Sons of Anarchy - Part 1

[James]

Do you realize what happens to a person who relapses on heroine? She will most likely fall harder than she did the first time she was hooked. Everyday since going clean multiple times a day she will have been fighting the addiction. It never goes away. It is a constant battle. And Jax just fed that addiction. She is most likely going to relapse hard and terribly. Jax pretty much undid all her progress and potentially killed her anyways. All because he couldnt see how far he has fallen. Because he thinks "I got this." If his children were truly more important to him he would burn that club to the ground before he would let it jeopardize his children. Instead he has chosen the club. Wendy was in the right and Jax was far from it. Yes Jax has done crooked **** and killed people but it has been gang and club related. This was far outside that circle. This was damning.

Ahh, so murder is bad but it was all in the name of the club which doesn't make it as bad as stuff he does for his family?

Murder is murder, club or no club. Just because he wears a gang patch at the time doesn't some how make the murder any less morally wrong than if he did it for some other reason. It seems like this enormous double standard, he's a bad guy "but" this reason or that reason. But wait, now he's completely damned because he did this other bad thing for a different reason outside of the usual reasons that make it more acceptable.

What Jax did to Wendy was horrible but saying that it's the act that damns him is silly considering all the equally as terrible and arguably worse things he's done before. Don't get me wrong, I am by no means supporting what he did, however it doesn't change my view on the character either. He's a bad guy, he did a bad thing, it's no surprise.

 

[Visceral]

Jax is a bad guy who wants to be good, while at the same time has no idea how to quell his thirst for vengeance.

I don't the act damns him at all but it doesn't bode well for his character escaping the mess of a world he exists in.

 

[Marvolo]

Ahh, so murder is bad but it was all in the name of the club which doesn't make it as bad as stuff he does for his family?

Murder is murder, club or no club. Just because he wears a gang patch at the time doesn't some how make the murder any less morally wrong than if he did it for some other reason. It seems like this enormous double standard, he's a bad guy "but" this reason or that reason. But wait, now he's completely damned because he did this other bad thing for a different reason outside of the usual reasons that make it more acceptable.

What Jax did to Wendy was horrible but saying that it's the act that damns him is silly considering all the equally as terrible and arguably worse things he's done before. Don't get me wrong, I am by no means supporting what he did, however it doesn't change my view on the character either. He's a bad guy, he did a bad thing, it's no surprise.

Here is the difference,

Jax murdered gang members and people who chose this life. They chose to put themselves in harms way. They chose to do business with bad people. They were bad just like Jax and the rest of the MCs. They were already on a path in life that they chose and had accepted the possibility that they might die in that life. I have no sympathy for them. Wendy was clean, Wendy was out, Wendy was making a life for herself, and Wendy was trying to get her child out of that dangerous life. That is why what Jax did to her is so much worse than murdering a gangbanger who was going that route to begin with. Wendy was outside of that. She left it behind. She was a civillian. She was innocent in this BS. She was just looking out for her child. If you cant see the difference I really cant help you.

Let me give you a real life example,
Mexican drug cartel murders one of its own or a one of a competing cartel it is to be expected and i dont really care one way or the other. Its business as usual.

Mexican Cartel kidnaps and forces heroin addiction onto an innocent girl for whatever reason that I would have a problem with.

There is a big difference.

 

[James]

Here is the difference,

Jax murdered gang members and people who chose this life. They chose to put themselves in harms way. They chose to do business with bad people. They were bad just like Jax and the rest of the MCs. They were already on a path in life that they chose and had accepted the possibility that they might die in that life. Wendy was clean, Wendy was out, Wendy was making a life for herself, and Wendy was trying to get her child out of that dangerous life. That is why what Jax did is to her is so much worse than murdering a gangbanger who was going that route to begin with. Its like the difference between a soldier and a civillian. These gangmembers are soldiers in their own war. They volunteered and chose that danger and risk. Wendy was outside of that. She left it behind. She was a civillian. She was innocent in this BS. Just like the Sherrif's wife. If you cant see the difference I really cant help you.

Good thing I'm not in need of any help. I'm playing devil's advocate, as it were, not attempting to justify what Jax did.

I see how you're making the distinction, and it certainly makes sense depending on your outlook. That is what it comes down to though, not facts -personal moral perspective. Was it okay for Jax to kill the prison guard who set up Opie's beating? The guard didn't actually perform the act. Is murder okay depending on who the victim is, or is murder just murder? I do understand where you're coming from. From a purely black and white moral standpoint however, it's a total double standard.

