Why the hate for Wolverine?

[XCharlieX]

Eh i edited a post trying to reply...fixed now...

The repressed side of jean that xavier held back for her own good, at least that was the intention of Xavier.

As a sidenote to this, many folks say xavier was out of character in x3.. well..x3 has made me realize a few things about x1s interaction with logan and Xavier... Charles is manipulative if its for the greater good. He is not the morally perfect man people thought he was, but he feels sometimes it must be done for the better. He let Logan smoke anywhere he wanted (except in cerebro lol) he let him talk back to him and everything with simple kindness in return. I think the reason was because he was "afraid of losing one of your precious x -men" as Erik said. He knew wolverine was a very useful asset to the team, so he manipulated wolverine into comng closer when he couldve just set the ground rules down and wolverine wouldve just flipped the bird and left lol.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Eh i edited a post trying to reply...fixed now...



As a sidenote to this, many folks say xavier was out of character in x3.. well..x3 has made me realize a few things about x1s interaction with logan and Xavier... Charles is manipulative if its for the greater good. He is not the morally perfect man people thought he was, but he feels sometimes it must be done for the better. He let Logan smoke anywhere he wanted (except in cerebro lol) he let him talk back to him and everything with simple kindness in return. I think the reason was because he was "afraid of losing one of your precious x -men" as Erik said. He knew wolverine was a very useful asset to the team, so he manipulated wolverine into comng closer when he couldve just set the ground rules down and wolverine wouldve just flipped the bird and left lol.

Exactly. Well put.

 

[XCharlieX]

Oh and he also held back the info about his past potentially.. still not sure about that. It was funny timing how he gave the "mind is not a box that can be unlocked" speech right when he needed a babysitter hahaha

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

"i'll give u 48 hours if you stay here and help us and i will tell you everything you need to know..."

I smell rubbish... he never said anything to him after he returned from alkali lake... until stryker told him himself towards the end.

 

[danoyse]

Im going to have to side with Danoyse on this. One idea doesnt mean the other isnt possible. Weve got 2 ideas here: liberty island causing SOMETHING to occur. What we werent told completely. In x3, this is fleshed out. What did it trigger? The repressed side of jean that xavier held back for her own good, at least that was the intention.

The second i saw this complaint im just amazed at how folks can reach for problems with x3... i think its more like choosing to criticize.

Thank you. There was no specific explanation of what was happening in the first two movies, so it was totally open for whatever they did in X3. It strayed from the comics, so people say the continuity was off...but it's all in the first 2 movies and manages to continue logically in the 3rd.

And it wasn't even a complete new personality change for Xavier. He gave Logan information about his past at the end of X1, but when he wanted more in X2 he told him there was nothing more he could find.

But later in X2, Magneto tells him, "And you really think taking in the Wolverine will make up with your failure with Stryker's son?". Which indicates that Xavier knew who Wolverine was before he arrived at the mansion in X1.

The conversation continues..."You haven't told him about his past." Xavier says "I put him on the path. Logan's mind is still fragile." Magneto questions whether he's more worried about "losing one of his precious X-Men."

It all fits. How would Xavier admitting he put psychic blocks to lock away the Phoenix--and not tell Jean or anyone else about it any different from what he'd been doing to Logan in the first two movies? It wasn't that he was afraid Logan would have an emotional meltdown at the news...he was afraid of the ramifications of the wrong side of Wolverine's temper when he did.

Even the relationship with Magneto is the same--Magneto gave him a hard time about being too careful with Wolverine in X2, and gave him a hard time about being too careful with Jean in X3.

Jean says it right there in the infirmary scene..."You think he's not in your head too?"

 

[XCharlieX]

But later in X2, Magneto tells him, "And you really think taking in the Wolverine will make up with your failure with Stryker's son?". Which indicates that Xavier knew who Wolverine was before he arrived at the mansion in X1.

I always thought Magneto knew more about stryker than Xavier. After all, he says "experimentation on mutants is not unheard of but I've never seen anything like this before". But Magneto cut straight to the chase in x2 at the campfire scene, telling him about his adamantium. I think xavier knew by reading wolverines mind more than anything, or maybe after a while he solved it in his head. Because how would that all play out in x1 though... Magneto was after Rogue for his machine, and she comes into contact with wolverine by chance and they all get rescued by xavier who knew who both of them were hmmm.

