Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[Matt]

Whether you personally like Baelish or not, and even if you are weirdly rooting for him, Littlefinger is not a protagonist, he's a more charming and ambitious version of Grima Wormtongue.

The Rohirrim were clearly protagonists and the readers or audience is pulling for them and hoping they will show up in time and kick some ass!

By contrast nobody cares about the Knights of the Vale because we don't know them. They are an impersonal force and even Littlefinger doesn't care about them, they are just a means to an end in a powerplay, more pawns (or knights ) which can be sacrificed if need be on the way to the Iron Throne.

You have a very narrow way of looking at things. There is no emotional investment in Littlefinger/what he has done? What?! He is a Grima analogue?! Dude. You are way off. If anything, Littlefinger is this story's equivalent to Saruman.

There is even an argument that while he is not the protagonist or antagonist per se, he is the deuteragonist, in the sense that he is really the most important person in the story aside from the protagonist and the antagonist. He is the one who has made literally everything in the story happen (albeit, indirectly in many cases).

In fact, I personally, would go so far as to call him the antagonist. Yes, there is the Night King...but in the end he is essentially a force of nature rather than a true character. The entirety of the White Walkers fall into that category. They are an oncoming disaster or cataclysm that the heroes must unite to stop, not a character driven antagonist. That would be Baleish.

So yeah, I would certainly argue that Baelish is maybe the true antagonist of this story and if not that, he is certainly, at best the deuteragonist/at worst, the secondary antagonist.

So let's recap the overall effect of the Knights of the Vale saving the Northern forces when they did. Jon Snow and his army are now decimated. Both he and Sansa are in Littlefinger's debt, the debt of the man who betrayed their father and caused his death. And while Winterfell has been reclaimed, it is very possible that the Knights of the Vale are the ones who are truly holding it (after all, they have the manpower). So one of the story's main antagonists now has the guy who is probably the main hero of the story/the protagonist in his debt and bent over a barrel.

There is quite a bit of weight in that.

 

[BestGirl]

The whole idea of plot armor doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I've come to think the game is being played by 2 gods and these characters are their pieces on the game board. So divine intervention into a world where there is magical wards,time travel,resurrection etc. is totally within the realm of possibilities and actually makes sense of things when you think about. There are rules the players must abide by. Certain boons are allowed for their board pieces if certain tests are passed. Each comes with a cost though. Balance/Yin Yang is a recurring theme. So when things happen and it leaves you wondering how these heroes survive remember they have a higher power looking out for them. Well until they decide to sacrifice them. Not everyone can be a king and totally protected until the end.

Arya is also being used in the game. The Many Faced God is in her corner.

I've been thinking something similar of late. I suspect the gods are mustering champions to fight the White Walkers. The Lord of Light has Jon and Dany while the Many-Faced god has Arya. If that's the case I can better handle Arya surviving her stabbing. When the gods are shielding you anything can happen.

 

[Matt]

I've been thinking something similar of late. I suspect the gods are mustering champions to fight the White Walkers. The Lord of Light has Jon and Dany while the Many-Faced god has Arya. If that's the case I can better handle Arya surviving her stabbing. When the gods are shielding you anything can happen.

But if we accept that the Lord of Light is real, he is the one true god. Beyond that, didn't Arya turn her back on the Many-Faced God?

 

[BestGirl]

the LOL says he is, or at least his followers believe it to be true. That may not be the case.

And Jaqen smiled knowingly when Arya said she was going home. Perhaps that's what the MFG wanted all along.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Nobody cared about the Knights of the Vale just as nobody cared about the Rohirrim riders other than Eomer, who just happened to be leading the charge. At the end of the day, the pawns don't matter, just the hand that moves them.And in this case, while Littlefinger may not have been physically leading the charge, he was certainly the one in charge of them.
Moreover, just because a character isn't a protagonist or "good guy" doesn't mean you don't/aren't allowed to get invested when they show up. I can't speak for you. But for me, one of my immediate reactions upon seeing the Knights of the Vale was "Oh great, what is Littlefinger's aid going to cost Jon and Sansa?".

