildlings -another major deterrent to joining that particular cause and which shouldn't be discounted.

I've no idea what's so unadaptable about the Starks getting the proper support and I highly doubt anyone in the GA would call BS on Northern loyalty. And I'm not even saying that the GA care about the current depiction, but I think it's a change that was unnecessary and the way it's handled in the books would have made for something far more interesting and inspiring.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

They need to be loyal because that is their sworn duty. Their Lord is a prisoner and the Starks need their help. Not just Sansa but the House, their Lord, and the North. This isnt assumption its just fact.

And the Boltons were made Warden by the Lannisters because they betrayed the Starks and their lord. The Lannister decree and the Bolton's illegal claim on Winterfell and the North wouldnt count for **** in the books where the North remembers and loyalty exists.

But this is the show and in the show the Northern Houses are as condescending, petty, spiteful, opportunistic, and shallow as the prominent Southern Houses.

It's more complicated than that. You can't assume that all houses and all people in one region should have identical attitudes and motivations. Of course they won't, that's not realistic. These clans have different prejudices and agendas and some are perfectly understandable like the Karstarks (beheaded by Robb), Umbers (lives next to Wildlings now), and even the Glovers (depleted from Robbs war and fighting Ironborn). And, some are still loyal to the old Stark regime too otherwise Jonsa would have come up empty-handed.

 

[Marvolo]

I've no idea what's so unadaptable about the Starks getting the proper support and I highly doubt anyone in the GA would call BS on Northern loyalty. And I'm not even saying that the GA care about the current depiction, but I think it's a change that was unnecessary and the way it's handled in the books would have made for something far more interesting and inspiring.

Well, even last season they made a point of having that woman tell Sansa the North remembers and remains loyal to the Starks. Its like D&D forgot that moment happened or have decided to ignore it.


Lets just cut right through it. D&D are doing this because they want Jon to be the underdog regardless of whether it lines up with whats been previously said or established and regardless of any loyalty or respect the North should have. Its just a cheap way of creating drama.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I've no idea what's so unadaptable about the Starks getting the proper support and I highly doubt anyone in the GA would call BS on Northern loyalty. And I'm not even saying that the GA care about the current depiction, but I think it's a change that was unnecessary and the way it's handled in the books would have made for something far more interesting and inspiring.

Well I'll tell you what Roose, the next time I bump into George down at the Jean Cocteau, I'll ask him what he thinks about this. He worked in television, he knows some changes must to be made, especially when an adapatation continues to diverge away into different directions.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

I love how they portrayed Jon. He had no problem talking to the wildlings but when it came to the houses he was nervous as f***. It is great for once to see someone trying to gather support for the first time and not be an expert at it.

It's like when faced with his "old life" as just a Stark bastard, he got all insecure and froze up a bit. Like the classic situation of going to a highschool reunion and slipping back in to old insecurities and worrying about the popular kids again.

 

[Marvolo]

It's more complicated than that. You can't assume that all houses and all people in one region should have identical attitudes and motivations. Of course they won't, that's not realistic. These clans have different prejudices and agendas and some are perfectly understandable like the Karstarks (beheaded by Robb), Umbers (lives next to Wildlings now), and even the Glovers (depleted from Robbs war and fighting Ironborn). And, some are still loyal to the old Stark regime too otherwise Jonsa would have come up empty-handed.

Every house regardless of motivation and personal feelings are sworn to obey and answer the call of the Warden of the North. Thats how these types of societies work. You dont get to igbore youryour superior just because you arent feeling it or disagree with him. By the Old Gods and the North Rickon and the Stark House are the Warden of the North. Every House that refused to help defeat the Boltons and rescue Rickon are ignoring their sworn alliegance and duty.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Well, even last season they made a point of having that woman tell Sansa the North remembers and remains loyal to the Starks. Its like D&D forgot that moment happened or have decided to ignore it.


Lets just cut right through it. D&D are doing this because they want Jon to be the underdog regardless of whether it lines up with whats been previously said or established and regardless of any loyalty or respect the North should have. Its just a cheap way of creating drama.

I don't doubt it. Though I don't think that was necessary when they've already made Ramsay a supervillain

Well I'll tell you what Roose, the next time I bump into George down at the Jean Cocteau, I'll ask him what he thinks about this. He worked in television, he knows some changes must to be made, especially when an adapatation continues to diverge away into different directions.

I'll spare you the time and effort, he'd say "Things would be different if I was still involved with the production. Now go away while I swim in my dump truck full of money."

