Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[DarthSkywalker]

So no one can ever be saved by someone else in a story?

If the Knights show up at the beginning, then the protagonists just completely rout Ramsay with no threat of losing nor a sense of jeopardy. There has to be some suspense and peril to make the story entertaining. If they show up too late, and all the protagonists die except Sansa, then you've rendered the Jon Snow resurrection completely pointless and negated any significance to the R+L=J reveal.

Look, I don't like the Vale saving the day either, but that's because we have absolutely no emotional connection to them -- unlike Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn and the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields. I also don't care for the fact that the Stark loyalists were improperly represented, and I thought that surely a couple of houses ( like the Manderlys and perhaps the eastern Flints) would show up late alongside the Vale force. I'm really puzzled that we didn't see the Manderlys since there was a casting call for a fat Northern Lord which just had to be Wyman....

I have no problem with it happening, but it that doesn't change how it happened.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Just checking on this, but am I right in surmising that Ramsay's plan, while effective, did in fact include slaughtering his own cavalry far more than either the number the Starks killed or indeed far more than the actual number of Stark cavalry he did wind up killing.

I mean, it takes Tormund, Wun Wun, and the rest of the infantry a while to actually arrive once they begin their charge, and there's already massive mounds of dead by that time, and the initial cavalry clash featured far more Boltons when Ramsay started team killing with his archers. Doesn't that imply that most of the Bolton arrows that killed someone must have landed in Bolton men?

Because it kind of looks like while Ramsay had a good tactical plan for wiping out the opposing army, he did so in a way that lead to his own men killing roughly half their own even when they had a 2-1 advantage and better armor and discipline than the vast majority of Jon's force. Jon's still an idiot for abdandining his plan, Sansa still had no adequately explained reason in episode to not mention the Vale letter to Jon, but Ramsay seems to pretty clearly qualify as a true butcher instead of a military commander.

They thought they'd take a page from cruel, old Richard the Longshank's playbook (in Braveheart) when he slaughtered a bunch of his own infantry engaged with the Scots with his archers. Infantry - the more expendable component of a medieval army, not the cavalry!

While I do appreciate all the work that went into finally depicting a good battle for us, and some of the results were indeed awesome to see, I do not like how it was written and designed at all. Ramsay's forces would never be able to come around from behind without encountering some reserves or being nailed by archers, and I don't think the mound would be such a high hill either -that was outrageous. And as I posted a couple of pages ago, Wun Wun with an uprooted tree could have completely busted that shieldwall open.

 

[TheBat812]

Because that's probably their brothers and cousins out there, if not their nobles. Things work differently in a Mediaeval world. Or should, anyway. Certainly did a few seasons ago. The fact that they had overwhelming numbers makes it even less necessary.

This is why I am so happy that Ramsay is dead. He became the writer's favorite, and the show's own internal logic went out the window whenever he was on screen. Kill your father, the Warden of the North? No problem. Kinslaying isn't a big deal in this world as we've established with Tyrion. Even though your father had a tenuous hold on his title. Kill your noble step-mom, and half-brother? No problem. There won't be any consequences for that. The Freys take betrayal well.

You're a twenty-something bastard legitimized by a dead king no one in the North acknowledged in the first place, who murders the rightful heir to Winterfell in cold blood? No problem. It's not like the North remembers.

You want your men to shoot their own people? Sure, boss. Even though we have total numerical superiority. Wait, shouldn't we be in the castle famous for being easy to defend? No. Okay. Well, you're the boss.

I could buy one of those. But it got kind of ridiculous after a while.

As with the Jamie/Blackfish sequence, honor is supposed to compel the men abide by their Lord even if they disagree with it. This was just part of the ongoing characterization of Bolton's shortsided callous decision making that would ultimately bite him in the ash. I didn't have an issue with it in context, although I understand your point in a theoretical sense.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I feel like it's almost to obvious to say, this was the best episode of the season so far.

I think the first couple episodes were good (although they felt a little strange) and then it slowed down almost excruciatingly. As if it was all build up for this specific episode. And the battle of the bastards didn't necessarily disappoint. I just feel like 1 great episode a season isn't gonna be a sustainable practice for the future of this show.

Anyway, amazing episode. I found the [BLACKOUT]death of Rickon and Wun Wun[/BLACKOUT] to be almost equally upsetting. Neither was particularly catastrophic. But I suppose nothing comes at no cost. Particularly[BLACKOUT] the death of a villain like Ramsey.[/BLACKOUT]

Anyway, I'm excited about the finale, but I just hope they don't drop off the level of excitement they've ramped up to in this episode.

