The Amazing Spider-Man "SPIDER-MAN 4 Production on Indefinite Hold "....NOT!...or Maybe?

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The Vulture isn't one of my favorite villains, but I'm not opposed to seeing him in a movie. With the flying and whatnot, having the Vulture would promise some pretty cool fight scenes.

(Though I'm ticked that the Lizard isn't the obvious choice for this movie. LAME.)
 
I think people are underestimating him and what they can do. For a film, you can expand upon a character and only make him better. For me, film Doc Ock worked better in the comics. Even though he is more well known and liked than Vulture, people are only looking at it in a simple way. An old man who has wings. I would have preferred Lizard, but I'll be open minded about it.
 
Showy, Showy, Showy...this has got to be one of the most clear, concise, on-the-button statements I have ever read from you.

Oh, Show...if you only knew... :facepalm:


If people would pause and think a second, they'd realize many, many silly Hollywood productions go through tough periods of confusion, mis-communication, disagreements and uncertainty. In fact, that is part of the working process itself between filmmakers/artists and studios, as one is concerned with delivering an artistic statement (and perhaps entertaining), while the other is mainly concerned with delivering a profitable, continuously "rewarding" product.

Why do we hear more about troubles on franchises such as Spider-Man? Well, a lot of that is because these babies are simply much, much bigger films ("tentpoles" for summer or otherwise), and there are simply many more people both working on the films, and concerned with making sure that they become successful.

Concerning Spidey directly, people might also want to consider that all of the Spider-Man films have had their behind-the-scenes wrangles, if you do a little digging -- all the way back to the first one (which took two decades to make, natch).

A lot of you know about how Mr. Maguire was almost replaced on Film 2, and you have poured over the details of "what went wrong" with Film 3. What is different about the "alleged" struggles we're hearing about on this picture?

Well, let's role a scenario together, shall we? You've got one very confident studio, who, despite facilitating heavy arguments about and asserting influence over the last picture, still came out on top, grossing mucho moolah worldwide -- so they see themselves in the right (thus their decision to keep on Vanderbilt and prepare to use his scenario for Films 5 and 6 -- if not sooner). Then, on the other end, you've got a confident, successful filmmaker who, while delivering very successful pictures for the studio, still operates at a bit of a "distance" in terms of establishing his "artistic space" and his "storylines." He was very hesitant to return after the production of Film 3, but he loves the character so much, and the studio offered such an olive branch, that he couldn't turn down one more opportunity to "set things right."

Meanwhile, you've got increasing fan (yeah, you guys) and blockbuster expectations. Whether the choices made for the last film were "right" or not, the way the narrative played out created a pretty huge set of expectations for where the next film might take Spidey, and whom he might face off against.

Couple all this in with a witches' brew of multiple scriptwriters (with various shifting loyalties), bottom-line producers who want to trust the filmmaker, but can't or won't spend another ten million in development costs just to visualize a villain or a stunt that may not be used at all, and an aging lead cast who might have very particular demands of their own regarding characterization and narrative -- and you're in the depths of sticky, sticky situation, with a lot of money at play, a lot of egos to satisfy, and a lot of people at generally high, high levels of stress.

So what is really going on here is...Hollywood 101.

Are things leaking to gauge a reaction? Possibly.

Are some statements you hear not the whole truth? Very likely.

Will Spider-Man 4 get made in its current incarnation? What is its current incarnation?

Prediction cloudy -- check back in 2010. ;)

:ikyn

Very interesting and very informative as always JM.
 
Vulture as only villain won't work. No way.
Storywise, maybe..but marketing-wise, it's a failure.
They better add another villain if they want to use Vulture.

Of course he can work. A simple upgrading of his powers is all that's needed. Make him a bit stronger, and give him some weaponry.
 
Very interesting and very informative as always JM.

I thought it was all common sense by now - it should be to SHH addicts anyway. But I guess some people don't get it despite it being so obvious and so constantly expressed, and I guess calling it 'Hollywood 101' is appropriate for that reason. :o
 
I still dont see a point for using Vulture.
Vulture clearly isn't the fan favorite villain.
Out of all thoses villain,s why Vulture?
However, I can live with Vulture as the secondary villain.
Still hoping for Electro though.


I agree. Vulture does not scream "Must See Villain" to me either. And I struggle to see how the Vulture can carry a movie on his own.

Kind of reminds me of how I thought Sandman could not carry a movie on his own. Thankfully we had the Harry story in SM3.

With SM4, what do we have to supplement at this point? Nothing, other than the terrible Vulturess rumor (God I hope it's ONLY a rumor), and not like the rumored 60 ft T-Rex Roaring Sandman we had before SM3's release. Which we all know turned out to be true unfortunately.
 