Your point is perfectly intact though

 

[danoyse]

I always thought Magneto knew more about stryker than Xavier. After all, he says "experimentation on mutants is not unheard of but I've never seen anything like this before". But Magneto cut straight to the chase in x2 at the campfire scene, telling him about his adamantium. I think xavier knew by reading wolverines mind more than anything, or maybe after a while he solved it in his head. Because how would that all play out in x1 though... Magneto was after Rogue for his machine, and she comes into contact with wolverine by chance and they all get rescued by xavier who knew who both of them were hmmm.

Well, Xavier had Stryker's son as a student. He mentions that Stryker thought he could cure him, and in their first scene together, they definitely knew each other ("You wanted me to cure your son, but mutation is not a disease." "You're lying!"). And Magneto says in that line about Wolverine, that he was trying to make up with his "failure" with Stryker's son.

What exactly was his failure? He couldn't cure him, and certainly didn't try...so he couldn't have failed at that. But Jason wasn't just psychic, he was psychotic as well. Maybe he wasn't able to help him control that. Stryker just considered that as part of Jason's mutation and never forgave Xavier for not being able to get rid of it.

About him never having seen anything like Wolverine's adamantium before...it could be a few things. Stryker told Wolverine if he only knew about "the work we did together." Xavier could have known more about that then the full details about the adamantium. Or it may have just been the first time he'd seen what exactly had been done to him and didn't realize until then how extensive it was.

Magneto knew a lot too--from his reaction when he saw Wolverine's name on the dog tags Sabertooth had taken, and when they met on the train and he said "That remarkable metal doesn't run through your entire body, does it?" when he obviously knew it did. Then he revealed so much in X2, it was obvious he knows possibly as much about Wolverine's past as the Professor does.

 

[XCharlieX]

Its all very confusing... i wish they talked about this on the dvd heh.

Its just that coincidence doesnt sit well with me. They were after Rogue and she brings with her wolverine, with ties that theyre blatantly familiar with...

Or perhaps being a mutant, wolverine was the standout pit fighter that everyone wanted to go to Laughlin city to see, in which case not too coincidental that she would hitch a ride from a trucker who wanted to go see him.

 

[Loganbabe]

Jean says it right there in the infirmary scene..."You think he's not in your head too?"

Exactly, it makes you wonder...
Xavier and Logan´s relantionship was always a bit intruiguing. We don´t know if Xavier was hiding something from Logan, maybe the Professor wasn´t really aware Stryker had done experiments with mutants. He seemed honestly surprised when he found out about Logan´s skeleton.
But...his conversation with Erik about Logan in X2 was, definitely, strange. As was his over-the-top reaction when Logan was questioning him about Jean: "I don´t have to explain myself, least of all to you." I was like "Wow, suddenly Xavier is so self-righteous, what´s going on inside that bald head of his?" I really would like to see it a little bit more developed. If Xavier didn´t consider Logan a part of his "family" or one of his trusted friends, then it´s really sad, because Logan´s reaction when Xavier died showed he had great deal of appreciation and respect for the Prof.

 

[XCharlieX]

But...his conversation with Erik about Logan in X2 was, definitely, strange. As was his over-the-top reaction when Logan was questioning him about Jean: "I don´t have to explain myself, least of all to you." I was like "Wow, suddenly Xavier is so self-righteous, what´s going on inside that bald head of his?" I really would like to see it a little bit more developed. If Xavier didn´t consider Logan a part of his "family" or one of his trusted friends, then it´s really sad, because Logan´s reaction when Xavier died showed he had great deal of appreciation and respect for the Prof.

I dont think Xavier disrespected Wolverine, but he knows he thought much diferently than him when it came to matters of "containment" heh. I do feel Xavier wouldve in some fashion saw wolverine as commonplace around there though, although in and out. Logans all about "free the beast" while xavier i think sees this as a mindset magneto would have, so his reaction i think while surprising, made sense. It was the same at Jeans house. He snapped back at Erik "stop it!"