It's also interesting and important to note, that this episode made Wendy into a much more sympathetic character than she had been previously. That goes a long way to shifting audience perspective, I have the feeling were supposed to hate Jax at the moment.

 

[Marvolo]

Good thing I'm not in need of any help. I'm playing devil's advocate, as it were, not attempting to justify what Jax did.

I see how you're making the distinction, and it certainly makes sense depending on your outlook. That is what it comes down to though, not facts -personal moral perspective. Was it okay for Jax to kill the prison guard who set up Opie's beating? The guard didn't actually perform the act. Is murder okay depending on who the victim is, or is murder just murder? I do understand where you're coming from. From a purely black and white moral standpoint however, it's a total double standard.

It's also interesting and important to note, that this episode made Wendy into a much more sympathetic character than she had been previously. That goes a long way to shifting audience perspective, I have the feeling were supposed to hate Jax at the moment.

I dont deal in black and white morals because you are right it is double standards and is contrary to the world we inhabit. I am opposed to murder but if in a situation where i could kill for instance someone like Osama Bin Laden I would put one in his head and walk away with a clear conscious. I guess you could say im a pragmatist. I think that is the right word.

And you are right we are meant to hate jax atm. To be clear, i dont think any of these characters are good people. They are all morally questionable and various degrees of crap. But for me as long as they keep their violence directed at other bad people who choose violence I can put up with it. Attacking the innocent is a bit in my no fly zone. Its harder for me to root for them and forgive them. I havent liked Jax all season and this really isnt helping his case, and I feel so ****ing bad for Wendy.

 

[James]

I dont deal in black and white morals because you are right it is double standards and is contrary to the world we inhabit. I am opposed to murder but if in a situation where i could kill for instance someone like Osama Bin Laden I would put one in his head and walk away with a clear conscious. I guess you could say im a pragmatist. I think that is the right word.

It sounds like you and I are on the same page. In my personal view, there are absolutely exceptions as to who deserves what in the world. Regarding Jax, I was just illustrating the irony of we the audience suddenly turning against him, given all the heinous stuff he's already done.

I liken it to characters like Hannibal Lecter, they are complete monsters who deserve to die -but the audience will root for them because we're never shown the victims, or if we are it's only when they're doing something irritating or wrong. Our support of bad guys wavers depending entirely on what we're shown. I like Happy, he's my favorite character, but if he kills a puppy in next weeks episode I'm going to want his fate to be horrible.

If we hadn't seen what Jax did to Wendy and only heard about it, would we dislike him as much as we do now? Or more accurately to fit my point, if Wendy had been shown as a total ***** the entire show instead of sympathetic, would we now be rooting for Jax?

I don't agree with what he did, or even his way of life, it certainly makes for good discussion though

EDIT: I forgot Katey Sagal had already appeared previously in The Shield.

 

[Marvolo]

It sounds like you and I are on the same page. In my personal view, there are absolutely exceptions as to who deserves what in the world. Regarding Jax, I was just illustrating the irony of we the audience suddenly turning against him, given all the heinous stuff he's already done.

I liken it to characters like Hannibal Lecter, they are complete monsters who deserve to die -but the audience will root for them because we're never shown the victims, or if we are it's only when they're doing something irritating or wrong. Our support of bad guys wavers depending entirely on what we're shown. I like Happy, he's my favorite character, but if he kills a puppy in next weeks episode I'm going to want his fate to be horrible.

If we hadn't seen what Jax did to Wendy and only heard about it, would we dislike him as much as we do now? Or more accurately to fit my point, if Wendy had been shown as a total ***** the entire show instead of sympathetic, would we now be rooting for Jax?

I don't agree with what he did, or even his way of life, it certainly makes for good discussion though

EDIT: I forgot Katey Sagal had already appeared previously in The Shield.

We are on the same page. And i agree its these broken characters and their questionable decisions and actions that makes for great discussion and I find that is good television.

Was it just me or did anyone else notice the look in Jax's eyes after the stuck Wendy with the needle? I havent really seen that particular one before. It was scary. Like im not sure what this guy will do anymore scary. Im actually fearing for Tara. Her not telling him she is taking the job and him finding out some other way. This could get ugly.