 

[ComicChick]

They thought they'd take a page from cruel, old Richard the Longshank's playbook (in Braveheart) when he slaughtered a bunch of his own infantry engaged with the Scots with his archers. Infantry - the more expendable component of a medieval army, not the cavalry!

While I do appreciate all the work that went into finally depicting a good battle for us, and some of the results were indeed awesome to see, I do not like how it was written and designed at all. Ramsay's forces would never be able to come around from behind without encountering some reserves or being nailed by archers, and I don't think the mound would be such a high hill either -that was outrageous. And as I posted a couple of pages ago, Wun Wun with an uprooted tree could have completely busted that shieldwall open.

i was hoping when they were trapped in the circle, that he'd pick a guy up and start swinging at the shield trying to break the wall

 

[Kane52630]

*read first page*

I hope Wun Wun survives.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

 

[mr. peasant]

Look, I don't like the Vale saving the day either, but that's because we have absolutely no emotional connection to them -- unlike Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn and the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields.

I dunno... I'd argue we have a sizable emotional connection with Littlefinger; who is the real faction/power behind the Vale army and responsible for the rescue.

This bothered me, as in real life this would never happen. The Bolton men would be firing on their own. And since cavalrymen are usually of higher birth and rank, the archers might actually be shooting at their own lords.

Not strictly true as the bulk of cavalry in medieval times were non-noble men-at-arms. This would've been especially true in Ramsay's army; which was primarily comprised of Bolton, Karstark and Umber troops, with neither head of the latter two houses participating in the charge.

 

[DACrowe]

So no one can ever be saved by someone else in a story?

If the Knights show up at the beginning, then the protagonists just completely rout Ramsay with no threat of losing nor a sense of jeopardy. There has to be some suspense and peril to make the story entertaining. If they show up too late, and all the protagonists die except Sansa, then you've rendered the Jon Snow resurrection completely pointless and negated any significance to the R+L=J reveal.

Look, I don't like the Vale saving the day either, but that's because we have absolutely no emotional connection to them -- unlike Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn and the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields. I also don't care for the fact that the Stark loyalists were improperly represented, and I thought that surely a couple of houses ( like the Manderlys and perhaps the eastern Flints) would show up late alongside the Vale force. I'm really puzzled that we didn't see the Manderlys since there was a casting call for a fat Northern Lord which just had to be Wyman....

Funny thing is that I bet it does happen in the books now, it's just Sansa convinces Littlefinger (or tricks Robert/Robin Arryn) to show up, and George will play it just as much as a "surprise" as he did the unexpected appearance of Tywin and Loras at Blackwater Bay or, with much less novelty, when Stannis and Davos' army showed up at the Battle for the Wall.

So by including Sansa in Jon's narrative much earlier, it is more telegraphed that she will save Jon with Littlefinger's army... it also could create some negative perspectives on Sansa since right now it looks like she knew the Vale was coming and did not warn Jon until after he lost most of his men (however, we won't know for sure if that's how it played out until Sunday).

But I think it is a worthy tradeoff to give Sansa more agency and be there with Jon as he fights to regain the North. I think also giving her a personal reason to kill Ramsay besides him being the son of Roose has turned out to be a very dark but powerful layer added to her character.

So, it is an open question if it is better that they made it a predictable plot development instead of a twist. Well, only if they can clear Sansa up of at least seeming too scheming this week (as in she didn't intentionally let Jon go into war because she didn't know if LF was coming).

 

[DACrowe]

I feel like it's almost to obvious to say, this was the best episode of the season so far.

I think the first couple episodes were good (although they felt a little strange) and then it slowed down almost excruciatingly. As if it was all build up for this specific episode. And the battle of the bastards didn't necessarily disappoint. I just feel like 1 great episode a season isn't gonna be a sustainable practice for the future of this show.

Anyway, amazing episode. I found the [BLACKOUT]death of Rickon and Wun Wun[/BLACKOUT] to be almost equally upsetting. Neither was particularly catastrophic. But I suppose nothing comes at no cost. Particularly[BLACKOUT] the death of a villain like Ramsey.[/BLACKOUT]

Anyway, I'm excited about the finale, but I just hope they don't drop off the level of excitement they've ramped up to in this episode.

I disagree that it is only one great episode. In fact I liked The Door and Book of the Stranger more. The Broken Man was also really good.

I agree this season feels a little bit off in terms of pacing, because now that they no longer have GRRM's detailed books to outline or make changes to (sometimes for the better, to be fair), and thus things are happening much more quickly and sometimes a little more sloppily too. There isn't the attention to detail and strategy that Martin's text provided for the first five seasons.

With that said, I like this better than Season 5. I think for whatever qualms I just said, it has been moving at a much better clip and is doing what Martin resisted to the detriment of his fourth and fifth novels: It's begun focusing on the endgame and narrowing the field instead of widening it. It has led to some great moments like the Stark reunion, Dany burning the khals, the reveal about Hodor, and yeah, at least the death of Ramsay.