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Exactly, it makes you wonder...
Xavier and Logan´s relantionship was always a bit intruiguing. We don´t know if Xavier was hiding something from Logan, maybe the Professor wasn´t really aware Stryker had done experiments with mutants. He seemed honestly surprised when he found out about Logan´s skeleton.
But...his conversation with Erik about Logan in X2 was, definitely, strange. As was his over-the-top reaction when Logan was questioning him about Jean: "I don´t have to explain myself, least of all to you." I was like "Wow, suddenly Xavier is so self-righteous, what´s going on inside that bald head of his?" I really would like to see it a little bit more developed. If Xavier didn´t consider Logan a part of his "family" or one of his trusted friends, then it´s really sad, because Logan´s reaction when Xavier died showed he had great deal of appreciation and respect for the Prof.

Haha, well how long had he known the professor? He barely spoke to the man in X1, barely spoke to him in X2, and all of a sudden he just breaks down in front of a wheelchair like he's known him his entire life?

You're reaching here Logan babe and you're just manipulating facts in order to make sure they favor Logan.

 

[XCharlieX]

Haha, well how long had he known the professor? He barely spoke to the man in X1, barely spoke to him in X2, and all of a sudden he just breaks down in front of a wheelchair like he's known him his entire life?

In the time logan spent with the team and such, it was apparent ("he seems to legitimately want to help you and thats a rare thing, for people like us"/"ill take my chances with them") that wolverine started to realize the importance of xavier. Xavier was basically the father figure for all mutantkind and wolverine became used to this by x3 the most seems to me.

So you dont need long time, but rather quality time i think. Time enough to see what Xavier and his dreams are about.

Also, it is noticeable how comfortable wolverine is around the mansion in x3. In x2 he was still getting a feel for it, invited into cerebro, wondering whos up in the middle of the night etc.

 

[ntcrawler]

Haha, well how long had he known the professor? He barely spoke to the man in X1, barely spoke to him in X2, and all of a sudden he just breaks down in front of a wheelchair like he's known him his entire life?

Doesn't it make you wonder... that that was supposed to be another scene meant for CYCLOPS??? Wouldn't seeing Scott break down in front of his father-figure's wheelchair make more sense and be more appropriate?

If anything, Storm should have been the one grieving and Wolverine embracing and comforting her. At least that would make more sense character-wise and be more appropriate.

 

[XCharlieX]

Doesn't it make you wonder... that that was supposed to be another scene meant for CYCLOPS??? Wouldn't seeing Scott break down in front of his father-figure's wheelchair make more sense and be more appropriate?

Well, while i wouldnt mind more development of scott before he went to alkali lake, wolverine was the one they needed to evolve through the 3 films from apathetic, to caring as a team member. His arch was the stubborn guy who comes around and values the team and the professors goals by x3. Xaviers goals hit him strong when he died, and then at the end teamwork was the only thing they had left for xaviers dream.

 

[XCharlieX]

Might I add, an all out mission to capture the schools inhabitants i think was a huge step in wolverine being accustomed to the school and getting to realize the importance further of Xaviers dream. By 3 theyve been through a lot together, so this is why wolverine tries to warm up to even scott as if theyre old acquaintances.

 

[BMM]

Thank you. There was no specific explanation of what was happening in the first two movies, so it was totally open for whatever they did in X3. It strayed from the comics, so people say the continuity was off...but it's all in the first 2 movies and manages to continue logically in the 3rd.

And it wasn't even a complete new personality change for Xavier. He gave Logan information about his past at the end of X1, but when he wanted more in X2 he told him there was nothing more he could find.

But later in X2, Magneto tells him, "And you really think taking in the Wolverine will make up with your failure with Stryker's son?". Which indicates that Xavier knew who Wolverine was before he arrived at the mansion in X1.

The conversation continues..."You haven't told him about his past." Xavier says "I put him on the path. Logan's mind is still fragile." Magneto questions whether he's more worried about "losing one of his precious X-Men."

It all fits. How would Xavier admitting he put psychic blocks to lock away the Phoenix--and not tell Jean or anyone else about it any different from what he'd been doing to Logan in the first two movies? It wasn't that he was afraid Logan would have an emotional meltdown at the news...he was afraid of the ramifications of the wrong side of Wolverine's temper when he did.

Even the relationship with Magneto is the same--Magneto gave him a hard time about being too careful with Wolverine in X2, and gave him a hard time about being too careful with Jean in X3.

Jean says it right there in the infirmary scene..."You think he's not in your head too?"

