Should this be an origin film?

[Mike Murdock]

At any rate, that's not where Carol got her energy absorbing powers from (at least not directly). As I understand it, those came from the Brood, who were fascinated by her half-Kree genetics and experimented on her, sometime after she had been depowered by Rogue and joined the X-Men.

Ooh, that's good to know. Is that during X-Men or Ms. Marvel's first run?

The Brood complicates things too much, and Marvel doesn't have the rights to them anyways. It is much simpler just to have her get those powers from Mar-vell, like in Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

They don't have the rights to the Brood? That's a shame, to me it seems like there's a strong Carol Danvers connection there - not just with that but the rebooted Brian Reed series started with them. I'm guessing X-Men?

But I think it's better to give her all her powers at once. I'd argue for the Psyche-Magnetron rather than Mar-Vell, though, just because I don't think the Kree should have that ability naturally. Earth's Mightiest Heroes isn't necessarily contradictory on this point, since it's not explained (at least as far as I know).

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

This is why I've said Mar-Vell should be an older Obi-Wan like mentor figure. It gives him a sense of weight and history and legacy (important if Carol is gonna take up his mantle) while not undermining the fact that Carol is the star of the movie. She is the main hero from the start so you don't want to undercut that by making her a love interest who gets kidnapped. That was fine for when Mar-Vell was the lead character in the Captain Marvel books and Carol was a supporting character, but this is different.

Having a romantic relationship and being a damsel in distress are two different things. You can easily have one without the other.

While a mentor/pupil relationship would work, I think a romantic relationship may be more appealing to the female audience that Marvel is likely courting with this film.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Having a romantic relationship and being a damsel in distress are two different things. You can easily have one without the other.

While a mentor/pupil relationship would work, I think a romantic relationship may be more appealing to the female audience that Marvel is likely courting with this film.

I think the mentor/pupil relationship works better given that Carol as Captain Marvel is essentially a legacy character. She is taking up his mantle and I think the movie is likely going to make that a large focus of the story. I think any Twlight-ish romantic angle would just get in the way of that. Make Mar-Vell Obi-Wan and let her romance someone else if we need a romance story.

Ooh, that's good to know. Is that during X-Men or Ms. Marvel's first run?

X-Men. This is when Claremont turned her into Binary, I believe.

 

[cph9fa]

X-Men. This is when Claremont turned her into Binary, I believe.

Correct. In her original run, Ms. Marvel did not have energy absorption or projection. She flew (originally due to technology in her suit, but later revealed to be an inherent ability), had Kree strength and training, a limited "seventh sense" precognition (as a plot device), and a sort of compartmentalized amnesia when she (unconsciously) transformed between Carol and Ms. Marvel.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It's going to be a safe assumption that they will streamline the origin of Carol gaining powers and fit it into the style and continuity of the MCU.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Correct. In her original run, Ms. Marvel did not have energy absorption or projection. She flew (originally due to technology in her suit, but later revealed to be an inherent ability), had Kree strength and training, a limited "seventh sense" precognition (as a plot device), and a sort of compartmentalized amnesia when she (unconsciously) transformed between Carol and Ms. Marvel.

How long did the amnesia thing last? Only the very first issue is available on Marvel Unlimited.

 

[cph9fa]

How long did the amnesia thing last? Only the very first issue is available on Marvel Unlimited.

Not very long. As early as issues 3-4, both sides became aware of, and initially resented, their other half (similar to Hulk). But by issue 13, they became fully integrated into the same personality.

 

[Loki882]

^Haha, I love it how the Psyche-Magnetron basically looks like an air conditioning unit in that drawing.

Well you got to figure that Kit is what, 8 years old or something. The amusing part, and also kind of sad in a way, is that her dialogue is still better than quite a few "professional" comic book writers.

 

[queendarkness12]

It should be an origin movie on the bases of the general audience not knowing about how Carol Danvers got her powers and how she became a hero.

