Civil War Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

[Voltron]

If you want it to fail........sure. Cap already has a number of allies who join him in the field. The last thing the character needs is to be redundant.

But Cap has never been joined in the field with a girlfriend-slash-colleague that fights along side him. And no I don't consider Staron in a relationship because when Cap kissed Sharon he was seizing the moment right before going off to fight the deadly super soldiers where he risks dying. Plus he likes Sharon since TWS. Cap kissing Sharon was like a soldier kissing a woman he just met before he goes off to war.

 

[Rote]

Sharon's story clearly suffered by them deciding to make this "Avengers 3 in everything but name." She doesn't get a lot to do in TWS, but there was a semi-plausible foundation to build a relationship between her and Steve moving forward. But by deciding to shove most of the Avengers into this (including ones like Hawkeye and Ant Man, who really have no reason to be here outside of fanservice) Sharon (and Crossbones for that matter, he's wasted here as well) are unfortunately lost in the shuffle.

According to this video on the moment of late 2014, Sharon had a bigger role with all the other Avengers included. And she was in the airport battle initially too, again, with all the Avengers.
It looks like that last year's old rumor about Russos cutting EVC's role because she's a poor actress, who whispers her way throughout the perfomances, may be true.

Stucky is not going to happen. These fans are deluded. SebStan in a few interviews has expressed that he wants TWS to be paired with BW. The Russos were and online media like Vulture/Vanity Fair are queer baiting. I've already mentioned my suspicion that the Russos from the onset disliked the character of Sharon even BEFORE EVC was cast.

PFFFF, OF COURSE, it's not going to happen. Because, you know, MONEY. But that was not the point of my message at all.
I don't think they are queerbaiting. The Russos have never called them lovers. What they meant is that their story is actually very romantic and follows all the romantic tropes like a usual canon couple. And M&M have said that too. They even called Bucky and Steve "platonic soulmates" somewhere.

Vanity Fair's frustration with Staron's kiss was pretty genuine. Professional critic from Forbes thinks that Sharon was there just to dethrone Stucky shippers. NPR too. There are just too many of them. Ed Brubaker very often twits about his support for Stucky's ship. GQ called Stucky "the best love story of the MCU". And that is only what I can remember now. No one claims, that they are canon. But it doesn't prevent people to ship it, because apparently this ship is much more entertaining than canon couples.

 

[MadVillainy]

The whole Stucky thing is basically the equivalent of me saying that Scarlett Witch and Black Widow should hook up and be lovers.

The fact that people are mad that they arent doing Stucky is silly.


I also don't get that any time 2 characters of the same sex are close, people always say there is Ho Yay/Les Yay (gay overtones). 2 people can be close without any romantic text/subtext

 

[Rote]

The whole Stucky thing is basically the equivalent of me saying that Scarlett Witch and Black Widow should hook up and be lovers.

The fact that people are mad that they arent doing Stucky is silly.


I also don't get that any time 2 characters of the same sex are close, people always say there is Ho Yay/Les Yay (gay overtones). 2 people can be close without any romantic text/subtext

No, it's not. AT ALL. See my previous posts why. SW and BW don't have such story as Stucky in canon.
And also, once again, no one says that "2 people can't be close without any romantic text/subtext". (I don't see as many people or media shipping SteveThor, SteveSam, SteveTony, so on) It's just that there are absolutely NO LGBT couples among the main characters in mainstream. That's the point. People are tired that they are ALWAYS just friends. And Stucky is very romantic in actual canon. Even much more romantic than almost all the MCU's canon couples. (Vision has made a mistake because he was distracted by Wanda. Steve has made a mistake because he was distracted by Bucky's name. It's, you know, things like that.) THAT'S why Russos call it a "love story".

But yeah, some people here are clearly uncomfortable with all this thing, so they like to ignor this simple explanation.

 

[MadVillainy]

First, I've seen plenty of people ship SteveTony
I also see it for a lot of MCU films
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/MarvelCinematicUniverse

2) I did read your explanation and it still doesnt change my feelings on it. Honestly you didn't say much on why it's different. From what I'm gathering youre saying in your 2nd post that because SW and BW aren't close that wanting them to hook up it's not the same thing as Stucky. That still goes to my point of I don't get why two people can't be close without being called lovers.

Even look at the show Supernatural. They are brothers in the show and people are still saying "Why can't they hook up". Or Jessica Jones between the titular character and Rachel Taylor (another close relationship between 2 close friends). Or X-Men between Charles/Erik. Or Red/Andy in Shawshank. When two people of the same sex are close and show that they care about each other the shippers always try to make it into gay subtext.
Steve and Bucky are close childhood friends and are like brothers. Why does that mean they have romantic feelings for each other? It seems like in the movie world, two people can't say I love you without it being romantic, which is just immature and silly.