Danoyse, this may not strictly be in response to your above post. I quoted it, but after typing, I'm not sure how much of it applies. I guess it is more of a response to some of the things that I have been reading over the past of couple of pages. I don't want you to think that I am trying to put words into your mouth.




I don't find the two situations regarding Jean Grey and Wolverine to be the same, which contributes to the reasons I do find Xavier to be out of character in The Last Stand. Xavier’s actions and motivations regarding Jean Grey are contrived, manipulative, pre-conceived and in the end, hurtful. This is not the case for Wolverine. Wolverine’s amnesia is not a result of Xavier’s actions. Likewise, it is not Xavier’s responsibility to simply solve Wolverine’s problems, nor does he. This a personal task suited for Wolverine and Wolverine alone. A psychiatrist/psychologist may know or realize the cause of a patient’s trauma, and although the psychologist may guide and help his patient come to a resolution, it is important that the patient come to his own resolution (a la a breakthrough). This is what Xavier is doing for Wolverine, and he is right in doing so. On a side note, I don’t believe Magneto is indicating that Xavier knew who Wolverine was before X-Men. I think Magneto is simply distorting what he believes are Xavier’s past failures (Jason) in an attempt to be hurtful.

I don’t find Xavier to be manipulating Wolverine in an effort to keep him as a member of the team. If he was, I don’t believe he would have let Wolverine go so easily at the end of X-Men. Also, I don’t find Magneto and Xavier’s speech in the prison in X2 to be a reflection of Xavier’s character. Rather, I find it to be a reflection of Magneto’s. Xavier states “Logan’s mind is still fragile” (and indeed it is) to which Magneto retorts, “Is it? Or are you afraid of losing one of your precious X-Men?” Magneto’s line is cowardly. It is an attempt to distract Xavier from the true matter at hand—Magneto has betrayed Xavier and does not want to admit it. Xavier is visibly hurt by Magneto’s fallacious insult, because despite how misguided Magneto’s ideals may be, Xavier considers him a friend, and does not believe Eric would stoop so low so as to pervert the sincerity of Xavier’s life long motivations simply for the means of a quick insult. This is what I gather from the disappointed look on Xavier’s face . . . but this look is soon replaced with one of shock when he realizes what Magneto is actually trying to cover up.

Furthermore, I find that the same prison conversation speaks volumes regarding Xavier’s character. In reference to Stryker’s son, Xavier states, “I wasn’t able to help him. At least not in the way his father wanted.” This notion regarding Xavier’s resolve is further displayed later in X2. Xavier rebukes Stryker, stating, “William, you wanted me to cure your son, but mutation is not a disease.” Moreover, Stryker notes that Xavier was more afraid of Jason than he was. Despite this fear, Xavier still refused to give Jason and his father an easy way out. Xavier’s convictions are strong. I find these examples to be especially relevant concerning Xavier’s unwavering principles, which is why I find his characterization in The Last Stand to be unsound.

I don’t find Xavier’s actions in The Last Stand to follow previous logic nor do I find it matches his previous characterization. As is noted in the above conversation, Xavier’s actions regarding Jean Grey completely conflict with the convictions of his prior incarnations. In The Last Stand, Xavier is deceitful and manipulative. He fears Jean, and in an attempt to quell her power, he fragments her mind, which ultimately ruins both of their lives (not to mention puts a serious dent in Xavier’s honesty and trustworthiness thereby questioning the sincerity of his motivations regarding his dream—and that kind of deviation is a problem). To make matters worse, he continues to subversively manipulate Jean throughout the rest of her life. Perhaps I would find this newly revealed insight better if I didn’t think it conflicted with everything established in X-Men and X2, particularly his measures concerning Jason and Wolverine.

I think The Last Stand would like to think itself clever by trying to imbue the situation with a sense of irony, but instead I find it to be the result of sloppy storytelling in an attempt to side-step an otherwise potentially difficult explanation of the Phoenix (or one that didn’t fit the pre-ordained parameters of the story). Xavier’s revelations are quick blurbs in the movie and they don’t seem to fit well to me. I could do my best to spin the scenes in an attempt at making the movies coalesce, but I don’t find them to fit the honesty or tone of the characterizations in the previous installments. The genuineness of Xavier’s principles as shared with Magneto in scenes such as those previously mentioned don’t mesh well with the explanations given in The Last Stand. Xavier’s beliefs regarding Jason/Wolverine and Jean are polar opposites to me, and I don’t find that one lends itself to the other.