It could be a semi-origin movie with flashbacks and telling a non-linear story.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I just wanted to bump this topic because it's relevant to the rumored John Ridley Marvel project. Now that project could be anything, but there are reports that it'll be a Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel show. That would create an awkward possibility of Ms. Marvel predating her idol, unless they were to decide to squeeze in Carol Danver's origin somewhere.

 

[Katsuro]

There should be a lot of setup for the origin in Infinity War Part I (possibl with Mar-Vell having a decent role) that way they can jump into things with the Captain Marvel movie.

 

[SlamAdams]

I just wanted to bump this topic because it's relevant to the rumored John Ridley Marvel project. Now that project could be anything, but there are reports that it'll be a Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel show. That would create an awkward possibility of Ms. Marvel predating her idol, unless they were to decide to squeeze in Carol Danver's origin somewhere.

That seems based almost entirely on the fact that John Ridley already created a show with Muslim characters

 

[Parker Wayne]

It should be an origin film like Batman, Guardians of the Galaxy and X-Men were origin films.

Because if we get the exact same plot of Superman: The Movie, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, and Batman Begins again, I'll put my head through a wall.

This.

I'm tired of the standard origin movie and I'm sure audiences are, too. We don't need 40-60 mintues of looking into a characters life and reasons for becoming a hero before becoming a hero.

Just show her in action and have her origins come up throughout the story, like the movies you mentioned.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

If they are gonna do Carol's origin I'd rather they use her solo movie to do it, and do it right, rather than doing a rushed version of it in some other Marvel movie just so we could get Carol in her costume faster. Don't sacrifice character and story for the action.

 

[fixxxer]

^

Agreed. While characters like Spider-Man don't need an origin story since we've been over the (almost) same exact beats twice in the recent past, to rush through Carol Danvers' origin story would be a mistake. Often, the origin story is where the bulk of the character development occurs and to poo-poo that would be a disservice to the character.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you would prefer to merely expand the last 20 minutes of Man Of Steel into a full length movie and call it Captain Marvel. "Hey, look! That CGI dot? That's Carol Danvers. She flies! She punches! She levels buildings with nihilistic abandon! Those other vaguely blue tinted CGI dots? Let's call them 'Kree'! Yay!" I'm sorry but I expect better.

While spectacle absolutely matters... it's what's putting all those butts in theater seats (mine included), spectacle without building a strong, human bond to the core of the character renders said spectacle utterly and completely meaningless.

Obviously, Carol's origin/history could use a bit of streamlining/alteration, just like almost every other comic book movie adaptation, but her's is among my favorite origin stories along with Dr. Strange, Cap and a few others. To not give Danvers' origin story the weight it deserves would be extremely disappointing to me.

 

[Mike5575]

^

Agreed. While characters like Spider-Man don't need an origin story since we've been over the (almost) same exact beats twice in the recent past, to rush through Carol Danvers' origin story would be a mistake. Often, the origin story is where the bulk of the character development occurs and to poo-poo that would be a disservice to the character.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you would prefer to merely expand the last 20 minutes of Man Of Steel into a full length movie and call it Captain Marvel. "Hey, look! That CGI dot? That's Carol Danvers. She flies! She punches! She levels buildings with nihilistic abandon! Those other vaguely blue tinted CGI dots? Let's call them 'Kree'! Yay!" I'm sorry but I expect better.

While spectacle absolutely matters... it's what's putting all those butts in theater seats (mine included), spectacle without building a strong, human bond to the core of the character renders said spectacle utterly and completely meaningless.

Obviously, Carol's origin/history could use a bit of streamlining/alteration, just like almost every other comic book movie adaptation, but her's is among my favorite origin stories along with Dr. Strange, Cap and a few others. To not give Danvers' origin story the weight it deserves would be extremely disappointing to me.