And before you say anything. No I'm not homophobic. And no I'm not uncomfortable with homosexuality. Don't even try and bring that over here. I just don't get why people get legitimately angry that characters aren't made gay. It's as silly to me as people who got mad that Spider-Man wasn't cast as black.
If people want them to hook up: cool. Nothing wrong with that at all. But I see people getting angry, calling others homophobic, etc. because they don't want/don't care about them hooking up and I just think it's childish. Using an example again, it's the same/very similar of people getting called racist when they don't really want a character's race changed.

 

[Rote]

What I'm saying is that I'm seeing much more Stucky all over the internet. SteveTony is not even close. And I can understand why, although personally I prefer Steve with Wanda. Nobody said that you or me need to change our feelings or opinion, but if you really want to understand other people, that was a pretty simple explanation.

And do you really need a further explanation? Do you really can't understand why the Russos call Stucky a "love story", but not, for example, SteveSam who are also very close friends? Why people ship Stucky so much, but not, again, Stam? Do you need a description of all romantic tropes which occur in SteveBucky relationship? Such as Bucky being "damsel in distress" for Steve in all three films? I have found what screenwriters M&M have to say about it. Yes, it's about Steve and Bucky in comic-books, but it's totally applicable for the MCU too.

Spoiler

"Their bond has all the elements of a classic romance" - that's what I'm talking about. Again, it doesn't mean that their love is romantic in canon, but you can easily understand, why people ship them.

Personally, I've heard something about Destiel, but don't know about any brothers ship, because I don't watch Supernatural. Yes, there are many M/M ships, but I don't see them all over the internet. It's usually just tumbler.
And maybe some crazy Stucky shippers are angry, but I didn't see it. Then again, there are always some crazy fans in EVERY fandom. Nobody forces you to ship Stucky. People just want to ship what they want without people like you constantly teaching them: "You can't ship them, they are not canon!" That's the point when both sides become mad at each other.

Media like Vanity Fair or Forbes aren't angry too. They are just frustrated that the film shoehorned such lackluster Staron thing down their throats for no homo purposes, when there was clearly no time for it. Sometimes it's better not to do certain thing at all, than do it so badly.
And what actually would be so different about Steve's character if he were bisexual? Nothing at all. Person is not defined by the sexuality, that's not who he is. But still in the movies the most prominent feature of gay characters is that they are gay. Our culture don't treat them like all the other "normal" people. MCU has already made much bigger deviations from comic-book canon. It's just that certain people are ready to accept all these deviations but don't want Steve to be bisexual, that's all.

 

[MadVillainy]

Ok

I just hope all these people caping for Stucky who claim it's not just because they think it'll be hot also bought tickets, rented, or bought Blu Rays for movies like Milk, Carol, The Normal Heart, etc.

 

[ScarlettW]

First, I've seen plenty of people ship SteveTony
I also see it for a lot of MCU films
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/MarvelCinematicUniverse

And before you say anything. No I'm not homophobic. And no I'm not uncomfortable with homosexuality. Don't even try and bring that over here. I just don't get why people get legitimately angry that characters aren't made gay. It's as silly to me as people who got mad that Spider-Man wasn't cast as black.
If people want them to hook up: cool. Nothing wrong with that at all. But I see people getting angry, calling others homophobic, etc. because they don't want/don't care about them hooking up and I just think it's childish. Using an example again, it's the same/very similar of people getting called racist when they don't really want a character's race changed.

Sebastian Stan was accused of being homophobic by Stucky fans just because he said that Steve and Bucky are like brothers.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Ok

I just hope all these people caping for Stucky who claim it's not just because they think it'll be hot also bought tickets, rented, or bought Blu Rays for movies like Milk, Carol, The Normal Heart, etc.

So fans who think there's more to a potential pairing than hotness have to support all movies with similarly orientated relationships?

I just hope all these people caping for Steve/Sharon who claim it's not just because they think it'll be hot also bought tickets, rented, or bought Blu Rays for movies like Me Before You, The Fault in Our Stars, Silver Linings Playbook, etc.

 

[MadVillainy]

Ah well you're not understanding what I meant by that. Your point makes no sense.

I'm saying that they're are people out there, the majority from what I've seen, that say that they want Stucky because there aren't enough homosexual relationships in film. Which I agree with.

However, the films that are released with homosexual relationships that are also good movies don't make much money through renting, tickets, or home video.

Why complain about the lack of gay representation and then a lot of the people complaining don't support films with major gay representation

A good step to getting like Stucky happening is supporting movies with good homosexual representation.
To me it's like when people complain about the lack of original properties in Hollywood but then don't go and see "original" movies. They go see the sequels, the remakes, etc.