 

[XCharlieX]

I don't find the two situations regarding Jean Grey and Wolverine to be the same, which contributes to the reasons I do find Xavier to be out of character in The Last Stand.

Figures. Thats fine, but there are those who see how the path they took came from the other films and it makes much sense to others, and always when you make another addition to a franchise (especially from another guy) and try to bring somethign new, some folks will refuse to get it.

I just find the things that the writers have caught onto in x3 to be pretty slick and smart, its just the ending result that felt a bit zip filed for my tastes.

 

[Loganbabe]

You're reaching here Logan babe and you're just manipulating facts in order to make sure they favor Logan.

Don´t be ridiculous, I was having a conversation here, not "manipulating facts".
But it´s becoming impossible to have a nice discussion or simply a conversation without the thread being assaulted by your paranoid antics and obnoxious observations.

 

[XCharlieX]

I think there is a point in a persons mind where he must accept that the pilot of the franchise is a new person, otherwise the ideas will sound like nonsense even if they make sense when you see Singers as the ones set in stone, and then "the new one" over there. Xavier being questionable in this way would be much easier to accept if the writers were given the full benefit of a doubt imo.

If x3 didnt make sense character wise with the others, id say something, but i really understood how they were developing the story and interpreting it in innovative ways... they were unexpected turns but they fit smoothly imo.

 

[BMM]

Figures. Thats fine, but there are those who see how the path they took came from the other films and it makes much sense to others, and always when you make another addition to a franchise (especially from another guy) and try to bring somethign new, some folks will refuse to get it.

I just find the things that the writers have caught onto in x3 to be pretty slick and smart, its just the ending result that felt a bit zip filed for my tastes.

It's not that I don't get it or that I refuse to get it. I see the path that they are trying to take. I just don't think it necessarily adds up as well as the writers would have liked it to, which is why I find it somewhat out of character.

 

[XCharlieX]

It's not that I don't get it or that I refuse to get it. I see the path that they are trying to take. I just don't think it necessarily adds up as well as the writers would have liked it to, which is why I find it somewhat out of character.

Well if you dont like that explanation tell me.. whats a prep school run By the ethically perfect charles xavier doing with a jet, an underground training area.. and whats more.. forming a task team that breaks the law every night by taking the law into their own hands? heh...

Why did he create the x men? becaus ehumanities days could be over without them. Why did he give jean mental blocks? because humanities days could be over without them lol

Xavier was ethically challenged as far as im concerned, but its always for the greater good. Phoenix was no different in my eyes, so those would be my opinions on that pov.

 

[ntcrawler]

I don't find the two situations regarding Jean Grey and Wolverine to be the same, which contributes to the reasons I do find Xavier to be out of character in The Last Stand. Xavier’s actions and motivations regarding Jean Grey are contrived, manipulative, pre-conceived and in the end, hurtful. This is not the case for Wolverine. Wolverine’s amnesia is not a result of Xavier’s actions. Likewise, it is not Xavier’s responsibility to simply solve Wolverine’s problems, nor does he. This a personal task suited for Wolverine and Wolverine alone.

That's how I feel as well. The approach towards Jean was out of character and completely without warning. As for Wolverine, Xavier does seem to kno more than he's willing to allude, but I got the impression that he was holding back for the right reasons. Seeing Wolverine in pain and understanding that the guy is basically good, it would be fairly traumatic to reveal to the guy how dark his past must have truly been. Stryker gave that impression as well, when he pointed out to Wolverine that 'You always were a monster, I just gave you claws", at the end of which Logan decided he'd rather NOT know about his past, but start with a clean sheet of paper, being among people he knew he could trust, because they were truly the good guys and didn't have anything sinister hidden up their sleeve. Under those circumstances, Xavier did in fact do what was best for Logan and held back things he knew would be painful and that Logan would rather not know.

Xavier states “Logan’s mind is still fragile” (and indeed it is) to which Magneto retorts, “Is it? Or are you afraid of losing one of your precious X-Men?”

And herein lies the difference, as evidenced from their earliest days together even when they looked to bring in Jean. Magneto's approach was more along the lines of acquiing new troops for his cause, whereas Xavier's was about bringing people in to help them, give them a chance at a better life and ultimately let them decide what to do with their lives.

