Superman Returns Simple Test Dummy: Sans Routh, which suit is "stronger"?

[gdw]

Actually Frank isn't an anamoly since jim Lee does it as well.

I believe he was refering to how Frank draws the cape always covering the shoulders.

Any who, A tightER collar is one thing, as we see here, it CAN look goo, BUT the differences are that it is still a straight cut, and the muscles right on the side of the neck are seen. These can be covered by the cape and it still looks good, but having the collar go right up there just looks silly.

 

[JamalYIgle]

Any pictures ?

 

[gdw]

Oh yes, and as for the "covering up the padding" argument, complete b-s. Aside from the fact that the padded parts sound like they are actually integrated into the suit, all they would have had to do, were it a separate suit, is give it a lower collar too. It's not like they actually have collar bone padding.


It's a complete b-s argument.

AND it also does nothing to justify it from an esthetic stand point. As we ca see, clearly a tightER collar was workable, but what they specifically went with looks like crap.

Just a truely weak look, for design, and power, and especially for giving it that "regal" look they were so vocal about saying it had to begin with. What they have if everything BUT regal in it's look.

 

[JamalYIgle]

I thought the design choices-the high collar, the smaller 'S' for example- were made because they simply looked better on Routh, not just when he was standing still but when he was moving around and actually doing things.

I let the lady speak for herself:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dan:� When we came on the film, there�s been a few different versions of the startup of this film�with McG�and we actually got the archive.� (It) was to our advantage, actually, seeing what the other versions of the trial and errors that went on.� And we actually showed that to Bryan and Bryan immediately wanted to go with a retro, like the vintage, classic iconic look of Superman.� These are the three renderings that Louise had done up which we showed to the studio and they immediately, basically, approved this look.� Am I right Louise?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Louise:� Yeah, um hmm.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dan:� From here we had about two and a half months to deliver our first prototype of the costume which was about ten months less than the previous version of the costume and the designer and the director.� So we had to move really quick.� We had a great team back in Burbank of sculptors, molders, model people, specialty costumers that kind of helped us through the way.� [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Louise:� And when we first did that illustration it didn�t have Brandon�s head in it.� Obviously there was no Brandon and it was just kind of a generic Superman head.� And then we replaced it once he was cast.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dan:� So it was quite a quick start up process for us and (we) had the pressure of a two month prototype that the studio said doesn�t have to be the final product but it just has to be 80% there which for us means suicide because if you don�t show them something that�s right and that you don�t believe in, then it is virtually costume suicide.� (Laugh)� Anyway, from that moment really, the prototyping process was very limited.� We had to put our faith in what we believe was right and there was small modifications along the way because we had, we were using a fit model that was a completely different proportion than Brandon so we had got it dialed in and right for this person and then when Brandon was cast it was completely wrong because of body proportions and muscle tone and width of shoulders and that sort of thing, so we did make minor changes but we went with what the studio approved and we ran it.� And here it is.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[bsquad]

so they went with a design that was approved and made modifications so that it worked with Brandon's body type

 

[Kryptonite]

The singer suit looks better. Why? It's more of a bodysuit, which is what its for, rather than a goofy costume. The higher neckline is more modern.

As for the logos, the smaller logos seem more in line with that is Kryptonian, rather than the over-the-top logo that is more for just a costume. Keep in mind, my impression is that the suit is just a Kryptonian uniform that Kal-El wears. Not a disguise.

Also Singer already said he couldnt have that logo that big because it would interfere with the way the chest stretches and contracts when Routh moves. It would bend and fold and look stupid

 

[bsquad]

even Dean Cain had the small 'S' during the first episode of his show. I actually preferred that version to the one he used later on in the series.

In the end whatever looks best on the actor should be used

 

[rdh007]

The one on the left.

 

[gdw]

I have almost no problem with most of the SR suit, also, when people keep saying "the SR one, deffinately looks better" they are often dismissing, not the DESIGN of the "manips" but rather the simple fact that their quality just won't compare. Of course it wont, but that's not the issue, it's the design.

And very clearly the neck line alone, is simply BAD design. It has absolutely NO heroic value or estetic.

 

[skruloos]

And very clearly the neck line alone, is simply BAD design. It has absolutely NO heroic value or estetic.

This is always a strange argument to me because I must have been raised differently or something but I just don't see how an open collar gives off the impression of heroism. I don't think Captain Marvel is any less heroic then Superman because he has a higher neckline. I don't think the FF or X-Men were any less heroic in their movie costumes because of their higher neckline.