I want more movies with ethnically diverse casts. So when I think one is going to be good I make sure to see it ASAP. I like action movies with strong women characters so I make sure to see the ones I hear are/to me look good.

Support the change you wanna see. Vote with your wallet. Complaining online is not gonna do much unless your affecting their bottom line.

 

[Rote]

Ok

I just hope all these people caping for Stucky who claim it's not just because they think it'll be hot also bought tickets, rented, or bought Blu Rays for movies like Milk, Carol, The Normal Heart, etc.

Well, why people ship hetero couples? For multiple reasons including that they find them hot too.
Personally I've never understand ships like SteveTony, Charles/Eric, Harry/Draco, because I've never seen roots for them in canon. That's just a different case and with it I agree with you.

Sebastian Stan was accused of being homophobic by Stucky fans just because he said that Steve and Bucky are like brothers.

I saw just one post about it and many others that actually were protecting Sebastian from that person. Everyone knows, that Stan has played gay characters several times. Everybody loves him, all I see is a tons of love and nothing else. But as I said every fandom has crazy fans. I saw a LOT of ugly hate on twitter from Staron fans towards Atwell, just because she expressed her opinion.

 

[Stevie2020]

I like Stucky the same way I like Romanogers. As close platonic relationships. I personally don't need to have them crossover into sexual relationships. There can be great emotional resonance in relationships that are not sexual.

Regarding representation, give it time and it will happen in Marvel movies like everywhere else when the audience is receptive. And in Marvel/Disney's case, it is a matter of an international "family" market, one that really isn't all that receptive to an authentic het relationship (let alone the balanced inclusion of well-developed female characters) so don't expect a lot of progressive thought or action regarding same sex couplings. Continue to enjoy subtle subtext, fanfic, and tumblr to that end.

 

[universeman]

Ok what does all this got to do with Sharon?

 

[Stevie2020]

BTW, did anyone else notice in those animatics that Tony mentioned missing a Lamaze class? Cute.

 

[Rote]

Ok

I just hope all these people caping for Stucky who claim it's not just because they think it'll be hot also bought tickets, rented, or bought Blu Rays for movies like Milk, Carol, The Normal Heart, etc.

I think, the problem is that those people want to see LGBT characters in MAINSTREAM films on major roles. But mainstream never delivers. Does in this case they have to see the movies they normally don't watch and don't like just because some LGBT characters?
I'm against including original LGBT characters just for the sake of their presence. Don’t reduce characters to just their sexuality, and make that out to be the one thing that defines LGBT+ individuals. It must not be the most prominent feature of the character. That's why I think it would be better to show how already known characters struggle to self-identify and figure out their sexuality. Or just don't make a big deal of it at all. It must be a minor feature, not who the character is in the universe.

Ok what does all this got to do with Sharon?

People and media don't like that her character was reduced to a function of "no homo" flag and wasn't developed as her own at all.
Like, dear filmmakers, how is the audience supposed to ship her with Steve if even you don't care about her or this relationship?

 

[Rote]

I like Stucky the same way I like Romanogers. As close platonic relationships. I personally don't need to have them crossover into sexual relationships. There can be great emotional resonance in relationships that are not sexual.

I also love SteveBucky and SteveNat as friends because I actually think that platonic love is the strongest type of love. It's just that I can also understand frustration of these shippers, because at the same time along with these beautiful relationships filmmakers are shoving down our throats such undeveloped, creepy and poorly handled Staron thing. Why do it at all? After that I can totally understand desire to make SteveBucky or SteveNat romantic. Because THEY ARE inherently much more romantic in canon than Staron.

 

[Stevie2020]

Please let's not forget the clumsy poorly written Brutasha or the clunky chemistry-free Thor+Jane. The Marvel/Disney machine puts a lot of quality work into those movies and it shows. What they can't do well and/or aren't that interested in are the romantic elements.

I think Vision/Wanda only work because the are intrinsically tied together from the comics to the common MCU origins. And each has very few connections to other characters so it's easy for them to fixate on each other.

So, to your point, why do it at all? I think that if the opportunity is there to smush a couple of good characters together, they should consider it. But it needs to be as believable in execution as the special FX or the fight scenes. Otherwise, yeah, why bother?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Whether or not there is another solo Cap movie (and quite honestly Disney owes us one), at this point does Cap really need a love interest? How about let Cap be Cap the hero, Cap the rogue-but-surely-to-be-forgiven hero, Cap who's loyal to his friends and true to his word and has a personal life that's mentioned in the story but strictly as off-screen background?

How about a Cap who can be close friends with men and women alike without sexualizing and/or shipping those relationships?

How about Sharon as a real and vital character who has a relevant role to play in the story that isn't limited to being either Steve's love interest OR Peggy's niece?

In reference to the bolded part, why?

How about those things, which don't conflict with Steve dating, but they're all done in a way that are about Steve himself?