Furthermore, I find that the same prison conversation speaks volumes regarding Xavier’s character. In reference to Stryker’s son, Xavier states, “I wasn’t able to help him. At least not in the way his father wanted.” This notion regarding Xavier’s resolve is further displayed later in X2. Xavier rebukes Stryker, stating, “William, you wanted me to cure your son, but mutation is not a disease.”

And this is why I have a problem with the way things are presented in X3. Xavier and his allies believe that mutation is not a disease, just like being black or asian is not a disease either, but a part of who you are. Just like any other talent, it is something that should be explored, embraced, learned to control, coped with and perhaps used to benefit others. Just like losing weight, there isn't supposed to be an easy way out, a magic pill or "cure" to replace hard work, such as dieting and exercise with weight loss. To suddenly introduce a Cure in X3 and make it sound like Xavier's institute will be made completely obsolete and pointless just weakens the whole concept. That's why I prefer to show that the Cure either is not permanent, or ultimately has side effects which can be even more of a handicapped or frightening than the mutations themselves.

Moreover, Stryker notes that Xavier was more afraid of Jason than he was. Despite this fear, Xavier still refused to give Jason and his father an easy way out. Xavier’s convictions are strong. I find these examples to be especially relevant concerning Xavier’s unwavering principles, which is why I find his characterization in The Last Stand to be unsound.

Exactly. He is shown as being panicky and having convictions which seem to waver when certain other characters are concerned, reactin more out of panic instead of the experience and calm that comes from years of wisdom and experience, both as a teacher and as a father figure to his closest and oldest pupils. His family.

I don’t find Xavier’s actions in The Last Stand to follow previous logic nor do I find it matches his previous characterization. As is noted in the above conversation, Xavier’s actions regarding Jean Grey completely conflict with the convictions of his prior incarnations. In The Last Stand, Xavier is deceitful and manipulative. He fears Jean, and in an attempt to quell her power, he fragments her mind, which ultimately ruins both of their lives

It goes worse than that. He apparently understands the danger, but does not communicate it properly. He says cryptics things like "you haev no idea" instead of giving anything specific, such as pointing out just HOW dangerous Jean is. As if NO ONE can truly appreciate it or have the brains to comprehend it. In addition, he should understand what can trigger that danger and ultimately what can be done to prevent it (keeping Jean calm, giving her the feeling of comfort and safety, keeping her mind focued and avoiding fear and anxiety, etc), but instead does not convey any of this information nor does he use it himself. His approach seems panicky and he proceeds to essentially smother Jean, corner her like a frightened animal and attempt to throw a net on her and essentially mentally rape her. All of which makes her erupt and the situation blows up.

the rest of her life. Perhaps I would find this newly revealed insight better if I didn’t think it conflicted with everything established in the X-Men and X2, particularly his measures concerning Jason and Wolverine.

A darker, flawed side could work if we had hints of it before. To show him as a passionate father figure and all of a sudden toss in this dark side, definitely does not work. In fact, it's even more preposterous when you consider previous run-ins with Jean which point away from this idea in the first place.

I think The Last Stand would like to think itself clever by trying to imbue the situation with a sense of irony, but instead I find it to be the result of sloppy storytelling in an attempt to side-step an otherwise potentially difficult explanation of the Phoenix (or one that didn’t fit the parameters of the pre-ordained story).

Why couldn't the explanation instead just focus on Jean suffering a form of insanity or dimentia due to the traumatic events of what happened to her in the first place? The panic and terror of the moments of her death as the waters crashed around her, combined with her being in a state of constant horror between awake and asleep for 8 months would surely do a number on her mental health. Toss in a bit of paranoia as she feels everyone is out to get her, combined with powers far stronger than she ever had before directly coupled with her (now unstable) emtions similar to Storm's and you would essentially have the same things, but in a more believable and simpler to digest context.

Xavier’s beliefs regarding Jason and Jean are polar opposites to me, and I don’t find that one lends itself to the other.