"We need to put in a fan favorite, the fans want Venom" - Avi Arad

Most villains may serve the movie well, so long as the time and care for writing them goes in.

To this day, I still don't know why Sandman helped Venom at the end. Didn't he just want to steal money and be left alone? When did he become bent on killing Spidey?
 
Vulture can make a good villain, but I agree with others are saying. He shouldn't be the only villain. He's just not that dynamic a character, so there'd have to be another villain if Raimi is indeed set on using Vulture, and again, the Vultress would be an absolutely awful choice.

All of the really major Spider-Man villains are already gone, so why even bother trying to turn any of the other villains into a more complex character than they are in the comics? I really don't see how they could make Vulture, Mysterio, Electro, or any of the others a truly captivating character who can carry a whole movie.

I hope the two villain idea is still up. There's good combinations. Vulture and Electro, Vulture and Scorpion, Lizard and Electro, Mysterio and Scorpion....

"We need to put in a fan favorite, the fans want Venom" - Avi Arad

Most villains may serve the movie well, so long as the time and care for writing them goes in.

To this day, I still don't know why Sandman helped Venom at the end. Didn't he just want to steal money and be left alone? When did he become bent on killing Spidey?

In the game Venom had Sandman's daughter and blackmailed him into helping him.

It's sad that horrid mess of a game handled that plot point better than the movie...
 
^^ It was better developed in the book for Spider-Man 3...

Sandman was stealing money to help his daughter, and Spider-Man kept preventing him from doing that. Plus, in the book (and video game, I believe) Venom actually kidnapped Sandman's daughter and forced him to help destroy Spider-Man...

The development worked better for Sandman than it did for Venom.... as Venom in just about every other adaptation wanted to the glory of killing Spider-Man all to himself...
 
I disagree with all the major Spidey Villains are gone (but for the Love of Pete Raimi.. QUIT KILLIN THE DAMN VILLAINS OFF).

I think the Lizard is a "major" villain. Or to be more concise, a dynamic enough character in his alter-ego (Connors) to easily carry a film. Especially if you throw in the Connors Clan and the storylines that can come from that (i.e. Peter being adopted by the Connors Clan as part of the family).

Also, the Lizard should be in Raimi's "wheel house" with his roots in Horror. Assuming (BIG ASSUMPTION) that Raimi goes for it, and does not water it down for the kiddies.

And I am NOT saying that it has to be R-rated or blood soaked. There are many more subtle and better ways to bring horror and suspense without that.
 
Well I wouldn't have a problem with Lizard being the only villain if we didn't have sympathetic villains in previous movies. It's inevitable with him. All the fanboys know that he'll get cured and redeemed at the end. I don't want another movie where the only villain isn't really a villain at all.
 
Well I wouldn't have a problem with Lizard being the only villain if we didn't have sympathetic villains in previous movies. It's inevitable with him. All the fanboys know that he'll get cured and redeemed at the end. I don't want another movie where the only villain isn't really a villain at all.

I agree with you that Raimi has kinda f'd the pooch by making so many villains sympathetic, and thus, taking away from the Lizard/Dr. Connors storyline. And obviously (it appears), we will NOT be getting the Lizard in SM4.

Pity.

I also would not be so sure that Connors will be cured/redeemed at the end. At least not cured, I will leave it at that. One can "hope" at least.

If Connors is not cured (i.e. dies), perhaps Raimi could make up for missing the Gwen Stacy death arc, and show us Peter/Spider-Man, with all his powers, STILL not being able to save the one he loves.

It (Gwen's death arc) always left me with that impression, where he ignored his powers and Uncle Ben paid the price, and even WITH his powers.. Gwen (now possibly Connors?) paid the price.

Quet poetic and dramatic to me. But, it is ONLY a Pipe Dream obviously.
 
My opinion of the Vulture for the movies.

Adrian Toomes is an innovator. His colleagues and business enemies call him 'The Vulture' by the way he does business. He ensures that companies he wishes to take over or run are put in positions of financial starvation and then picks them apart once they have collapsed.

After the Events of Spider-Man 3, Oscorp is placed in an interesting position. Harry owned 40% of the company and those shares are now in open to the public as Norman had made it so that if the Osborn name did not control the company, none of the remaining board members could. A lesson he made the old board members pay for in the first movie. Toomes quickly takes advantage of this and buys his interest in the company. Due to Harry being head of special projects at the time, Toomes is able to take over this dept. easily. We quickly find out that the way Toomes puts his enemies in a weak position is through illegal activity and influence. (introduce secondary villain as an enforcer). His enforcer fails to kill off the remaining board members, due partly to Spider-man saving them. Through Harry and Norman's old notes, he not only finds out about the goblin tech, but about Peter Parker. He modifies the tech to create a flight suit. He keeps it great (Oscorp colors after all). He decides to finish the job himself. True to form, he decides to put Parker in a position where he is starving, ruining Parker's life with his financial influence and ensuring that the final battle takes place on a plane (carrying the remaining board members) where Toomes has the greatest advantage. The battle would be spider-man vs the vulture on a plane which loses control and begins to crash land.
 