There's nothing in the book depiction of the Northern Lords that requires much alteration. And as Marvolo pointed out, they lay the seeds for it last season.

 

[Matt]

Every house regardless of motivation and personal feelings are sworn to obey and answer the call of the Warden of the North. Thats how these types of societies work. You dont get to igbore youryour superior just because you arent feeling it or disagree with him. By the Old Gods and the North Rickon and the Stark House are the Warden of the North. Every House that refused to help defeat the Boltons and rescue Rickon are ignoring their sworn alliegance and duty.

For someone who knows so much about the source material, you certainly do miss the purpose off the book/show. There are no old gods or Northern honor that binds them. As Littlefinger said, these are stories we tell ourselves to justify our actions. In the end, they are sworn to Ramsay Bolton, because Ramsay Bolton is the Warden of the North. Ramsay Bolton is the Warden of the North because the Iron Throne named him as such. The Iron Throne had that right because they beat Robb Stark and the Northerners in a war. The Southernors conquered the rebelling North and now they set the rules. Just as Ned and Robert conquered the South, overthrew the Targareyns and made Robert the king of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no "right." It was against tradition for the houses to bend their knees to him. But they did because he took it and they knew they would've been wiped out had they not cooperated. That is the only tradition that matters.

Jon and Sansa (who is Ramsay's wife, mind you...and unlike with Joffery she was not forced into it...therefore she is disobeying tradition by rebelling against him, but I digress) approached House Glover with an army of 2000. They are outnumbered and have fewer resources. From House Glover's perspective, they would likely lose. Why fight a losing battle when the man who is the Warden of the North through conquest is saying no?

To use the best example of the underlying message of the show, from all the way back in season one, Ned Stark acted with honor and followed tradition. He got his chopped off for it.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Sansa is in the same position as Lyanna because Rickon is being held captive by the Boltons, who betrayed the entire North, killed the Warden of the North who was also the person they declared King of the North, and they sided with the Lannisters. There is no defensible honorable reason for the way the North is treating the Starks.

And if another House had taken control of the Mormont House through betrayal and murder the North would side with the Mormonts. Not the usurpers and traitors. Or at least, they would if they had any sense of justice, honor, duty, or loyalty to their friends and allies and the North.

Yes they both have X chromosomes, that's it.

Sansa is a Stark by birth, not anymore by marriage, and not operating from any kind of authority derived from a holdfast. The Jonsa unit is flimsy and they have gotten results roughly commensurate to their position. Oh and they are with a Wildling army. "There is no defensible honorable reason" for Northern Lords to join that -not from their perspective! From ours, sure. We're all for Team Jonsa and the fight against the Boltons, Wights, etc. but the argument isn't about that.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I'll spare you the time and effort, he'd say "Things would be different if I was still involved with the production. Now go away while I swim in my dump truck full of money."

There's nothing in the book depiction of the Northern Lords that requires much alteration. And as Marvolo pointed out, they lay the seeds for it last season.

And some of it does Remember, just not as much as you like.

I'll still ask him, it's not a big deal.

</span>

 

[Matt]

And some of it does Remember, just not as much as you like.

I'll still ask him, it's not a big deal.

</span>

Exactly. I don't see what the issue is. A maid in Winterfell told Sansa that the North remembers. That doesn't mean that every Northern house is foaming at the mouth to fight the Boltons. We have seen that the Bear Islands rejected Ramsay's rule because they remembered. But just as they are harmed by Ramsay's rule, some, like the Umbers and Karstarks, benefit from it. As such these few noblemen have made a decision and their people follow them (just as their honor dictates they do). As with all things, you have different people with different opinions. What is so jarring about that?

 

[Roose Bolton]

And some of it does Remember, just not as much as you like.

I'll still ask him, it's not a big deal.

</span>

You better get me the best popcorn in town, or I swear by the Old Gods I will flay you living.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Every house regardless of motivation and personal feelings are sworn to obey and answer the call of the Warden of the North. Thats how these types of societies work. You dont get to igbore youryour superior just because you arent feeling it or disagree with him. By the Old Gods and the North Rickon and the Stark House are the Warden of the North. Every House that refused to help defeat the Boltons and rescue Rickon are ignoring their sworn alliegance and duty.