 

[georgec]

Jax wasn't protecting his kid. He was taking out his frustration with Clay evading Mr. Mayhem on Wendy, along with his frustration and realizing how right Wendy is about the nasty lives he and Tara lead. Above all he was protecting himself.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Do you realize what happens to a person who relapses on heroine? She will most likely fall harder than she did the first time she was hooked. Everyday since going clean multiple times a day she will have been fighting the addiction. It never goes away. It is a constant battle. And Jax just fed that addiction. She is most likely going to relapse hard and terribly. Jax pretty much undid all her progress and potentially killed her anyways. All because he couldnt see how far he has fallen. Because he thinks "I got this." If his children were truly more important to him he would burn that club to the ground before he would let it jeopardize his children. Instead he has chosen the club. Wendy was in the right and Jax was far from it. Yes Jax has done crooked **** and killed people but it has been gang and club related. This was far outside that circle. This was damning.

He is even doing this to Tara. Last season it was all about getting out and Tara and the children being safe. Now Tara gets the job offer and what does he say, "Not now." These second chances are rare and yet he passes it off like the club is more important. Jax is losing sight of what he wanted because he has tasted power and in some way he admires the power Pope has. Jax is heading down a dark road.

The scary thing is and I cant believe I am saying this, but the writers are setting Jax up to be worse than Clay. I think that may have been their plan all along.

Jax said it all with one line...

"the gavel corrupts"...

 

[Maximus One]

Meeting Mr Mayhem is just a euphemism for killing him right?

 

[Nemi]

Meeting Mr Mayhem is just a euphemism for killing him right?

Yes. I don't know why they use that specifically though.

 

[Christopher Nolan]

the development of jax is not really a suprise. i mean from the beginning of the show it was clear that this "innocent" guy will somehow turn "evil" and the best way to do that, is to put him as the club president...give him his medicin...i dont know how many seasons sons of anarchy will have, but we have seen the beginning of jax, the rise of jax and in the end we will see the fall of jax...happy ending? i dont know...does he deserves it? he aint that cruel like walter white, but he's heading the same way down..

 

[James]

If The Shield is anything to go by I won't expect any cheery endings for SOA. I wouldn't mind seeing Unser somehow coming out on top, the rest can burn.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Yes. I don't know why they use that specifically though.

probably a smart move to use the Mayhem reference and never actually use the "kill'' or "murder" words or anything similar as a precaution against any possible law-enforcement surveillance...

 

[Nemi]

If The Shield is anything to go by I won't expect any cheery endings for SOA. I wouldn't mind seeing Unser somehow coming out on top, the rest can burn.

I fully expect that all of the characters will either be killed or have their lives completely destroyed.

 

[Sawyer]

Sutter's referred to Hamlet as something he's drawn from with SOA. Ain't no one getting out of this thing unscathed.

 

[georgec]

Series finale will be Chuckie killing everyone and taking all the money.

As he walks away, he drops the gloves from his hands in [blackout]Keyser Soze[/blackout] fashion.

 

[CrypticOne]

SOA will end like The Shield did. Wasn't Sutter a writer for that show, too?

 

[Sawyer]

Yeah. Glen Mazarra too.

 

[James]

Series finale will be Chuckie killing everyone and taking all the money.

As he walks away, he drops the gloves from his hands in [blackout]Keyser Soze[/blackout] fashion.

I accept that.

 

[Evelisse]

Series finale will be Chuckie killing everyone and taking all the money.

As he walks away, he drops the gloves from his hands in [blackout]Keyser Soze[/blackout] fashion.

Can his gloves have thumbknives?

 

[CrypticOne]

Do people think Jax is really a good guy to begin with though? SOA is a outlaw biker gang. I'm glad Sutter is taking Jax into this territory of being a "bad" person. That is why I really don't like Juice and wonder how they allowed him into the club. He's a crybaby to me and they either need to decide to kill him off or do something with him. Maybe he is the one that kills Pope? I think that would be cool to see.

 

[James]

Do people think Jax is really a good guy to begin with though? SOA is a outlaw biker gang. I'm glad Sutter is taking Jax into this territory of being a "bad" person. That is why I really don't like Juice and wonder how they allowed him into the club. He's a crybaby to me and they either need to decide to kill him off or do something with him. Maybe he is the one that kills Pope? I think that would be cool to see.

Regarding Juice, it seems a lot easier to get into the SOA than real life biker gangs. Hang around the club house for six months and make sure you get everyone their beer on time, bam you're patched in.

 

[georgec]

Regarding Juice, it seems a lot easier to get into the SOA than real life biker gangs. Hang around the club house for six months and make sure you get everyone their beer on time, bam you're patched in.

Also cry frequently. That'll boost your chances.

 

[Sawyer]

It really is a shame Jax drugged her up, Wendy looked damn hot...