My opinion of the Vulture for the movies.

Adrian Toomes is an innovator. His colleagues and business enemies call him 'The Vulture' by the way he does business. He ensures that companies he wishes to take over or run are put in positions of financial starvation and then picks them apart once they have collapsed.

After the Events of Spider-Man 3, Oscorp is placed in an interesting position. Harry owned 40% of the company and those shares are now in open to the public as Norman had made it so that if the Osborn name did not control the company, none of the remaining board members could. A lesson he made the old board members pay for in the first movie. Toomes quickly takes advantage of this and buys his interest in the company. Due to Harry being head of special projects at the time, Toomes is able to take over this dept. easily. We quickly find out that the way Toomes puts his enemies in a weak position is through illegal activity and influence. (introduce secondary villain as an enforcer). His enforcer fails to kill off the remaining board members, due partly to Spider-man saving them. Through Harry and Norman's old notes, he not only finds out about the goblin tech, but about Peter Parker. He modifies the tech to create a flight suit. He keeps it great (Oscorp colors after all). He decides to finish the job himself. True to form, he decides to put Parker in a position where he is starving, ruining Parker's life with his financial influence and ensuring that the final battle takes place on a plane (carrying the remaining board members) where Toomes has the greatest advantage. The battle would be spider-man vs the vulture on a plane which loses control and begins to crash land.
 
Nothing personal, but I do not like that scenerio.

I hate having Spider-Man and Vulture fight in a confined area of a plane.

I do not like having the Vulture (along with every other villain) know who Spider-Man is.

And if you mean fight outside a flying plane? No way. Way to unrealistic.

IF we get the vulture, the best battles would be aerial battles between the sky canyons of NYC. But even that does not impress me that much.
 
^ I find it amusing that you think a fight scene on a plane between a man with spider powers and old guy in a winged flight suit is unrealistic. :)
 
^ I find it amusing that you think a fight scene on a plane between a man with spider powers and old guy in a winged flight suit is unrealistic. :)


Well, IMO, there should still be limits to believability even in a SuperHero movie. And those limits should include the laws of Physics, even with the assumption of belief of Super Powers by the characters.

For example, Even IF Spider-man could cling to the outside of the plane in flight, with the wind force he would be exposed to, how coudl he a) punch b) shoot webbing?

How could Vulture do the same? Punch? How could vulture have the speed where he could keep up with a flying plane?

And where would Spider-Man swing from and to with his webbing, even if we suspend belief and assume he could? Swing from the plane to what? From one wing to another wing? THAT would really defy physics (with the wind force and the speed of the plane).
 
I did mean outside of the plane.

I wish I could draw so I could do up some story boards but as unrealistic as it sounds. I really feel it would make for an amazing! action sequence. Spider-Man literally trying to both hang on and breathe while the Vulture is able to carefully calculate each attack. His spider-sense would have to be a big influence in how he is able to fight off the vulture. Of course, the vulture, seeing that he cannot just drop spidey to his doom, decides to blow the plane engines. which leave spider-man to save the falling plane.

Sounds a lot like the train sequence, no? BUT IN THE SKY! :D lol

Alternatively, there was a fan poster that showed a cloudy day in NY and I pictured an aerial battle with Spider-Man falling from a great highest, completely relying on his spider-sense to ensure he doesn't hit a building and avoids the vulture. while being tossed around in the NY sky.
 
If the plane is 20,000 feet in the air.....yeah it would be unrealistic even for them.
 
Funny, but when I think of the Vulture (old man in strange outfit)and SM4 (especially IF the Vulturess is true), I think of an old ugly buzzard flying over "Dead Meat". LOL..

I hope not symbolic of SM4.
 
If the plane is 20,000 feet in the air.....yeah it would be unrealistic even for them.

It isn't even a question of the altitude. The plane is flying at hundreds of miles per hour. Once the Vulture exited the plane he couldn't keep up with it.
 
Anyone else find the idea of the Vulture unappealing and not very interesting from a marketing and promotion point of view?
 
Aye Captain!!! :cwink: Ummmm.. I mean.. "yes"

Ha. :p Don't get me wrong they couldn't get more perfect by casting Ben Kingsley for the Vulture but as far as I'm concerned they only have two more "aces in the hole" with this franchise and they are Kraven and Lizard. Hell, I'd even take Morbius over the Vulture. :cwink:
 
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