I hope Carol does in fact level buildings with her powers. That would be awesome. My hope is that she gets her origin story in Infinity War 1, but her powers don't manifest until her solo film.

 

[flickchick85]

I hope Carol does in fact level buildings with her powers. That would be awesome. My hope is that she gets her origin story in Infinity War 1, but her powers don't manifest until her solo film.

Yeah, that's kind of my hope, too. In my head, if the Kree are involved in the Infinity War (which seems likely to me with their prominence in the MCU and the fact that it's not just called 'Infinity Gauntlet') and pose a threat to Earth, then destroying the Psyche-Magnetron could be central to the climax of Infinity War: Part 1 and Carol and Mar-Vell would be part of the mission to do that. Then they can cause the explosion at the end to help (temporarily) save the day, and Carol and Mar-Vell's fates could be left up in the air until the Captain Marvel film, where we'll be introduced to her powers, he'll probably die, etc.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I don't know. Why have the Kree threaten earth and the Psyche-Magnetron stuff in Infinity War when you can do it in the Captain Marvel movie where it would be a better fit? Carol's origin should not have to share screen time with the Avengers and Thanos. I just don't think that's the best way to handle it.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't know. Why have the Kree threaten earth and the Psyche-Magnetron stuff in Infinity War when you can do it in the Captain Marvel movie where it would be a better fit? Carol's origin should not have to share screen time with the Avengers and Thanos. I just don't think that's the best way to handle it.

I just feel like if you wait and introduce the Kree threat to Earth in the actual Captain Marvel movie, then you have to really condense everything if you don't want her getting her powers toward the end of the movie. I want a full-on CAROL DANVERS Captain Marvel movie, not two acts of regular Carol and Mar-Vell before Carol gets her powers at the last minute and saves the day at the end. I want her to get her powers early on, if not already have them, and the most logical way to do that is introduce at least certain elements of her origin before that film.

For the record, I'd still expect the MAIN Kree threat to happen during her movie - maybe she takes Yon-Rogg and a whole Kree armada as Captain Marvel or something while the Avengers are away/out of commission - BUT Carol, Mar-Vell and the Psyche Magnetron (or whatever device) could be introduced in Infinity War: Part 1 no problem, imo. Remember, her movie comes in between the two Infinity War installments, so I'm just thinking whatever goes on in the Infinity War is what causes the Kree to make their move on Earth - I mean, it's not like Thanos will be threatening the entire universe so the Kree decide, "hey, let's just ignore that and check out this other planet we haven't been to in a while." No, the events of IW will be significantly linked to this film way or another, imo, whether it's by the presence of an infinity stone or if they want to pick up some of their ancient weapons or whatever. Black Panther's a different story because that's not a cosmic character, and they can actually take a break from the IW storyline to follow his Earthbound adventures, but I think Captain Marvel will be right in the thick of it. Especially since, even before the schedule was adjusted, her movie was ALWAYS scheduled to happen in between the Infinity Wars.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I just feel like if you wait and introduce the Kree threat to Earth in the actual Captain Marvel movie, then you have to really condense everything if you don't want her getting her powers toward the end of the movie. I want a full-on CAROL DANVERS Captain Marvel movie, not two acts of regular Carol and Mar-Vell before Carol gets her powers at the last minute and saves the day at the end. I want her to get her powers early on, if not already have them, and the most logical way to do that is introduce at least certain elements of her origin before that film.