The Rohorrim were established as orc-killing allies early on and there were a number of scenes which helped the reader or viewer to become invested in them emotionally including the drama at Edoras and a full battle (Helm's Deep). We are introduced to other characters within the Rohirrim in the process (Hama, Erkenbrand, etc.) but the main one is Theoden, and it's significant that he actually leads the charge and then dies. The scene of their arrival at dawn to disrupt the enemy siege is emotionally potent for viewers or readers alike, who had followed their desperate journey there.

There is no such thing with the Knights of the Vale, no emotional connection with any of them, nothing like that set up. Littlefinger is pulling their strings and maybe we have a emotional reaction to him, but it isn't anything remotely like what's built up around Theoden and the Rohirrim, and he isn't leading the charge, and we aren't pulling for him. There's no sense of peril around him, and even the emotion felt isn't anything new, it's like "oh, there's Littlefinger on schedule (no surprise) twisting his mustache on the sideline as usual. Ho hum."

I'm speaking about the feeling of allies coming to the rescue in the midst of a battle. And even with the reinforcements of the Rohirrim they were still greatly outnumbered, so the outcome was still in doubt. There's nothing like that here, the Vale easily tips the scales and functions as the mop up crew.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

You have a very narrow way of looking at things. There is no emotional investment in Littlefinger/what he has done? What?! He is a Grima analogue?! Dude. You are way off. If anything, Littlefinger is this story's equivalent to Saruman.
There is even an argument that while he is not the protagonist or antagonist per se, he is the deuteragonist, in the sense that he is really the most important person in the story aside from the protagonist and the antagonist. He is the one who has made literally everything in the story happen (albeit, indirectly in many cases).
In fact, I personally, would go so far as to call him the antagonist. Yes, there is the Night King...but in the end he is essentially a force of nature rather than a true character. The entirety of the White Walkers fall into that category. They are an oncoming disaster or cataclysm that the heroes must unite to stop, not a character driven antagonist. That would be Baleish.
So yeah, I would certainly argue that Baelish is maybe the true antagonist of this story and if not that, he is certainly, at best the deuteragonist/at worst, the secondary antagonist.
So let's recap the overall effect of the Knights of the Vale saving the Northern forces when they did. Jon Snow and his army are now decimated. Both he and Sansa are in Littlefinger's debt, the debt of the man who betrayed their father and caused his death. And while Winterfell has been reclaimed, it is very possible that the Knights of the Vale are the ones who are truly holding it (after all, they have the manpower). So one of the story's main antagonists now has the guy who is probably the main hero of the story/the protagonist in his debt and bent over a barrel.
There is quite a bit of weight in that.

Just because you misunderstand my point of view doesn't mean that it's "narrow" or somehow inferior to yours. Get off you high intellectual horse, dude. I'm always taking the grand view in terms of politics, geography and the overarching story but that has little to do with the emotional comparison of one battlesave to another. You are arguing an extraneous tangent and rather pointlessly.

Littlefinger is not even close to being Saruman in any way, other than some basic treachery. Have you even read the books or watched the series!? Speaking of "way off" holy **** that is so absurd I scarcely know where to start! Saruman is a Maiar/Istari wizard, an immortal spirit who was originally good but was corrupted by Sauron through use of the palantir. He functioned as a secondary overt antagonist with his own half-orc army, while Grima was a mortal human counsellor, and an under-handed manipulator -like Littlefinger.

Not that your quibbling here matters to this argument -whether Saruman or Grima, Littlefinger is not a protagonist (we agree on that) to which the audience is aligned, like Jon or Dany. We aren't pulling for him so his arrival doesn't carry that emotional weight which is substantially less than what we feel for protagonal main characters. If Littlefinger died in the next episode the audience reaction wouldn't be anything even remotely close to the tumult around Jon's death, or any of the Starks, or if Dany died.

I'm not here to debate Littlefinger's general importance to the story which is completely beside my point about the emotional significance of the Vale save, but I do think you are overrating him and prematurely since we don't have the final two books or final two seasons finished yet to know the outcome, and thus his bearing on it. He could die in the next few episodes and your theory would then be gone in a puff of smoke! Yes, he matters to the story, people may have an emotional response to him in general, but his brief smirking presence on the sideline was predictable and doesn't carry nearly the emotional weight of audience sympathy that Theoden did, charging ahead with the Rohirrim and dying on the battlefield.

