The Amazing Spider-Man "SPIDER-MAN 4 Production on Indefinite Hold "....NOT!...or Maybe?

[TheSlag]

/\... hate to say it, but I agree. I even find Morbius more interesting than the Vulture.

 

[Dragon]

Ha. Don't get me wrong they couldn't get more perfect by casting Ben Kingsley for the Vulture but as far as I'm concerned they only have two more "aces in the hole" with this franchise and they are Kraven and Lizard. Hell, I'd even take Morbius over the Vulture.

Okay.. So a guy with the ability of flight isn't appealing.. But Kraven, who can't do anything in particular is?

 

[TheFuture]

Okay.. So a guy with the ability of flight isn't appealing.. But Kraven, who can't do anything in particular is?

It's what Kraven offers to the story, put him in with Lizard and not only have you've got a ready made compelling story, but for Sony, if marketed correctly, it can be a dream for them. Hell, you could even make two films out of Kraven with him hunting both villains and Spidey and it would be compelling.

 

[TheSlag]

I agree that adding Kraven as a secondary villain with the Lizard as the primary story could prove to be a very compelling story. The only thing I worry about is how Kraven the character would come off on the big screen.

 

[TheFuture]

I agree that adding Kraven as a secondary villain with the Lizard as the primary story could prove to be a very compelling story. The only thing I worry about is how Kraven the character would come off on the big screen.

Just keep Gerard Butler away from the role, the man can't do accents. I think if a character is written and designed well enough then they can appeal to all aspects of the audience, Doc Ock proved that.

 

[TheSlag]

Agreed on Gerard Butler. Have not been impressed with his work. I just wonder, regardless of who plays the character, how a Big Game hunter in NYC would come off. Not saying it could not, but wondering.

I almost think something along the lines of the Punisher (not saying that character, just something more along that line) hunting the Lizard and/or Spidey, might work (or come off) better.

But, I love Kraven's Last Hunt story from the comics. So, I have mixed feelings.

 

[Dragon]

It's what Kraven offers to the story, put him in with Lizard and not only have you've got a ready made compelling story, but for Sony, if marketed correctly, it can be a dream for them. Hell, you could even make two films out of Kraven with him hunting both villains and Spidey and it would be compelling.

First, this fan-fantasy thing about Kraven and Lizard ain't gonna happen. Kraven would be slaughtered by the Lizard. He can'r even handle Spidey in actual combat. And having Kraven chasing the Lizard takes away from the fear-factor of the Lizard. The Lizard would have to be toned down to make Kraven seem dangerous. That or Kraven would be shown to be an arrogant kook who get his ass handed to him. Either way it does neither character any good.

Second, I'm still trying to understand what it is that Kraven (Who I like, BTW) brings that's more than the Vulture. The Vulture would promise far more spectacular battles than Kraven. And the Vulture can be portrayed as the most ruthless of Spidey's movie villains.

 

[Oscorp]

Okay.. So a guy with the ability of flight isn't appealing.. But Kraven, who can't do anything in particular is?

He can do alot. And what he brings to the story is more important, than what powers he's got if you ask me. Lizard would bring the more visually stunning battles, while Kraven would work more as the always lurking threat.

 

[Dragon]

He can do alot.

So can the Vulture. In fact he can do anything Kraven could, plus he can fly.

And what he brings to the story is more important, than what powers he's got if you ask me. Lizard would bring the more visually stunning battles, while Kraven would work more as the always lurking threat.

This isn't saying much. You can write a compelling story with ANY character. But the powers are most certainly important. Kraven could ONLY work as a secondary villain. Vulture could be a leading villain.

 

[Deaths Head II]

First, this fan-fantasy thing about Kraven and Lizard ain't gonna happen. Kraven would be slaughtered by the Lizard. He can'r even handle Spidey in actual combat.

Kraven's effectiveness always came from his skills as a hunter and his use of traps and potions, not from his strength in a one on one fight.

Neither character would need to be downscaled. The Lizard could easily get the upperhand on Kraven in their first encounter and Kraven could inject him with a serum to weaken him just like he did to Spider-Man in his first fight with Spider-Man. Then the remainder of the film would be Kraven trying to kill the weakened Lizard for sport while Spider-Man wants to reach the Lizard first and save Dr. Connors.

 

[Oscorp]

So can the Vulture. In fact he can do anything Kraven could, plus he can fly.

I'm not saying Vulture can't. I'm just saying that Kraven could bring as much as Vulture to the film as far as story goes.