I don't either. His believe was that all mutants can be taught to control their powers and learn to cope, Jean being no exception. With jason it was different because Stryker wanted a complete cure which there was no way that Xavier could offer. But with Jean, she not only could have learned to cope had he used a less manipulative approach and instead could have been shown as not only his greatest student but his greatest success and a model for all other students at the institute. A concept which alot of other authors have in fact picked up. Like this little snipped from "Thicker than Blood" which I felt shows this relationship beautifully:


“You think I need more than just to learn control, don’t you?” she bravely asked.
The professor reluctantly nodded his head. “I think I may have over estimated your ability to handle this surge, yes,” he concurred.
She couldn’t stop the tears from falling. “I told you I couldn’t do this. I knew I wouldn’t be strong enough,” she cried.
He motioned her toward him and Jean easily complied. She laid her head down in his lap the way she’d done many times as a child. “This is not a failure on your part, Jean,” Xavier ran a hand soothingly along her back.
“Sometimes, I just wish…”
“What, Jean? What do you wish?”
“What every Mutant wishes at some point in their life, to be normal.” Jean closed her eyes again in the safety of Xavier’s embrace. “And sometimes, I wish it would have been me who died that day, instead of Annie. Then I never would have felt her die. I never would have spent a year locked in that psyche ward. I never would have lived to see a day where I might hurt the people I love.”
“And you never would have become one of the world’s finest geneticists. A teenaged Ororo never would have been coaxed out of her shell if not for your friendship. Scott never would have opened up his heart if not for your love. And I never would have had the privilege to teach and guide one of the kindest, gentlest souls I have even known.”
“When you say it, it doesn’t sound so bad.”
“It is never as bad as you think, Jean. Everything happens for a reason,” Xavier relayed his belief.
“And what is the reason behind my current predicament?” she asked wearily.
“I’m afraid I don’t know that answer yet,” he honestly replied. “But we’ll find it. I promise.”
They sat in silence as Xavier comforted the woman he loved like a daughter. He sheltered her mind the best he could, hoping to at least give her a few moments of peace.


Now doesn't that convey the concepts of father/daughter, teacher/pupil, and coping, tolerance, and control rather nicely?

 

[Loganbabe]

The genuineness of Xavier’s principles as shared with Magneto in scenes such as those previously mentioned don’t mesh well with the explanations given in The Last Stand. Xavier’s beliefs regarding Jason/Wolverine and Jean are polar opposites to me, and I don’t find that one lends itself to the other.

Fair enough. Maybe Xavier ended up being a different character in X3, colder, manipulative. But I also thought it was interesting they showed that Xavier´s intentions were good, but maybe not his methods. It wasn´t that he was a creepy, evil person, but that he wasn´t so perfect that he couldn´t do creepy, manipulative things with his powers. So he was just human, flawed, but his "dream" also produced good things, like the school, a real shelter for rejected young boys and girls. So, all in all, I think he died more as a good guy than an evil bastard. But I understand if some people felt a bit miffed by X3´s Xavier.

 

[XCharlieX]

lol It was a twist that some didnt care for.... xavier to many is this cartoon character of can do no wrong so this is clearly not going over well. I found this revelation to be quite a realistic turn for the character, it takes nothing away from him really, just that the guy sometimes gets tripped up with his methods.

I state once again xavier has made a team to work above the law. If one just sat back and said "what flaws would x have?" that would be the answer imo.. bravo writers.

 

[BMM]

Well if you dont like that explanation tell me.. whats a prep school run By the ethically perfect charles xavier doing with a jet, an underground training area.. and whats more.. forming a task team that breaks the law every night by taking the law into their own hands? heh...

Why did he create the x men? becaus ehumanities days could be over without them. Why did he give jean mental blocks? because humanities days could be over without them lol

Xavier was ethically challenged as far as im concerned, but its always for the greater good. Phoenix was no different in my eyes, so those would be my opinions on that pov.

Well, I don't find the X-Men to simply be breaking laws. A majority of the time they are reacting to an external threat that is happening to them, which is perhaps why they are hated, feared, and most of all, misunderstood.

In so far as Jean is concerned, I can't answer that. Upon first meeting her, Xavier questions Jean "will you control your power, or will you let it control you?" But it seems he goes on to negate her choice by fragmenting her mind anyway. I couldn't tell you if humanity's days would have been numbered, because, aside from lifting cars, there was never any indication that Jean Grey was overly dangerous or evil . . . at least not any moreso than Cyclops, Storm, or Xavier himself . . . all of which are just as capable of taking out humanity left and right. It's a somewhat open ended portion of the Phoenix explanation.