Should Veidt live or die?

[Gilpesh]

You're an idiot. The current administration should thank you.

Truman would have been hung at Nuremburg if the US lost WWII. And you say that scale of innocence doesn't matter, yet you gladly disregard the lives of Japanese civilians just cause their country decided to ally with the wrong nation. And, they were planning to drop more. That's right, the 'leader of the free world' was ready to kill as many Japanese civilians. So if anything Truman was worse than Veidt, Truman is just looking to make peace for the US by killing people where Veidt was looking to kill some New Yorkers to SAVE THE WORLD.

But guess what, it is mass murder in both cases. Truman killed and Veidt killed, they have done the exact same thing for the greater good.

more personal attacks.

Funny, you missed a little bit of my post where I clearly explain my point past. "No not listening, la la la la la la, not listening."

 

[Mysterio]

what is more important: that Veidt lives, or that the other "heroes" (minus Rorschach) go along with the conspiracy and agree to keep silent? i think it's the latter.

 

[Mysterio]

Funny, you missed a little bit of my post

i didn't miss anything. there was no need to read beyond the word "idiot" in order to see that you don't have anything constructive or intelligent to say. why should i afford you respect that you are unwilling to give others?

 

[Qwerty©]

what is more important: that Veidt lives, or that the other "heroes" (minus Rorschach) go along with the conspiracy and agree to keep silent? i think it's the latter.

Veidt dieng cheapens the ending, because the whole point of them keeping it a secret is that it means Veidt gets away with it, this doesn't happen if he gets killed.

You're right, as long as they keep it a secret it still has the same outcome, but it's similar to having Superman teleported to earth as a baby rather than rocketed. Same outcome, but it just isn't as good.

 

[Mysterio]

Veidt dieng cheapens the ending, because the whole point of them keeping it a secret is that it means Veidt gets away with it, this doesn't happen if he gets killed.

You're right, as long as they keep it a secret it still has the same outcome, but it's similar to having Superman teleported to earth as a baby rather than rocketed. Same outcome, but it just isn't as good.

but we're clearly led to believe that he doesn't get away with it, and that the truth will be made public when the kid grabs Rorschach's journal at the end. so really, while his plan has succeeded to a degree, the truth will be revealed.

 

[Motown Marvel]

so you are unable to say what they are, explain them and your position, and were just talking out your ass. so you cover by resorting to personal attacks.

im willing to discuss the story with someone who has a proper understanding of of it. but im not here to play teacher and explain the story to you, just so you can understand it in order for us to discuss it. this story is all about the layers. thats one of the things that makes it the masterpiece it is. if you didnt recognize and understand that yourself when it was laid out by alan moore, then i find it hard to believe you'll recognize and understand it when its laid out by me.

oh, and debate this: how about they keep veidt alive because thats how it is in the book and they should be as true to the source material as reasonably possible?

 

[Overman27pj]

but we're clearly led to believe that he doesn't get away with it, and that the truth will be made public when the kid grabs Rorschach's journal at the end. so really, while his plan has succeeded to a degree, the truth will be revealed.

You also realize that the New Frontiersman is A conspiracy theory publication and not exactly recognized as the best news source. Think like a more serious weekly world news.

There is no certianity that the truth will be revealed, in fact, I doubt a large portion of the general population would ever even hear of it.

There is also no evidence other than a known psychopath/criminal's journal.

But you didn't get that either...

 

[Lobster Charlie]

Keeping Veidt alive shows that there's some hope left in the world, at the end of the story. And it shows that Rorschach's mission, which is really the backbone of this story, is complete. Even though Rorschach fails to best Veidt in physical combat, and even though Doctor Manhattan kills him in order to "shut him up," Rorschach has the last laugh.