This isn't saying much. You can write a compelling story with ANY character. But the powers are most certainly important. Kraven could ONLY work as a secondary villain. Vulture could be a leading villain.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you! Actually, I've posted several times that I'd love to see Vulture (with Ben Kingsley) on screen if they use him somewhat like how Raimi originally wanted in Spider-Man 3, with Electro as the secendary villain instead of Sandman. But Kraven could be really cool too!

 

[Dragon]

Kraven's effectiveness always came from his skills as a hunter and his use of traps and potions, not from his strength in a one on one fight.

Neither character would need to be downscaled. The Lizard could easily get the upperhand on Kraven in their first encounter and Kraven could inject him with a serum to weaken him just like he did to Spider-Man in his first fight with Spider-Man. Then the remainder of the film would be Kraven trying to kill the weakened Lizard for sport while Spider-Man wants to reach the Lizard first and save Dr. Connors.

But your problem is laid out right there. Because once the Lizard got the upperhand, he'd kill Kraven. Secondly, the Lizard's skin is like armor. Kraven woudn't be injecting him with anything. Thirdly, your scenario IS watering the Lizard down if he's weakend by Kraven. A character like the Lizard should be the terrifying one in the film. It should damn-near kill Spidey to cure Connors.

The only way I could see Kraven working in a Lizard scenario is if Kraven attempted to control the Lizard as he has with creatures like Gog or the Gibbon.

 

[Deaths Head II]

But your problem is laid out right there. Because once the Lizard got the upperhand, he'd kill Kraven. Secondly, the Lizard's skin is like armor. Kraven woudn't be injecting him with anything. Thirdly, your scenario IS watering the Lizard down if he's weakend by Kraven. A character like the Lizard should be the terrifying one in the film. It should damn-near kill Spidey to cure Connors.

Kraven could easily use a spray or gas on the Lizard, and both the Lizard and Kraven have played the role of "the stalker" of Spider-Man in the comics. Saying the Lizard should be the only terrifying character is kind of silly to me. Kraven was pretty damn creepy in a lot of his stories (especially in Kraven's Last Hunt) and if you got a good enough actor he could be that way in the film. Besides, Kraven could be taken out by Spidey before he has a rematch with the Lizard so the film could never clearly establish which one would win the rematch either way. Or perhaps Spidey interrupts their first fight and Kraven decides to devote his attention to Spidey to make sure he doesn't interrupt his hunt again.

 

[Dragon]

Kraven could easily use a spray or gas on the Lizard, and both the Lizard and Kraven have played the role of "the stalker" of Spider-Man in the comics. Saying the Lizard should be the only terrifying character is kind of silly to me.

Kraven is a normal human. The Lizard is a monster. Which is the scarier of the two? Trying to make the normal human scarier than the monster would be laughable at best.

Kraven was pretty damn creepy in a lot of his stories (especially in Kraven's Last Hunt) and if you got a good enough actor he could be that way in the film. ['quote]

Creepy isn't terrifying. For a film with the scope of Spider-Man terrifying (As in he can rend you limb-from-limb) is the way to go.

Besides, Kraven could be taken out by Spidey before he has a rematch with the Lizard so the film could never clearly establish which one would win the rematch either way. Or perhaps Spidey interrupts their first fight and Kraven decides to devote his attention to Spidey to make sure he doesn't interrupt his hunt again.

But either way, weakening the Lizard would be a mistake. Spidey should have to go against a full-powered savage Lizard. Not a sad, pathetic shell of a creature.

The strength of the story is Peter having to fight for his life to SAVE Connors' life, while the Lizard has no qualms about killing Pete.

 

[Deaths Head II]

Creepy isn't terrifying. For a film with the scope of Spider-Man terrifying (As in he can rend you limb-from-limb) is the way to go.

The Lizard is terrifying in his actual capabilities, Kraven is creepy in his mindset and actions. They both provide a different element. Obviously the human terror isn't going to supply the same feelings as the monster terror, but that doesn't mean the human terror adds nothing to the story.

And unless they have the Lizard talking in a lisp about his master plans to have lizards rule the world (which would make him less scary imo), they need some charismatic actor on the villains side. Having Spidey versus monster would not be as interesting.

But either way, weakening the Lizard would be a mistake. Spidey should have to go against a full-powered savage Lizard. Not a sad, pathetic shell of a creature.

The Lizard could find the time to recover while Spidey is busy trying to take down Kraven.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Anyone else find the idea of the Vulture unappealing and not very interesting

I have to completely disagree. He can be a very interesting character. Just look what they did with some of the characters in these films os far. They've expanded them. Who's to say they can't do the same for VUlture? SO, I have to say, I'm happy Vulture may be in this film.