For the record, I'd still expect the MAIN Kree threat to happen during her movie - maybe she takes Yon-Rogg and a whole Kree armada as Captain Marvel or something while the Avengers are away/out of commission - BUT Carol, Mar-Vell and the Psyche Magnetron (or whatever device) could be introduced in Infinity War: Part 1 no problem, imo. Remember, her movie comes in between the two Infinity War installments, so I'm just thinking whatever goes on in the Infinity War is what causes the Kree to make their move on Earth - I mean, it's not like Thanos will be threatening the entire universe so the Kree decide, "hey, let's just ignore that and check out this other planet we haven't been to in a while." No, the events of IW will be significantly linked to this film way or another, imo, whether it's by the presence of an infinity stone or if they want to pick up some of their ancient weapons or whatever. Black Panther's a different story because that's not a cosmic character, and they can actually take a break from the IW storyline to follow his Earthbound adventures, but I think Captain Marvel will be right in the thick of it. Especially since, even before the schedule was adjusted, her movie was ALWAYS scheduled to happen in between the Infinity Wars.

Here is my mindset on this.

Guardians of the Galaxy had Infinity War setup (Thanos and the Power Stone as the main weapon of destruction/maguffin) and established Marvel cosmic stuff like the Kree and Celestials and stuff like that, but it's primary focus was on the Guardians of the Galaxy. I think the Captain Marvel movie should be handled in a similar manner. It should be as standalone as possible, and not just feel like it's Avengers Infinity War part 2.

Because I think that would take away a lot of the shine from the actual Infinity War part 2, and take away the focus of what the Captain Marvel movie should really be about... which is introducing Carol Danvers as a main character in the MCU. Leave the world building and set up for future movies in the background where they should be, and not make that the primary focus.

I also think Carol Danvers is just as interesting of a character without superpowers as she is with them, so I don't see why she can't be the main character of the Captain Marvel movie even before she gets her powers in it, or why she can't get her powers at the end of act one as opposed to act three. We don't need to wait two acts to get Carol her powers, or spend too much time showcasing Mar-Vell as a superhero when giving him an Obi-Wan like role where all of his cosmic superhero adventuring took place in the past, would probably be more effective in the long run.

Maybe that's just me.

 

[flickchick85]

I also think Carol Danvers is just as interesting of a character without superpowers as she is with them, so I don't see why she can't be the main character of the Captain Marvel movie even before she gets her powers in it, or why she can't get her powers at the end of act one as opposed to act three. We don't need to wait two acts to get Carol her powers, or spend too much time showcasing Mar-Vell as a superhero when giving him an Obi-Wan like role where all of his cosmic superhero adventuring took place in the past, would probably be more effective in the long run.

Maybe that's just me.

Because the how/why of getting her powers requires a lot of set-up. Act One of a film is for establishing your characters/setting, before ending with an inciting incident. If you include in that 1st act a Kree invasion and a whole bunch of circumstances that get Carol next to an exploding Kree device, that would give us like zero time to actually get to know Carol in her natural habitat and her backstory or develop her relationship with Mar-Vell before we change her life/circumstances forever. If Black Panther's getting introduced and established 2 years early in CW (not to mention the seeds being planted for his world in AoU), with the relatively cut-and-dry origin of his powers/significance, I see no reason Carol shouldn't get that kind of time to organically establish her place in the MCU as well. Saving it all for the one movie really hampers and cuts down her story/development, imo. She was a character in the Marvel Universe well before she became a superhero, and had her accident in another story before getting her own title. I see no reason the same can't happen in the MCU.

A large part of the reason I feel this way is because I don't want to see just another origin story. We've gotten enough of those, and the "ho-hum" reactions to Ant-Man's trailers have really hit home with me how antiquated that formula feels at this point in the golden age of superhero movies. If we get the majority of that pesky origin out of the way in a different movie, we can focus on a movie largely with Carol AS Captain Marvel, having Captain Marvel-y problems instead of the nuts and bolts of how this happened to her.

 

[Mad Ones]

I completely agree with flickchick.

I'm excited to see a scene where she flies in space for the first time. We've seen superheroes fly on Earth and we've seen the Guardians of the Galaxy inside space ships. So I think showing Carol launch from Earth and not stopping once she hits space would be such a great visual, and it can happen in either Infinity War or her solo movie.