 

[Stevie2020]

In reference to the bolded part, why?

How about those things, which don't conflict with Steve dating, but they're all done in a way that are about Steve himself?

Through dialogue it can be conveyed that Steve has a life outside of the action plot. A full life with assurance that he has moved on. Especially since Marvel has arrived at the point with Steve that his primary man-out-of-time emotional arc seems over and it is now all about the action and introducing new heroes.

That's why.

Now if his personal life, romances, continuing adjustments to 21st century life, whatever -- with or without the DLI Sharon -- can be worked into the foreground effectively then that's great. Good entertainment. But I don't see it happening.

Captain America has been very handily used as a host for other superhero screen time and set up. I don't expect that to change.

 

[universeman]

People and media don't like that her character was reduced to a function of "no homo" flag and wasn't developed as her own at all.
Like, dear filmmakers, how is the audience supposed to ship her with Steve if even you don't care about her or this relationship?

I think the writers does but the Russo's don't, also what does Stucky have to do with Sharon? and I feel like Sharon's page has been hijacked.

 

[Mike5575]

Because they fed up with heterosexual pairings. It's got very boring, I suppose. They have seen everything about it and don't have any single LGBT couple at all.
And actually Stucky is not like other M/M ships, because it has actual roots in canon. That's why Russos call their relationship a "love story": it follows all the romantic tropes you usually have with canon ships. If Bucky were a woman, no one would have any doubt that Steve is crazy in love with Becky Barnes.

Haha, it just seems now that all the media ships Stucky, not just fandom on tumbler. It's all over the internet. For example, the recent I've seen is from the Vulture:

The Russos have maintained that the relationship between Cap and Bucky was one of brothers. Of course they love each other, but it's a very platonic brotherly love. Believe it or not, not every relationship has to be a sexual one.

“What’s fascinating about the Cap-Bucky story as well is it’s a love story. These are two guys who grew up together, and so they have that same emotional connection to each other as brothers would, and even more so because Bucky was all Steve [Rogers] had growing up.”

http://screenrant.com/captain-america-civil-war-love-story-bucky/

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Through dialogue it can be conveyed that Steve has a life outside of the action plot. A full life with assurance that he has moved on. Especially since Marvel has arrived at the point with Steve that his primary man-out-of-time emotional arc seems over and it is now all about the action and introducing new heroes.

That's why.

Now if his personal life, romances, continuing adjustments to 21st century life, whatever -- with or without the DLI Sharon -- can be worked into the foreground effectively then that's great. Good entertainment. But I don't see it happening.

Captain America has been very handily used as a host for other superhero screen time and set up. I don't expect that to change.

They probably won't change, I agree. However, your post would imply that that is as it should be.

That you don't think a Captain America movie can have Captain America's personal journey, personal life, and so on, be at the forefront is odd.

 

[Stevie2020]

They probably won't change, I agree. However, your post would imply that that is as it should be.

That you don't think a Captain America movie can have Captain America's personal journey, personal life, and so on, be at the forefront is odd.

I'm not implying that and I don't think that. His story can be whatever Marvel wants his story to be. I'm dealing with the reality of what has been presented to the viewing audience and what appears to be on the slate for future movies.

I am a MCU Cap fan obviously and so that frames my perspective and would have preferred that CACW had been CA: Finding Bucky or whatever. Look what we got. An Avengers/IM 4 movie from Caps perspective featuring His Highness BP and Spidey.

(BTW, don't get me wrong, looking forward to both.)

 

[ScarlettW]

Stucky is not going to happen. These fans are deluded. SebStan in a few interviews has expressed that he wants TWS to be paired with BW. The Russos were and online media like Vulture/Vanity Fair are queer baiting. I've already mentioned my suspicion that the Russos from the onset disliked the character of Sharon even BEFORE EVC was cast.

I don't think they hate her. They are fans of Natasha, wanted the opportunity to work with her. If they didn't like Sharon, she wouldn't be back. Almost no one remembers her.
As shown in the storyboards, she was going to have a better role, but with the entry of spiderman + iron man and black panther, they reduced her to help Steve and his friends. Russos still tried to make her important with the speech and showing potential to help, but everything came out fast, damaging the character.
It's not only with her, Clint made more sense; Clint and Rhodey against Wanda be under house arrest; the dialogue between Cap and Tony was much better than in the movie.

I hope that if she comes back, Russos will make better use of her. It would be nice to see her in missions with the Secret Avengers.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah Clint and Scott Lang has no real reason to be here besides fanservice (and their motivations are only vaguely sketched out). It's the opposite of TWS, where I was questioning why Clint wasn't there, or at least why he never comes up once in conversation.

I'd have much preferred that they not be here if it meant that Sharon (and Crossbones) got more to do (wow was he wasted here as well).