 

[RustyCage]

I have to side with the latest Kraven supporters on here, as far as storytelling goes. I find him far more compelling - especially when paired with (or technically, against) Lizard in the villain slots. Death's Head's last post was great. I mean, what are you on about Dragon? Who says there wouldn't be times when Spidey fights Lizard at full strength? C'mon. Of course there would be. Don't start with the whole dishonest twisty crap.

Vulture could be great for the next film (as in, after 4) if the storyline deems it appropriate, but for Spidey 4 I want to see Doc Connors finally develop some more (it's been waiting to happen for 2 films now), and that means I want Kraven in on the action. Any other villains involved should be knock-me-downs to get things rolling and give Spidey some more screentime to show his true personality (quips, etcetera) and how involved he is with the protecting the city on the smaller scale too. I'm thinking Shocker, Rhino, or (most preferably) Mysterio.

Further, approaching Dragon again, since when was Kraven not able to rip Spidey limb from limb? Kraven is pretty bada**, if I recall correctly.

But yeah, ultimately, I wanna see Vulture, but it seems a bit illogical to expect him in 4 considering the most sensible story direction they would take after 3. But really, who knows what they'll do. It's not like they were very logical when they shoehorned Venom in and mishandled him like that.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Edit-nvm

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Edit

 

[NinjaCarm]

I'm going to post the following to every response on every board I go on because I'm reading useless debates on here like "No Lizard is stronger than this guy, and Kraven uses his skills, and Carnage is not that insane" you are all basically saying yeah go ahead Raimi make another Dawson's Creek episode with Spider-Man eye candy:

I could really care less who the villains will be in the next movie. All I want, for the love of GOD, is a true Spider-Man movie, a true representation of the feel good semi-confident Peter Parker that when he gets into the costume he's a charmingly funny makes you feel safe Spider-Man, not catering to the damn kiddies, with genuine and ENGAGING acting, a complex plot not made for morons, with awe inspiring Spider-Man action scenes... not recycled music shoddy swinging scenes, and extremely threatening villains that don't cry.

Oh, and f you Sony.

 

[sauronthegreat]

Just look what they did with some of the characters in these films os far. They've expanded them.

And you are referring to which exactly?
I don't see how turning Green Goblin into a plastic power ranger and stripping him of every aspect that made him a goblin was expanding his character; or Venom which is in every way superior to Spider-Man asking Sandman for help in his only battle with Spidey; not to mention Jameson and his totally hollow personality; and the worst thing of all turning MJ into Gwen and Gwen to MJ we all know from the source material. Playing out the most significant and memorable scene from the comics, the bridge scene with Goblin and not killing the character that was supposed to be Gwen, but was called MJ, while still possesed all the Gwen's character traits, and then even worse they added Gwen later on, but it was a model and a sex symbol we all know as MJ in comics.
I don't see how this is expanding the characters.
The only characters that were expanded for the better was Aunt May. And maybe Octopus, but his character was concieved by combining traits of two other Spidey villains: Lizard and Scorpion.
The new animated show really expanded almost every single chaarcter of Spider-Man universe, but the films... I don't think so.

 

[Oscorp]

Great posts, both NinjaCarm and sauronthegreat!

EDIT: And RustyCage too, of course! I agree with everything you just said!

 

[Dragon]

The Lizard is terrifying in his actual capabilities, Kraven is creepy in his mindset and actions. They both provide a different element. Obviously the human terror isn't going to supply the same feelings as the monster terror, but that doesn't mean the human terror adds nothing to the story.

It isn't really needed. You already have with the Lizard all the elements you need.

1. Spidey trying to stop the Lizard from killing anyone.
2.Spidey trying to stop the police from killing the Lizard.
3. Spidey trying to find a way of curing the Lizard before it's too late (There can be a time limit afterwhich the effects become permanent.)

And unless they have the Lizard talking in a lisp about his master plans to have lizards rule the world (which would make him less scary imo), they need some charismatic actor on the villains side. Having Spidey versus monster would not be as interesting.

Well, first they should make him speak. And they can even have points where he's only partially the Lizard, to both give Dylan Baker some face-time and to show that he's struggling to regain control of his body.

But second, the authorities and for that matter Jonah, screaming for the Lizard's head cover that. And Spidey trying to save the Lizard from the cops will add fuel to Jonah's accusations against him.

The Lizard could find the time to recover while Spidey is busy trying to take down Kraven.

But again- the porblem is twofold- If you weaken the Lizard at all, you're weakening him as a character. And- if you show Kraven use a potion or the like to weaken him, then you're already spoiling the ending, where Spidey uses a chemical to restore Connors. Until the very end, the Lizard should be unstoppable. We should be wondering if Spidey will ever be able to get close enough to save him before the Lizard kills him. If Kraven gets that close, then the problem is already solved.