For every rushed or awkward moment like the death of Roose Bolton, the show has made up for it with several elements finally reaching turning points.

 

[Victarion]

Look, I don't like the Vale saving the day either, but that's because we have absolutely no emotional connection to them -- unlike Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn and the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields.

I found Littlefinger more interesting than Theoden and co. Bronze Yohn Royce came off as more likeable to me than Theoden's group as well, though we only met him briefly in season four and some in season five.

 

[trd84]

A lot of people are saying Jon is a bad leader and not a good commander in battle. I don't think you can really judge him based on this battle. This wasn't normal circumstances. Rob would've had the same reaction.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I disagree that it is only one great episode. In fact I liked The Door and Book of the Stranger more. The Broken Man was also really good.

I agree this season feels a little bit off in terms of pacing, because now that they no longer have GRRM's detailed books to outline or make changes to (sometimes for the better, to be fair), and thus things are happening much more quickly and sometimes a little more sloppily too. There isn't the attention to detail and strategy that Martin's text provided for the first five seasons.

With that said, I like this better than Season 5. I think for whatever qualms I just said, it has been moving at a much better clip and is doing what Martin resisted to the detriment of his fourth and fifth novels: It's begun focusing on the endgame and narrowing the field instead of widening it. It has led to some great moments like the Stark reunion, Dany burning the khals, the reveal about Hodor, and yeah, at least the death of Ramsay.

For every rushed or awkward moment like the death of Roose Bolton, the show has made up for it with several elements finally reaching turning points.

But that still doesn't erase the botched up Dorne plot and the underwhelming Iron Islands plot. For me at least. I think they would have been better off completely ignoring those storylines instead of the half baked mess they created.

 

[Reek]

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I dunno... I'd argue we have a sizable emotional connection with Littlefinger; who is the real faction/power behind the Vale army and responsible for the rescue.

I found Littlefinger more interesting than Theoden and co. Bronze Yohn Royce came off as more likeable to me than Theoden's group as well, though we only met him briefly in season four and some in season five.

Whether you personally like Baelish or not, and even if you are weirdly rooting for him, Littlefinger is not a protagonist, he's a more charming and ambitious version of Grima Wormtongue.

The Rohirrim were clearly protagonists and the readers or audience is pulling for them and hoping they will show up in time and kick some ash!

By contrast nobody cares about the Knights of the Vale because we don't know them. They are an impersonal force and even Littlefinger doesn't care about them, they are just a means to an end in a powerplay, more pawns (or knights ) which can be sacrificed if need be on the way to the Iron Throne.

 

[Victarion]

Fair enough, though I did care about Baelish more as an antagonist and Bronze Yohn than the Rohan crew. I like Yohn's sense of duty and his no-nonsense attitude, but I'm also at odds with those principals keeping him from sticking a knife in Baelish and dumping him in that pool in the Winterfell godswood. With Baelish, I have someone that I both admire and despise - I admire him for rising as far as he as and being as adaptable as he's been. I despise him for his role in Ned's death. And for me, this is the beauty of the series - characters that I don't wholly like or wholly despise.

That said, Tolkien was never my speed. Give me a Gandalf that's effectively a cure that is as bad as, or worse than, the disease.

 

[Reek]

I'm going to laugh when you all realize Petyr Baelish is the Prince Who Was Promised.

 

[godisawesome]

I dunno... I'd argue we have a sizable emotional connection with Littlefinger; who is the real faction/power behind the Vale army and responsible for the rescue.




Not strictly true as the bulk of cavalry in medieval times were non-noble men-at-arms. This would've been especially true in Ramsay's army; which was primarily comprised of Bolton, Karstark and Umber troops, with neither head of the latter two houses participating in the charge.

Maybe, but horses cost more than arrows, and arrows aren't cheap either. At least those you can hopefully scavenge for from among those that didn't get destroyed by landing on armor or snapped by a falling dead man. Horses are a long term investment.

A lot of people are saying Jon is a bad leader and not a good commander in battle. I don't think you can really judge him based on this battle. This wasn't normal circumstances. Rob would've had the same reaction.

I actually kind of thought that Jon fought like a Wildlings during the battle. Maybe Tormund or some other Wildlings will forgive him for that.