I know Alan Moore has stated before that he doesn't like how so many readers have taken a liking to Rorschach's character, but it's inevitable---we all love the anti-hero. Keep Veidt alive, and we all leave the theatre with a slight smile on our faces, and we have something to talk about. Kill him, and it's just another action movie.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

You also realize that the New Frontiersman is A conspiracy theory publication and not exactly recognized as the best news source. Think like a more serious weekly world news.

There is no certianity that the truth will be revealed, in fact, I doubt a large portion of the general population would ever even hear of it.

There is also no evidence other than a known psychopath/criminal's journal.

But you didn't get that either...

You make a really good point. But I think it's written to give us a faint glimmer of hope for justice. It also seems to be a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment on Moore's part--like "only the crazy people know the truth." I know there's a more succinct way of saying that, I just forget how it goes.

 

[Overman27pj]

oh, and debate this: how about they keep veidt alive because thats how it is in the book and they should be as true to the source material as reasonably possible?

What makes a good graphic novel and what makes a good movie are different things....I feel like changes can be debateable if they actually help the story or not, but I could care less about keeping something as close to the source material as possible just for the sake of it...

I feel that keeping the integrety of the story, the points that the author are trying to convey to the audience, to be the most important part in translation.

Unfortuneatly, they don't make these movies for the hardcore fans, they make them for the masses...they got $150 mil to recoup...but also fortuneatly, if they do a good enough product it will make more people read this fabulous book!!!

 

[Overman27pj]

You make a really good point. But I think it's written to give us a faint glimmer of hope for justice. It also seems to be a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment on Moore's part--like "only the crazy people know the truth." I know there's a more succinct way of saying that, I just forget how it goes.

Spot on.

 

[Mysterio]

im willing to discuss the story with someone who has a proper understanding of of it. but im not here to play teacher and explain the story to you, just so you can understand it in order for us to discuss it. this story is all about the layers. thats one of the things that makes it the masterpiece it is. if you didnt recognize and understand that yourself when it was laid out by alan moore, then i find it hard to believe you'll recognize and understand it when its laid out by me.

i'm not asking you to explain them; i'm asking you to identify them. you keep going on with "it's all about the layers," but then you are unable to say what these layers are. looks like my assessment was spot on.

 

[Mysterio]

You also realize that the New Frontiersman is A conspiracy theory publication and not exactly recognized as the best news source. Think like a more serious weekly world news.

of course, but that doesn't change the fact that the truth is known and will be made public.

There is no certianity that the truth will be revealed, in fact, I doubt a large portion of the general population would ever even hear of it.

that isn't a contradiction. it isn't necessary for a certain percentage of the population to believe it. the fact is, the truth has been made known and will be published. whether people believe it or not and/or what the outcome will be is up in the air, but the truth will be printed. it's right there in the final panels.

 

[Overman27pj]

Yes it will get printed, but your acting like it will be a 'be all end all' for Viedt! I'm saying barely anyone will read it, and even some of those people wouldn't believe it.

I would hardly be worried/afriad if I was Viedt, and don't you think that he has the recources to discredit the publication further, and even to go as far as killing the editors? A small stretch from what he has done so far!

 

[Motown Marvel]

What makes a good graphic novel and what makes a good movie are different things....I feel like changes can be debateable if they actually help the story or not, but I could care less about keeping something as close to the source material as possible just for the sake of it...

I feel that keeping the integrety of the story, the points that the author are trying to convey to the audience, to be the most important part in translation.

Unfortuneatly, they don't make these movies for the hardcore fans, they make them for the masses...they got $150 mil to recoup...but also fortuneatly, if they do a good enough product it will make more people read this fabulous book!!!

i agree with that. i just figured that was the only point Mysterio's closed mind might be able to go along with. but obviously, keeping veidt alive goes hand in hand with the integrity of the story and the points moore is trying to convey.

i'm not asking you to explain them; i'm asking you to identify them. you keep going on with "it's all about the layers," but then you are unable to say what these layers are. looks like my assessment was spot on.

mmhm, sure thing, pal.