 

[KangConquers]

Carol's origin is problematic, in that she's a supporting character in her own ascension to Superheroism. I'd give her origins in a combination of a pre-credit scene, and flashbacks. Tell us about Mar-Vell etc, but don't make it the focus of the movie.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Because the how/why of getting her powers requires a lot of set-up. Act One of a film is for establishing your characters/setting, before ending with an inciting incident. If you include in that 1st act a Kree invasion and a whole bunch of circumstances that get Carol next to an exploding Kree device, that would give us like zero time to actually get to know Carol in her natural habitat and her backstory or develop her relationship with Mar-Vell before we change her life/circumstances forever.

Why does it need to require any more set up than Steve Rogers becoming Captain America did?

Captain America The First Avenger wasn't about the super soldier serum that gave Steve Rogers a six pack. It wasn't about the scientist that created it. It also wasn't about Bucky Barns or Peggy Carter or Howard Stark. A Carol Danvers Captain Marvel movie would also not really be about the Kree, or Mar-Vell, or the Psyche-Magnetron that gave her her powers. So why would you need to devote any more screen time to these things than is absolutely necessary to further Carol's story?

If Black Panther's getting introduced and established 2 years early in CW (not to mention the seeds being planted for his world in AoU), with the relatively cut-and-dry origin of his powers/significance, I see no reason Carol shouldn't get that kind of time to organically establish her place in the MCU as well. Saving it all for the one movie really hampers and cuts down her story/development, imo.

Are we going to get Black Panther's origin in Civil War? I sure hope not, because that would be just as dumb as shoehorning Carol Danvers origin into Avengers Infinity War part 1. I don't see how you would be able to do justice to that backstory in a Civil War movie.

So let me get this straight. You think putting Carol Danvers superhero origin in a CAROL DANVERS CAPTAIN MARVEL MOVIE (where she is like... you know... the main character and stuff) "hampers and cuts down her story/development"... but yet shoving it into another character's movie (that is not even about her) is perfectly fine for her character development...

...ummm okay...

In what world does that make any sense?

As for Black Panther in Civil War; he is going to have Captain America and Iron Man trying to get him on their side because his country controls a rare and powerful metal. That introduction makes him a big time player in the MCU. Introducing him in Civil War in that manner works awesomely well for him as a character. You can do that with him. That's fine. That works.

You cannot do that with Carol Danvers the Air Force Major. Nor Carol Danvers the head of security at NASA. Because what kind of intro can you give her in that role as a supporting character that doesn't just make her another Maria Hill or Sharon Carter? What kind of impact could she possibly make in that kind of a role? Certainly not the kind Black Panther is going to likely have on Civil War as a supporting character, so it would just be a waste of an introduction.

That is why that comparison really doesn't work.

She was a character in the Marvel Universe well before she became a superhero, and had her accident in another story before getting her own title. I see no reason the same can't happen in the MCU.

That's because she was never originally intended to be a superhero. She only became one because they trademarked the name Ms. Marvel and needed a female character to be called that they could keep it. She was also a supporting character to Captain Mar-Vell. That is ultimately why her origin as a superhero took place in his book.

But how the comics did it originally doesn't work in this case, because that character isn't going to be the star of the Captain Marvel movie and isn't going to be a main character in the MCU even if or when he gets introduced. So why make her a supporting character to a man that is ultimately going to be a supporting character himself in this universe?

That just diminishes her importance, and gets her introduction into the MCU off on the wrong foot. That is not going to do her any favors when you ask people to pay money to watch a movie in the theater that features her as the main character.

A large part of the reason I feel this way is because I don't want to see just another origin story. We've gotten enough of those, and the "ho-hum" reactions to Ant-Man's trailers have really hit home with me how antiquated that formula feels at this point in the golden age of superhero movies. If we get the majority of that pesky origin out of the way in a different movie, we can focus on a movie largely with Carol AS Captain Marvel, having Captain Marvel-y problems instead of the nuts and bolts of how this happened to her.