 

[Victarion]

The Grima I saw in TTT was a mewling waste of a human being. I would have zero respect for him, whereas I can respect Littlefinger's ability to adapt to the chaos he has sown across Westeros. At the end of the day, Littlefinger's game is essentially sticking it to the authority. That's a basic message that I can get behind. What I can't condone is how Littlefinger went about doing it.

So with Baelish there's a kind of respect/hate thing going on that makes him a richer and more well-rounded individual than Grima. Whom you can look at and peg as evil.

 

[DACrowe]

Well I won't get into the first part, because frankly I don't especially think Bastard Bowl is going to play out remotely the same way it has on the show (if indeed, it happens at all). But you misunderstand what I mean by them giving Sansa Theon's material. I don't believe that Theon will go to the Wall and reunite with Jon and make awkward conversation about how badly he treated him in their time together at Winterfell or start telling Jon not to trust Davos or anything like that.

I mean in the very basic sense that Sansa usurped Theon's role as being the primary victim and focus point of Ramsay's abuse, and the one to ultimately have a hand in his downfall. By placing Sansa in the Winterfell storyline, the plot ultimately became about her with Theon serving as a supporting figure for her arc. This is obviously not the case in the books, and I don't think we'll see the Greyjoy siblings heading home any time before the Boltons are dealt with. There's significant set up in the Reek chapters to indicate that Ramsay's tv fate may come about in a way that ties into Theon more than anything else.

And again, like I said, Dany had an actual fleet to take her home back in Season 4. A very specific number of ships, which were only disposed of this season to specially make room for that new plotline (rather clumsily, might I add).

You might be right about the fleets and giving Dany an excuse to leave. While I really did enjoy the Dany burn the Khals stuff, the Meereen stuff has been this season's weak link. In the book, it is long and detailed, and never goes anywhere. In the show, it is short and rushed, but still doesn't seem to go anywhere until it gets there too fast.

Anyway, I do not know if the plan was always to send Yara or Theon to Meereen, you might be correct. However, I suspect that the show always planned (or at least since season 4) to send Sansa north and then Theon home. Well either that or kill the poor Reek.

As for the book, I suspect Bastard Bowl will occur and Jon will defeat Ramsay. Whether it is also through the help of the Manderly's hidden treachery within Winterfell and the aid of the Vale? I imagine both will play a role, and I do think Jon and Sansa will reunite in the books, the show just sped it up considerably.

 

[DACrowe]

You have a very narrow way of looking at things. There is no emotional investment in Littlefinger/what he has done? What?! He is a Grima analogue?! Dude. You are way off. If anything, Littlefinger is this story's equivalent to Saruman.

There is even an argument that while he is not the protagonist or antagonist per se, he is the deuteragonist, in the sense that he is really the most important person in the story aside from the protagonist and the antagonist. He is the one who has made literally everything in the story happen (albeit, indirectly in many cases).

In fact, I personally, would go so far as to call him the antagonist. Yes, there is the Night King...but in the end he is essentially a force of nature rather than a true character. The entirety of the White Walkers fall into that category. They are an oncoming disaster or cataclysm that the heroes must unite to stop, not a character driven antagonist. That would be Baleish.

So yeah, I would certainly argue that Baelish is maybe the true antagonist of this story and if not that, he is certainly, at best the deuteragonist/at worst, the secondary antagonist.

So let's recap the overall effect of the Knights of the Vale saving the Northern forces when they did. Jon Snow and his army are now decimated. Both he and Sansa are in Littlefinger's debt, the debt of the man who betrayed their father and caused his death. And while Winterfell has been reclaimed, it is very possible that the Knights of the Vale are the ones who are truly holding it (after all, they have the manpower). So one of the story's main antagonists now has the guy who is probably the main hero of the story/the protagonist in his debt and bent over a barrel.

There is quite a bit of weight in that.

You are not wrong. Littlefinger started the war and created all this chaos. I also do not think anyone will ever realize it because all the people who could prove it (mainly Lysa Arryn and possibly her husband) are long dead at this point.