 

[Mysterio]

Yes it will get printed, but your acting like it will be a 'be all end all' for Viedt! I'm saying barely anyone will read it, and even some of those people wouldn't believe it.

lol. "be all end all"...i'm not saying that at all. if the argument is "you can't kill Viedt because he gets away with it," it's untrue - he doesn't completely get away with it. the truth is not covered up. that happens whether he lives or is killed. the journal has been mailed out regardless, and the paper runs with it regardless.

 

[Mysterio]

i agree with that. i just figured that was the only point Mysterio's closed mind might be able to go along with. but obviously, keeping veidt alive goes hand in hand with the integrity of the story and the points moore is trying to convey.

there are a lot of closed minds around here. they're the ones who use phrases like, "you wouldn't understand," "you're hopeless," or "you're an idiot."

 

[Motown Marvel]

there are a lot of closed minds around here. they're the ones who use phrases like, "you wouldn't understand," "you're hopeless," or "you're an idiot."

theres a difference between a closed mind and what seems to be a legit assessment.

 

[Gilpesh]

theres a difference between a closed mind and what seems to be a legit assessment.

And losing it after stating the same logical and fact based opinion over and over and over again to the same response. Apparently he didn't read my statement on the other page just cause I called a spade a spade...

Funny how that statement would sink his argument.

 

[Mysterio]

theres a difference between a closed mind and what seems to be a legit assessment.

that difference doesn't exist here. if i had a closed mind, i wouldn't be able - or i'd refuse - to see other's viewpoints. i do, and i understand them; however, i disagree with some of them. that doesn't make one close minded. you're the one preaching about the many layers and it's complexity, etc., and yet, my reading and interpretation can't possibly be one of these layers? what's the point in having a discussion if one side is only interested in shouting down the other side with namecalling, insults, and the like? but then, discussion can't exist anyway when one side refuses to even back up their statements.

 

[Motown Marvel]

that difference doesn't exist here. if i had a closed mind, i wouldn't be able - or i'd refuse - to see other's viewpoints. i do, and i understand them; however, i disagree with some of them. that doesn't make one close minded. you're the one preaching about the many layers and it's complexity, etc., and yet, my reading and interpretation can't possibly be one of these layers? what's the point in having a discussion if one side is only interested in shouting down the other side with namecalling, insults, and the like? but then, discussion can't exist anyway when one side refuses to even back up their statements.

actually, i straight up told you that your recognition of the anti-nuke/war/etc IS one of the layers. but not the only one. i merely stated that there are numerous other and equally important layers involved with the story that you're either ignoring, not understanding, or not recognizing. likewise, im not here to explain that to you. you should go back, read the book, open your mind, and pay closer attention this time.

 

[Mysterio]

actually, i straight up told you that your recognition of the anti-nuke/war/etc IS one of the layers. but not the only one. i merely stated that there are numerous other and equally important layers involved with the story that you're either ignoring, not understanding, or not recognizing. likewise, im not here to explain that to you. you should go back, read the book, open your mind, and pay closer attention this time.

again, i'm not asking you to explain them; i'm asking you to identify them. you said "while veidt being killed might work fine with the layer you're recognizing, it blatantly contrasts the other layers at work in watchmen." so which of these other layers that his being killed would "blantantly contrast"? if you're going to make that statement, you should have the ability and willingness to back it up, especially given the title of this thread: "should veidt live or die?" you don't have anything to worry about; i'm not going to call you names or make fun of you.

 

[Gilpesh]

One layer, shades of gray.

Aka Truman bombing Japan and Veidt 'bombing' New York. Both morally gray areas.

 

[Motown Marvel]

another layer, the deconstruction of the comic book medium and the archtypes of characters involved.

 

[Overman27pj]

The book also explores many philosophical themes...

Determinism v. Free will

The merits of Utolatarianism

Morals

The meaning of existance

What is god?

and that is all without deleving into the specific character questions!