Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[DACrowe]

But that still doesn't erase the botched up Dorne plot and the underwhelming Iron Islands plot. For me at least. I think they would have been better off completely ignoring those storylines instead of the half baked mess they created.

Iron Islands serve a purpose because Theon is from there, and technically their rebellion was what led to all this unrest in the North, and was one more nail in Robb's political coffin (which in Westeros is as good as your real coffin too. ). Finding out what is happening there and how the North reacts is kind of linked to the main story.

But I agree, Dorne is a mess, and I dread that we may be back there in the next episode.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think it was pretty clear, at least in season 4 , they had no plans to revisit the Iron Islands. Daario's 93 ships would have served the same function as the Iron Fleet. They never planned to visit Dorne either, until the world fell in love with Oberyn and they decided to try and cash in on the hype.

 

[Brother Jack]

*read first page*

I feel a little responsible somehow. Forgive me. Even Wun Wun couldn't withstand budget restraints.

 

[ComicChick]

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Boromir was taken far too soon. The comparison is on point, though that is what it reminds me of. I would have preferred Umber turned his cloak, killed Karstark and went in on the Bolton forces.

That would have been fine with me IF they hadn't previously delivered Rickon, Osha and Shaggydog's head to Ramsay and if they bore no ancestral hatred for the wildlings, otherwise that switch makes zero sense. That betrayal doesn't tip the scales on the numbers either. As it stood, I rather liked the primal confrontation between Tormund and Smalljon!

I think if I had my choice to add some more Northern support, I would rather the Manderlys had shown up. WTF were they!?

 

[godisawesome]

When people from the UK say that they "had to buy someone a pint," it always sounds like some ceremonial apology to my ears instead of just grabbing a beer.

Like when Kit put the money down, someone in the pub started the traditional "Sorry, Mate," drinking song or something...

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Or maybe they just sing "Anarchy in the UK"

 

[mr. peasant]

Whether you personally like Baelish or not, and even if you are weirdly rooting for him, Littlefinger is not a protagonist, he's a more charming and ambitious version of Grima Wormtongue.

The Rohirrim were clearly protagonists and the readers or audience is pulling for them and hoping they will show up in time and kick some ass!

By contrast nobody cares about the Knights of the Vale because we don't know them. They are an impersonal force and even Littlefinger doesn't care about them, they are just a means to an end in a powerplay, more pawns (or knights ) which can be sacrificed if need be on the way to the Iron Throne.

Nobody cared about the Knights of the Vale just as nobody cared about the Rohirrim riders other than Eomer, who just happened to be leading the charge. At the end of the day, the pawns don't matter, just the hand that moves them.And in this case, while Littlefinger may not have been physically leading the charge, he was certainly the one in charge of them.

Moreover, just because a character isn't a protagonist or "good guy" doesn't mean you don't/aren't allowed to get invested when they show up. I can't speak for you. But for me, one of my immediate reactions upon seeing the Knights of the Vale was "Oh great, what is Littlefinger's aid going to cost Jon and Sansa?".

Maybe, but horses cost more than arrows, and arrows aren't cheap either. At least those you can hopefully scavenge for from among those that didn't get destroyed by landing on armor or snapped by a falling dead man. Horses are a long term investment.

True. On the other hand, their boss - the one who feeds people to his dogs and/or flays them alive when they disappoint him - told them to shoot. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't argue with him in the middle of a battlefield.

 

[TJByrum]

Ramsay forgot to turn auto-fire off on his archers. I do that all the time on Total War and end up killing my own people.

 

[BestGirl]

I think it was pretty clear, at least in season 4 , they had no plans to revisit the Iron Islands. Daario's 93 ships would have served the same function as the Iron Fleet. They never planned to visit Dorne either, until the world fell in love with Oberyn and they decided to try and cash in on the hype.

That would've involved ignoring Myrcella, though, and the death of Cersei's children is what pushes her over the brink of insanity.

 

[TJByrum]

Say what you will about the Dorne plot, I really enjoyed the Bronn and Jaime moments.

Actually, I enjoy any Bronn moment. Except against Vardis.

 

[BestGirl]

I didn't enjoy the Dorne plot the first time I watched it, but upon rewatch thought it wasn't so bad. Arya surviving her stabbing, now, I'll probably never accept that.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Thoroughly enjoyed the episode, unsurprisingly. Looking forward to how the endgame will finally shape up for the TV show. While I had little problems with niggling aspects such as Jon's impregnable plot armor, that moment when he goes ape**** on Ramsay at the end was frickin' amazing for me.

One thing I can't help but be irked about is Dany just magically being able to control her dragons now. I wished they had touched upon this a bit more, maybe even hint at a link similar to the one the Stark children have with their direwolves between her and her dragons.