 

[Wushuboy]

Perhaps this will illustrate a point

To me, it's not that the artists are drawing a higher collar.. it's that they artistically change where they choose the cape attachment or how much cape they put on supes. They're not changing the neckline of the suit at all.. it's just the way they draw the cape which makes it seem like a tighter neckline. Adam Kubert might be different but pete woods, jim lee all have the standard open neckline. Look at where jim lee draws the neckline.. right at the collar bone AND he shows the trap muscles. Pete Woods' superman would be the same if you took out the cape. The reason it looks like a tighter neckline is because they all draw the cape different not the main suit. All of their renditions have the standard straight across the collar bone cut and none have that ROUND tshirt neckline. Even Quietly's superman has a straight cut. He chooses to draw the cape attachment the same place where Pete Woods draws it which is close to the inner collar bone and he also gives superman much more cape than jim lee does. Look at the differing amounts of cape the two artists give superman.

Seriously.. if i gave you these three drawings unlabeled and you had NEVER seen the routh suit.. which one would you think looks least like superman?

 

[skruloos]

Seriously.. if i gave you these three drawings unlabeled and you had NEVER seen the routh suit.. which one would you think looks least like superman?

All of them. Like look like drawings of a guy with a cape. Could be Supreme or Majestic for all I know. I don't associate the cape design or collar with Superman whatsoever.

 

[Wushuboy]

i asked which one looked LEAST liked superman knowing that they're all supposed to be superman...that's a simple answer.. you just have to choose one.

 

[skruloos]

i asked which one looked LEAST liked superman knowing that they're all supposed to be superman...that's a simple answer.. you just have to choose one.

Then neither. Neither one looks more like Superman or least like Superman to me.

 

[gdw]

This is always a strange argument to me because I must have been raised differently or something but I just don't see how an open collar gives off the impression of heroism. I don't think Captain Marvel is any less heroic then Superman because he has a higher neckline. I don't think the FF or X-Men were any less heroic in their movie costumes because of their higher neckline.

Yes, but it's the way the collar works with the CAPE.

As has been pointed out here before, a tighter collar works, but it's the way the cape comes from it.

The Routh design just makes it look limp.

It's about how the cape is made to look majestic, rather then like it is just there. Being just wrapped aroung like it is, looks like a rather weak attachment as well.

A cape, in all their uses, is used to add a heroic majestic look. A large part of that goes with the way it flows behind them, BUT the wasy ithangs off their shoulders it also greatly mportent.

Even looking at those who have capes that tie up in the front, held by strings, or cord, like Cpt. Marvel, the cape is still portrayed to come lower. When a cape looks like it just hangs off the neck, it looks weak.

It should look more like it comes from the shoulders, strongly routed in. Or even from the collar bone area. It adds to the sense that it's more a part of the actul costume, rather then just something tied on.

And with the Returns suit, that's what it looks like, like it's just tied on there and it is not really a part of the costume, compared to the way other capes are.

Seriously, anyone here, try tofind pictures of capes, from comics and not, and see how they are attached, and which ones look majestic and heroic.

 

[gdw]

Perhaps this will illustrate a point

I think this is a great example of how the neck line and cape are actually making Routh look smaller.

Ignoring the middle one, because it actually IS a bigger neck, look at the first (Routh) and last (Pete Wood) and you can see the difference in how Routh's just looks scrawnier and weaker.

Actually, the Pete one is actually a SMALLER neck, if you check them. Also, to expand on my other post, the only times when those tighter capes lok good is when they are all the way around in front, like the hooded ones, or like a dracula cape. Theyt come right over the shoules.

I still want to see pics of different capes and try to tell me they look better tight.

 

[Wushuboy]

sorry i did not draw them to scale.. it was just a quick sketch. but what i wanted to emphasize was how the comic artists dont draw the neckline different but the amount of cape and where the cape is attached. If you look at the red dots and the red arrows you'll see the different. Routh is attached and starts at the SIDE of his neck. Whereas in comics and even in that bryan hitch poster that's in the new SFX mag, the cape attachment is clearly in the front somewhere by the collar bone which lets the cape flow up and over the shoulders. What i find funny is that bryan hitch.. a fan favorite... used a released photo of routh as reference and even he didnt choose to give him the tshirt neckline instead he changed it giving him the standard open neckline. Makes you wonder doesnt it why he did that. Wonder why he didnt choose to be totally faithful to the movie costume

 

[gdw]

Don't worry, I wasn't complaining about the proportions, infact it worked well with the last one being smaller, but looking bigger

As for this:

This still actually goes towards what I've been saying, they bring the cape forwar over him, rathe then falling behind him like the SR one does.