I do not think the show has any true antagonist, but the point could be made that he is the greatest menace on the show after Joffrey and Ramsay, and maybe purely Tommen's idiocy. Those others are either cruel, stupid, or both in Joffrey's case. Littlefinger creates the vacuum for them to flourish and sits back while waiting for opportunities to increase his power and titles.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

The Grima I saw in TTT was a mewling waste of a human being. I would have zero respect for him, whereas I can respect Littlefinger's ability to adapt to the chaos he has sown across Westeros. At the end of the day, Littlefinger's game is essentially sticking it to the authority. That's a basic message that I can get behind. What I can't condone is how Littlefinger went about doing it.

So with Baelish there's a kind of respect/hate thing going on that makes him a richer and more well-rounded individual than Grima. Whom you can look at and peg as evil.

Littlefinger is the pimp who ran seedy brothels, a guy who put a knife to Ned's throat, gave Ros to Joffrey for target practice, pushed Sansa off on the Boltons, lies, cons, manipulates, connives, instigates, betrays, murders, etc. ( like a "worm") -your run-of-the-mill sleazebag, except with high ambitions. That's really all that sets him apart from Grima Wormtongue. You admire and respect that kind of person and those methods?

And he's not a rebel sticking it to the Man, he wants to sit on the Iron Throne -that's been made abundantly clear. I admire what GRRM/D&D is trying to do with that kind of character in the story, but he isn't worth rooting for any more than Dr. Lecter in the Thomas Harris books. My tastes are fairly conventional with the consensus in that respect, maybe yours are not.

 

[Reek]

I don't see where people are getting the idea of the bastard bowl happening in the books when Stannis and Roose are alive and about to start fighting, while Jon is dead. And you can count on Stannis V Roose not being anything like the show.

As for Theon going home, that certainly isn't happening in the books. He's a prisoner right now about to die.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You don't think Jon v. Ramsay is going to happen in the books Reek, really?

 

[Charlatan]

But if we accept that the Lord of Light is real, he is the one true god. Beyond that, didn't Arya turn her back on the Many-Faced God?

no she passed his test. The temptation for power. But to get it she was told she had to give up being Arya Stark. To "kill herself" in so many words.
If she had accepted his deal she would have died. She would be a faceless man. Instead she chose to be herself and face death head on and proved the will,determination and courage required to pass. She paid her debt and was allowed to leave. Hopefully with the skill to complete her tasks.

 

[Roose Bolton]

You don't think Jon v. Ramsay is going to happen in the books Reek, really?

I can understand that notion. If it does happen at all, I suspect it'll be Ramsay and a spit of men at the Dreadfort or the like and not the massive war between armies the show made it out to be.

 

[Reek]

You don't think Jon v. Ramsay is going to happen in the books Reek, really?

In the sense that he replaces Stannis in the battle of ice? No. not at all.

 

[Charlatan]

 

[Raiden]

well even so, it was the lord commander of the nights watch and a bastard... holding his actions against winterfell and the true starks is just dumb IMO..

Especially since, as far as anyone knows (bran is presumed dead id say) Rickon is the King in the North ( a title the Umbers brought back themselves)...

No one seemed to give a **** the rightful lord of winterfell/king in the north was held hostage.

And before people say 'well the boltons took winterfell' blah blah... hush. Guest rite is sacred... and the red wedding is universally hated by the north besides the boltons... I dont know about the karstarks in the book, but yea thats the only other house that would seemingly be OK with what happened and how the north was taken...

When that old lady from Winterfell told Sansa that North Remembers, I thought more houses who are pretending to be loyal to the Boltons will side with Starks, but this episode proves that North tends to forget instead. I was really hoping Umbers will turn to Ramsey at the battle and say "Screw you" then join Jon's army. It made Smalljon's refusal to bend the knee to Ramsey rather weird.

Anyway, this is still an incredible episode and I was getting the feel when the Starks banner finally drap over Winterfell. It's a long time coming.

 

[Raiden]

edit: great video, but contains profanity

 

[Iceman]

the LOL says he is, or at least his followers believe it to be true. That may not be the case.

And Jaqen smiled knowingly when Arya said she was going home. Perhaps that's what the MFG wanted all along.

Yes, I think so (at the least this is what Jaqen wanted all along).