 

[godisawesome]

Ramsay has that whole speech about Jon being "the best swordsman in the North." It got me thinking; does the North view martial prowess differently from the South? Like, let's say you had a Stark soldier and a Lannister soldier hanging out and not killing each other (ice zombies as a reason for that, maybe) and get into a debate about Jaime pre-gold hand and Jon post-resurrection. Does anyone else think that the more Southern born man may argue from a standpoint of "Jaime Lannister beats more men one on one at tournaments, and those men have their reputations as warrior, ergo, Jaime is better," then the Northman goes "Maybe, but how many men did Kingslayer kill when he was captured by King Robb? Lord Snow cut through Wildlings, deserters, and Boltons like a scythe through summer wheat."?

Just an query; would Northerners look more favorably on a warrior with a greater kill count while maybe not having as many "clean" victories over one on one adversaries, while the more tournament happy Southerners would explicitly focus on duels and the transitive property of butt kicking?

 

[Pink Ranger]

Ramsay has that whole speech about Jon being "the best swordsman in the North." It got me thinking; does the North view martial prowess differently from the South? Like, let's say you had a Stark soldier and a Lannister soldier hanging out and not killing each other (ice zombies as a reason for that, maybe) and get into a debate about Jaime pre-gold hand and Jon post-resurrection. Does anyone else think that the more Southern born man may argue from a standpoint of "Jaime Lannister beats more men one on one at tournaments, and those men have their reputations as warrior, ergo, Jaime is better," then the Northman goes "Maybe, but how many men did Kingslayer kill when he was captured by King Robb? Lord Snow cut through Wildlings, deserters, and Boltons like a scythe through summer wheat."?

Just an query; would Northerners look more favorably on a warrior with a greater kill count while maybe not having as many "clean" victories over one on one adversaries, while the more tournament happy Southerners would explicitly focus on duels and the transitive property of butt kicking?

National League vs. American League: we'll never know the true answer.

 

[Reek]

I can't seem to find this video... if its the 'anatomy of a scene' video i must have completely missed it.

 

[DACrowe]

I think it was pretty clear, at least in season 4 , they had no plans to revisit the Iron Islands. Daario's 93 ships would have served the same function as the Iron Fleet. They never planned to visit Dorne either, until the world fell in love with Oberyn and they decided to try and cash in on the hype.

I do not know about that. They always knew they were going to continue on with Theon beyond Winterfell. If they didn't want the Iron Fleet or Yara, they wouldn't have had to have Theon go home. He could have easily just stayed with Sansa to the Wall (which I was surprised that he didn't) and ridden with the Starks.

With that said... I actually really prefer that now. He never should have betrayed the Starks to begin with, so him leaving again to go back to the family that didn't want him was odd.

Anyway yes, Dorne was a last minute addition, and we all noticed it too.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I do not know about that. They always knew they were going to continue on with Theon beyond Winterfell. If they didn't want the Iron Fleet or Yara, they wouldn't have had to have Theon go home. He could have easily just stayed with Sansa to the Wall (which I was surprised that he didn't) and ridden with the Starks.

With that said... I actually really prefer that now. He never should have betrayed the Starks to begin with, so him leaving again to go back to the family that didn't want him was odd.

Anyway yes, Dorne was a last minute addition, and we all noticed it too.

I don't really think so. I mean, perhaps Theon was meant to go home but that could have easily been at the very end of the show as an epilogue or something. His story was always with the Starks, Boltons, and Winterfell. Right now the only purpose he and Yara are filling is Victarion Greyjoy's role, which was itself a plot point that was made irrelevant in Season 4.

It seems like they actively altered their plans in Season 5 when they decided to give the majority of his arc to Sansa and they needed something for him to do, hence the incredibly late and lazy reintroduction of the Iron Islands and Euron Greyjoy at this point of the story.

 

[Charlatan]

Thoroughly enjoyed the episode, unsurprisingly. Looking forward to how the endgame will finally shape up for the TV show. While I had little problems with niggling aspects such as Jon's impregnable plot armor, that moment when he goes ape**** on Ramsay at the end was frickin' amazing for me.

One thing I can't help but be irked about is Dany just magically being able to control her dragons now. I wished they had touched upon this a bit more, maybe even hint at a link similar to the one the Stark children have with their direwolves between her and her dragons.

I'm not sure Dany is controlling anything. Drogon has shown autonomous sentient thinking processes. Like when he came to her rescue and took her exactly where she needed to go to do what she needed to pursue the agenda.
He could be influencing her for that matter. Yeah they probably have some telepathic link of some sort. But I don't think she could force him to do anything he didn't want to.

 

[Charlatan]

The whole idea of plot armor doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I've come to think the game is being played by 2 gods and these characters are their pieces on the game board. So divine intervention into a world where there is magical wards,time travel,resurrection etc. is totally within the realm of possibilities and actually makes sense of things when you think about. There are rules the players must abide by. Certain boons are allowed for their board pieces if certain tests are passed. Each comes with a cost though. Balance/Yin Yang is a recurring theme. So when things happen and it leaves you wondering how these heroes survive remember they have a higher power looking out for them. Well until they decide to sacrifice them. Not everyone can be a king and totally protected until the end.