And I don't think Rob would have necessarily sacrificed his plan the same way. Robb seems to have been a pure tactican, the kind of guy you expect to win a battle by avoiding the pitfalls of his rivals and peers. Jon may turn out to be a better strategist, and he seems fairly competent at using what intelligence and diplomacy he has correctly, what with his playing an improvised counterintelligence operation while undercover with Ygritte, moving to kill deserters who might compromise that plan, and desiring to flood the tunnel. But Robb proved himself capable of coldly sacrificing men in a feint, and was overall more experienced in pitched battles.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Fair enough, though I did care about Baelish more as an antagonist and Bronze Yohn than the Rohan crew. I like Yohn's sense of duty and his no-nonsense attitude, but I'm also at odds with those principals keeping him from sticking a knife in Baelish and dumping him in that pool in the Winterfell godswood. With Baelish, I have someone that I both admire and despise - I admire him for rising as far as he as and being as adaptable as he's been. I despise him for his role in Ned's death. And for me, this is the beauty of the series - characters that I don't wholly like or wholly despise.

That said, Tolkien was never my speed. Give me a Gandalf that's effectively a cure that is as bad as, or worse than, the disease.

I love Tolkien, but I only use these comparisons because the Vale save has been likened to the Rohirrim save in the siege of Minas Tirith by thousands of people so I just worked that distinction to explain why I don't like this Vale save.

It's okay that people like the grey or dark grey or even black characters. Hell I know people who like the Nazgul! Granted they are Goths... But Tolkien had grey too, Boromir being the best example and not surprisingly GRRM's personal favorite character in that story.



Save</span>

 

[Marvolo]

Maybe, but horses cost more than arrows, and arrows aren't cheap either. At least those you can hopefully scavenge for from among those that didn't get destroyed by landing on armor or snapped by a falling dead man. Horses are a long term investment.


I actually kind of thought that Jon fought like a Wildlings during the battle. Maybe Tormund or some other Wildlings will forgive him for that.

And I don't think Rob would have necessarily sacrificed his plan the same way. Robb seems to have been a pure tactican, the kind of guy you expect to win a battle by avoiding the pitfalls of his rivals and peers. Jon may turn out to be a better strategist, and he seems fairly competent at using what intelligence and diplomacy he has correctly, what with his playing an improvised counterintelligence operation while undercover with Ygritte, moving to kill deserters who might compromise that plan, and desiring to flood the tunnel. But Robb proved himself capable of coldly sacrificing men in a feint, and was overall more experienced in pitched battles.

Robb sacrificed his war, his men, his mother, and his life for an Essos nurse. And he walked into the twins expecting guest rights from a man he had betrayed thereby putting everyone including his wife and unborn child at risk. In battle he did well, but his heart and emotions had quite a bit of influence on his decisions and he made some monumental mistakes. If Cat hadnt been there to talk some sense into him after Robb heard about Ned's death he would have done something extremely stupid out of anger. Had he been at Winterfell and seen his baby brother shot like a dog right in front of him he probably would have reacted the exact same way Jon did.

I think the only difference between Rob and Jon is that Robb wouldnt have let himself even get into that situation with so few men. He would have reached out to the Vale and taken them with him from the get go which would have made Ramsay much more nervous about taking his army outside of the safety of Winterfell. So they would have been involved in a siege rather than a pitched battle in an open field.

 

[Victarion]

Boromir was taken far too soon. The comparison is on point, though that is what it reminds me of. I would have preferred Umber turned his cloak, killed Karstark and went in on the Bolton forces.

 

[Marvolo]

One of the things that irritates me is Jon seemingly forgetting that he had Wun Wun. If I saw Rickon running and Ramsay firing arrows at him I would have rode out to Rickon and had Wun Wun follow so that he could either carry Rickon back to safety or as a means of covering Jon and Rickon's retreat back to their line. I dont know if Wun Wun could have run faster than a horse and reached Rickon first, but I feel that Jon taking Wun Wun with him would have been safer than him charging out their alone.

Wun Wun mightmight hve gotten hit by an arrow or two, but he could have shrugged that off well enough. And I think had Jon asked him to help save his little brother Wun Wun would have done it without hesitation.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Onw of the things that irritates me is Jon seemingly forgetting that he had Wun Wun. If I saw Rickon running and Ramsay firing arrows at him I would have rode out to Rickon and had Wun Wun follow so that he could either carry Rickon back to safety or as a means of covering Jon and Rickon's retreat back to their line. I dont know if Wun Wun could have run faster than a horse and reached Rickon first, but I feel that Jon taking Wun Wun with him would have been safer than him charging out their alone.

According to the show, Jon is faster on foot then Wun Wun is on foot. I don't know why, but that is what they showed. So Jon on horse is much faster then Wun Wun.

 

[Reek]

I mean when your little brother is running for his life and you know if you don't get to him, he is going to die... you don't sit there and plan a strategy. I wouldn't even think, I'd act just as Jon did.

 

[ComicChick]

^same
but i hope i would've told him to zig or zag or run diagonal or something