And even with the one above, based on the SR costume, infact EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF ART based on the SR costume has fixed the damn neck line and cape.

DAMMIT I'm pissed that they screwed that part up. It is such a simple thing, and it would make it look SO much better. It would even make the \S/ look better, it looks very detached with so much space above it before anything changes,and also how the space above it swoops up, to where th neck line is. Just bad.

Looks better with a more striaght space above it.

 

[JamalYIgle]

Don't worry, I wasn't complaining about the proportions, infact it worked well with the last one being smaller, but looking bigger

As for this:



This still actually goes towards what I've been saying, they bring the cape forwar over him, rathe then falling behind him like the SR one does.

And even with the one above, based on the SR costume, infact EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF ART based on the SR costume has fixed the damn neck line and cape.

DAMMIT I'm pissed that they screwed that part up. It is such a simple thing, and it would make it look SO much better. It would even make the \S/ look better, it looks very detached with so much space above it before anything changes,and also how the space above it swoops up, to where th neck line is. Just bad.

Looks better with a more striaght space above it.

The"More straight space above it" as you call it? Doesn't exist in nature. The same thing with Bryan's peice.It's an interpretation and from what i was told something he had to turn around in a very short amount of time for SFX. The only way you could do it in live action would be to have the chest portion of brandons costume pasted down with Spirit gum. Otherwise it wouldn't look that way.

 

[gdw]

The"More straight space above it" as you call it? Doesn't exist in nature. The same thing with Bryan's peice.It's an interpretation and from what i was told something he had to turn around in a very short amount of time for SFX. The only way you could do it in live action would be to have the chest portion of brandons costume pasted down with Spirit gum. Otherwise it wouldn't look that way.

What??, Not in nature? Not sure what you mean, but clothes all together aren't in nature. But they've done the straight scross neck line several times already. Not that hard to do either.

Hell, they could just do a quick hem job on the actual suit and fix it. As for the cape, well, they wouldn't even have to do and R&D to fix the attachment, as it's been done also.

 

[Spare-Flair]

All of them. Like look like drawings of a guy with a cape. Could be Supreme or Majestic for all I know. I don't associate the cape design or collar with Superman whatsoever.

Then I think you would be in the minority if important elements of Superman's look aren't associated with Superman in your mind. Cape attachments are one of the MOST important factors in identifying Superheroes because they are often the largest and most dynamic feature of any suit after the symbol and colors. Look at how Batman's capes at cut in size and shape and how it is attached in the comics so it it becomes part of the cowel and drapes over the top of his body. It's part of his icongraphy.

Wushuboy, those are great sketches, of course I would choose the Jim Lee version. The Routh version truely is a T-Shirt cut.

 

[Zigno]

could be worst...

 

[Wushuboy]

The"More straight space above it" as you call it? Doesn't exist in nature. The same thing with Bryan's peice.It's an interpretation and from what i was told something he had to turn around in a very short amount of time for SFX. The only way you could do it in live action would be to have the chest portion of brandons costume pasted down with Spirit gum. Otherwise it wouldn't look that way.

This doesnt make sense at all. On such a big major picture, they only had a short time to make costume decisions for SFX? Hey Jamal,, care to share a picture of adam's artwork where he has the tshirt opening that doesnt rest on the collar bone? I'd like to see it. As far as the tshirt opening making it into comics.. doubt it.. like i said.. the straight collar is a mainstay now and it's only how the artist interprets the amoun of cape and cape attachement thats changes giving you the impression that the neckline is tighter.. but in actuality is not. It's still open. If you can show me an image from the comics of superman with that tight tshirt opening id realy like to see it, preferrably with superman without the cape so i can be sure its not an open collar.

 

[gdw]

I'll give you Brandon has good taste.

I wonder how jealous she is that Brandon gets to spend all this time with Kate Bosworth..

See, now doesn't his neck look thinker with a more open collar, of any kind?

 

[Wushuboy]

could be worst...

LOL.. i wonder if skrulos would think that was fine as superman since well.. its still just a guy with a cape. Superman's cape attachment and neckline is a big design element of his costume.