You don't want "just another origin story" but you do want to have a ****** shoehorned version of it in an Avengers movie that is supposed to be about Thanos and the Infinity Stones...

...ummm yeah no let's NOT do that.

Because if you do that, you are just going to short change both her story and that Avengers movie and what story it needs to tell and what it needs to set up for it's story in part 2. That is not fair to either one.

And I liked the second Ant-Man trailer, but I am not expecting an ANT-MAN movie to be a great all time classic comic book movie regardless of how it wants to tell it's story. Because it's Ant-Man for **** sake.

 

[flickchick85]

Why does it need to require any more set up than Steve Rogers becoming Captain America did?

Captain America The First Avenger wasn't about the super soldier serum that gave Steve Rogers a six pack. It wasn't about the scientist that created it. It also wasn't about Bucky Barns or Peggy Carter or Howard Stark. A Carol Danvers Captain Marvel movie would also not really be about the Kree, or Mar-Vell, or the Psyche-Magnetron that gave her her powers. So why would you need to devote any more screen time to these things than is absolutely necessary to further Carol's story?



Are we going to get Black Panther's origin in Civil War? I sure hope not, because that would be just as dumb as shoehorning Carol Danvers origin into Avengers Infinity War part 1. I don't see how you would be able to do justice to that backstory in a Civil War movie.

So let me get this straight. You think putting Carol Danvers superhero origin in a CAROL DANVERS CAPTAIN MARVEL MOVIE (where she is like... you know... the main character and stuff) "hampers and cuts down her story/development"... but yet shoving it into another character's movie (that is not even about her) is perfectly fine for her character development...

...ummm okay...

In what world does that make any sense?

As for Black Panther in Civil War; he is going to have Captain America and Iron Man trying to get him on their side because his country controls a rare and powerful metal. That introduction makes him a big time player in the MCU. Introducing him in Civil War in that manner works awesomely well for him as a character. You can do that with him. That's fine. That works.

You cannot do that with Carol Danvers the Air Force Major. Nor Carol Danvers the head of security at NASA. Because what kind of intro can you give her in that role as a supporting character that doesn't just make her another Maria Hill or Sharon Carter? What kind of impact could she possibly make in that kind of a role? Certainly not the kind Black Panther is going to likely have on Civil War as a supporting character, so it would just be a waste of an introduction.

That is why that comparison really doesn't work.



That's because she was never originally intended to be a superhero. She only became one because they trademarked the name Ms. Marvel and needed a female character to be called that they could keep it. She was also a supporting character to Captain Mar-Vell. That is ultimately why her origin as a superhero took place in his book.

But how the comics did it originally doesn't work in this case, because that character isn't going to be the star of the Captain Marvel movie and isn't going to be a main character in the MCU even if or when he gets introduced. So why make her a supporting character to a man that is ultimately going to be a supporting character himself in this universe?

That just diminishes her importance, and gets her introduction into the MCU off on the wrong foot. That is not going to do her any favors when you ask people to pay money to watch a movie in the theater that features her as the main character.



You don't want "just another origin story" but you do want to have a ****** shoehorned version of it in an Avengers movie that is supposed to be about Thanos and the Infinity Stones...

...ummm yeah no let's NOT do that.

Because if you do that, you are just going to short change both her story and that Avengers movie and what story it needs to tell and what it needs to set up for it's story in part 2. That is not fair to either one.

I don't know how else to say it, except like Kang said, unlike the origin story of every other hero you've discussed, Carol isn't the star of hers. She's collateral damage in someone else's story, the the love-interest who became the star. Which means she doesn't take center stage until AFTER she gets powers. As a result, any notable character arc Carol has had occurred after she got those powers because that's when the stories became about her. That's why her movie should kick-off there, imo.

Obviously we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine. I'm not saying your way couldn't work, it's a perfectly valid way to go. I'd just prefer something else.