 

[Dragon]

I have to side with the latest Kraven supporters on here, as far as storytelling goes. I find him far more compelling - especially when paired with (or technically, against) Lizard in the villain slots. Death's Head's last post was great. I mean, what are you on about Dragon? Who says there wouldn't be times when Spidey fights Lizard at full strength? C'mon. Of course there would be. Don't start with the whole dishonest twisty crap.

The Lizard should appear unstoppable until the end. That's where the excitement comes from. Having Kraven, a character who isn't as powerful as Spider-Man slow him down breaks the central focus of how unbelievably powerful the Lizard is. The Guy can lift a train car.

Vulture could be great for the next film (as in, after 4) if the storyline deems it appropriate, but for Spidey 4 I want to see Doc Connors finally develop some more (it's been waiting to happen for 2 films now), and that means I want Kraven in on the action.

I too would love to see the Lizard. I'd also like to see Kraven in a Spidey story. But the idea of Kraven vs. the Lizard vs. Spidey would put all three characters in a poor light.

Further, approaching Dragon again, since when was Kraven not able to rip Spidey limb from limb? Kraven is pretty bada**, if I recall correctly.

You don't remember correctly. Kraven could NEVER handle Spidey in straight combat. Only his traps, weapons and cunning gave Spidey problems. And Spidey would always wind up defeating him somewhat easily when it came down to a slugfest.

But yeah, ultimately, I wanna see Vulture, but it seems a bit illogical to expect him in 4 considering the most sensible story direction they would take after 3. But really, who knows what they'll do. It's not like they were very logical when they shoehorned Venom in and mishandled him like that.

Well, if the recent rumors are true, then regardless of how logical the Lizard seems, Sony doesn't want to use him apparently. So It appears that in light of that Sam is going with his desire to use the Vulture. Which is fine. The Vulture could make for a spectacular villain, even if on some levels reminiscent of the Goblin.

And the rumor regarding Sony wanting to use a villain who's "selling comics right now" is silly, since there is no villain that's selling comics right now. Hell, it's been ten years since even Venom was a big deal as far as sales go.

 

[Deaths Head II]

It isn't really needed. You already have with the Lizard all the elements you need.

1. Spidey trying to stop the Lizard from killing anyone.
2.Spidey trying to stop the police from killing the Lizard.
3. Spidey trying to find a way of curing the Lizard before it's too late (There can be a time limit afterwhich the effects become permanent.)

If the police are a threat against the Lizard, that makes him even less of a threat then Kraven facing off against the Lizard. The reason why Spidey is needed is because his villains run circles around the cops most of the time. Peter would be more afraid of the cops getting killed. He would of course try to save civilians, but then the only real threat is the time limit. Peter needs an obstacle to prevent him from reaching that time limit. With Kraven in play, it becomes more then just a matter of just reaching the Lizard and trying to change him back to Connors. Kraven would really raise the stakes.

Well, first they should make him speak. And they can even have points where he's only partially the Lizard, to both give Dylan Baker some face-time and to show that he's struggling to regain control of his body.

But second, the authorities and for that matter Jonah, screaming for the Lizard's head cover that. And Spidey trying to save the Lizard from the cops will add fuel to Jonah's accusations against him.

Jonah and the authorities really would not cover that. You need a William Dafoe or someone like that to ooze menace. Baker would play the sympathetic villain, but an evil threat creates a better balance. And I personally always felt a more raging Lizard is more scary then a talkative and planning Lizard. The Lizard is interesting to me mostly because it's Connors underneath. Kraven is interesting just in his dynamic as a villain and character.

But again- the porblem is twofold- If you weaken the Lizard at all, you're weakening him as a character. And- if you show Kraven use a potion or the like to weaken him, then you're already spoiling the ending, where Spidey uses a chemical to restore Connors. Until the very end, the Lizard should be unstoppable. We should be wondering if Spidey will ever be able to get close enough to save him before the Lizard kills him. If Kraven gets that close, then the problem is already solved.

But you just said that they should have points where he's only partially the Lizard to show Connor is struggling. If Connor is able to fight the beast within that alone makes the Lizzard not unstoppable. These feel like very contradictory positions.

And like it was mentioned, Kraven isn't a pushover. Just because Kraven can get close doesn't mean Spider-Man automatically can. Especially since Kraven is more likely to use his traps and skills to get close, not anything Spider-Man has available. Not to mention Spider-Man will probably have been injured or worn out after a fight with Kraven. They always milk worn out Peter in these movies anyway, and it would be even more intense if Spider-Man is half dead after fighting against Kraven and has to go against a fully transformed and recovered Lizard.