 

[DACrowe]

I don't really think so. I mean, perhaps Theon was meant to go home but that could have easily been at the very end of the show as an epilogue or something. His story was always with the Starks, Boltons, and Winterfell. Right now the only purpose he and Yara are filling is Victarion Greyjoy's role, which was itself a plot point that was made irrelevant in Season 4.

It seems like they actively altered their plans in Season 5 when they decided to give the majority of his arc to Sansa and they needed something for him to do, hence the incredibly late and lazy reintroduction of the Iron Islands and Euron Greyjoy at this point of the story.

I think they always intended Sansa to go to Winterfell. I theorize that when Bastard Bowl happens in the book Sansa will still show up with an army at the last minute from the Vale to save Jon. The difference is that it will be the first time she and Jon meet, and she was not part of Jon's build up against Ramsay.

Whether that works better or not, we shall have to wait and see, but the show as early as the end of season 4 with "Darth Sansa" knew they were sending her back to Winterfell (like the book, because GRRM has that much more poignant version of her building a snow castle of Winterfell in ASOS).

So by giving her more agency early in the war against the Boltons, and more of a stake in wanting Ramsay dead, I do not think the show ever gave her material meant for Theon. If Theon had shown up at the Wall with Jeyne Poole, Jon would have killed him on sight. So either the plot was for Theon to just ride with Jon and Sansa (which I would not have been against) or sending him home. I suspect the plan was always the latter.

 

[DACrowe]

The whole idea of plot armor doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I've come to think the game is being played by 2 gods and these characters are their pieces on the game board. So divine intervention into a world where there is magical wards,time travel,resurrection etc. is totally within the realm of possibilities and actually makes sense of things when you think about. There are rules the players must abide by. Certain boons are allowed for their board pieces if certain tests are passed. Each comes with a cost though. Balance/Yin Yang is a recurring theme. So when things happen and it leaves you wondering how these heroes survive remember they have a higher power looking out for them. Well until they decide to sacrifice them. Not everyone can be a king and totally protected until the end.

I mean people have survived medieval battles throughout history.

I agree there is plot armor for Jon, but I really don't think it's as egregious as some make out. With a lot of luck and a little bit of superior swordsmanship, he wasn't hit by the arrows and didn't meet someone who could slice him down. Unlikely? Sure, but you could say that for anyone who survives a battle with volleys of arrows falling on their heads.

Now Arya surviving being stabbed three times in the stomach, complete with a knife twist? That is pure plot armor, and I expect better from this show.

 

[Charlatan]

I mean people have survived medieval battles throughout history.

I agree there is plot armor for Jon, but I really don't think it's as egregious as some make out. With a lot of luck and a little bit of superior swordsmanship, he wasn't hit by the arrows and didn't meet someone who could slice him down. Unlikely? Sure, but you could say that for anyone who survives a battle with volleys of arrows falling on their heads.

Now Arya surviving being stabbed three times in the stomach, complete with a knife twist? That is pure plot armor, and I expect better from this show.

Arya is also being used in the game. The Many Faced God is in her corner.

 

[Roose Bolton]

So by giving her more agency early in the war against the Boltons, and more of a stake in wanting Ramsay dead, I do not think the show ever gave her material meant for Theon. If Theon had shown up at the Wall with Jeyne Poole, Jon would have killed him on sight. So either the plot was for Theon to just ride with Jon and Sansa (which I would not have been against) or sending him home. I suspect the plan was always the latter.

Well I won't get into the first part, because frankly I don't especially think Bastard Bowl is going to play out remotely the same way it has on the show (if indeed, it happens at all). But you misunderstand what I mean by them giving Sansa Theon's material. I don't believe that Theon will go to the Wall and reunite with Jon and make awkward conversation about how badly he treated him in their time together at Winterfell or start telling Jon not to trust Davos or anything like that.

I mean in the very basic sense that Sansa usurped Theon's role as being the primary victim and focus point of Ramsay's abuse, and the one to ultimately have a hand in his downfall. By placing Sansa in the Winterfell storyline, the plot ultimately became about her with Theon serving as a supporting figure for her arc. This is obviously not the case in the books, and I don't think we'll see the Greyjoy siblings heading home any time before the Boltons are dealt with. There's significant set up in the Reek chapters to indicate that Ramsay's tv fate may come about in a way that ties into Theon more than anything else.

And again, like I said, Dany had an actual fleet to take her home back in Season 4. A very specific number of ships, which were only disposed of this season to specially make room for that new plotline (rather clumsily, might I add).

 

[Matt]

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