Team Jonsa is not the Warden of the North. You want to talk rules of these societies? The Hand of the King of Westeros assigned the current Warden and that is not illegal. The Starks were deposed from lordship, as the Targaryens were deposed from the Iron Throne with Stark help. If you want to talk about lawful rulers, then Starks and Baratheons are traitors and usurpers to the true ruling house.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

For someone who knows so much about the source material, you certainly do miss the purpose off the book/show. There are no old gods or Northern honor that binds them. As Littlefinger said, these are stories we tell ourselves to justify our actions. In the end, they are sworn to Ramsay Bolton, because Ramsay Bolton is the Warden of the North. Ramsay Bolton is the Warden of the North because the Iron Throne named him as such. The Iron Throne had that right because they beat Robb Stark and the Northerners in a war. The Southernors conquered the rebelling North and now they set the rules. Just as Ned and Robert conquered the South, overthrew the Targareyns and made Robert the king of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no "right." It was against tradition for the houses to bend their knees to him. But they did because he took it and they knew they would've been wiped out had they not cooperated. That is the only tradition that matters.

Jon and Sansa (who is Ramsay's wife, mind you...and unlike with Joffery she was not forced into it...therefore she is disobeying tradition by rebelling against him, but I digress) approached House Glover with an army of 2000. They are outnumbered and have fewer resources. From House Glover's perspective, they would likely lose. Why fight a losing battle when the man who is the Warden of the North through conquest is saying no?

To use the best example of the underlying message of the show, from all the way back in season one, Ned Stark acted with honor and followed tradition. He got his head chopped off for it.

Well said.

 

[Reek]

The mummer's farce is almost over.

 

[Roose Bolton]

For someone who knows so much about the source material, you certainly do miss the purpose off the book/show. There are no old gods or Northern honor that binds them. As Littlefinger said, these are stories we tell ourselves to justify our actions. In the end, they are sworn to Ramsay Bolton, because Ramsay Bolton is the Warden of the North. Ramsay Bolton is the Warden of the North because the Iron Throne named him as such. The Iron Throne had that right because they beat Robb Stark and the Northerners in a war. The Southernors conquered the rebelling North and now they set the rules. Just as Ned and Robert conquered the South, overthrew the Targareyns and made Robert the king of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no "right." It was against tradition for the houses to bend their knees to him. But they did because he took it and they knew they would've been wiped out had they not cooperated. That is the only tradition that matters.

Jon and Sansa (who is Ramsay's wife, mind you...and unlike with Joffery she was not forced into it...therefore she is disobeying tradition by rebelling against him, but I digress) approached House Glover with an army of 2000. They are outnumbered and have fewer resources. From House Glover's perspective, they would likely lose. Why fight a losing battle when the man who is the Warden of the North through conquest is saying no?

To use the best example of the underlying message of the show, from all the way back in season one, Ned Stark acted with honor and followed tradition. He got his chopped off for it.

You might to give the books another read

"My son Wendel came to the the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."

"I know about the promise &#8230; Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"

"Do you want to die, Wull?"

" I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and **** all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue ."

"I am not Robert, but we will march and free Winterfell. Or die in the attempt."

The entire purpose of the Northern storyline in A Dance With Dragons is to justify the Stark way of ruling and show Ned Stark's worth as a Lord. His people are going through hell to avenge him and save his children.

 

[Reek]

 

[Matt]

You might to give the books another read









The entire purpose of the Northern storyline in A Dance With Dragons is to justify the Stark way of ruling and show Ned Stark's worth as a Lord.

And as far as we know, the Boltons beat that army that Davos gained (at least if the letter to Jon is to be believed). Therefore, it goes to logic that the Boltons had their allies as well. The point stands. As I said in my other post, some Northerner lords like the Starks. Others don't. I am sure with the small folk there are similar opinions. Because as Littlefinger pointed out...codes, honor, gods...they are just illusory words we use to justify actions. In the end, people do what is best for themselves. In the end, the only true rights are the ones that those in power give. The only one with "rights" to the North is Ramsay. Ramsay has the right to rule the North because the throne gave it to him. The throne gave it to him because they have power to do so. They beat Robb Stark and took the North. Just as Aegon, who conquered the North ALLOWED the Starks to maintain their power as "wardens" when he conquered them and Tohrren Stark bent his knee. If Jon overthrows Bolton and the Lannisters, he has the right. If the smallfolk want to rise up and overthrow everyone and put the Starks in charge, they will have the right (should they win). But right now, to the victor go the spoils and the power. That is the only true tradition that matters.

 

[Reek]

You might to give the books another read









The entire purpose of the Northern storyline in A Dance With Dragons is to justify the Stark way of ruling and show Ned Stark's worth as a Lord. His people are going through hell to avenge him and save his children.