Spider-Man: Pre-Brand New Day or Post-Brand New Day?

[random_havoc]

Pre-OMD/BND was superior, imo.

As for the deaths thing Dan, I've been saying for years that the fact the virtually no characters stay dead in comics is one of the worst things about Marvel and DC comics.

Bringing back a decades' long dead character was really the best way that could be thought of to come up with a new buddy character for peter? Really?

Constantly resurrecting characters means there's no more drama in the deaths, and no real consequences. Case in point: Ms Marvel. When read the issue where they killed her off in her title, actually laughed. I friend of mine who likes the character was bothered that they killed her, and I said, "just give it a year". My mistake she was back in, what, 3 months? Pathetic.

My brother read comics as a kid and still loves the characters, but he never buys the comics. Sometimes he'll ask me about something he's heard has happened. "So Bill, I heard they killed Cap off a while back?" "Yeah, but he's back alive now". At that point my brother just laughed. Frankly, I don't blame him for not spending money on this stuff. The only other thing I can think of that pulls that kind of cheap, crappy plotting is soap operas. And that's pretty pathetic company to keep.

I don't care who you kill in asm, at this point it will mean nothing to me.

Imo, crap like that is one of the reasons why comics are still mocked by rather than considered a valid art form.

 

[Dan_Slott]

As for the deaths thing Dan, I've been saying for years that the fact the virtually no characters stay dead in comics is one of the worst things about Marvel and DC comics.

It's the nature of the medium. This is the way it's always been. After 70 to 80 years, you're just noticing it NOW?

Bringing back a decades' long dead character was really the best way that could be thought of to come up with a new buddy character for peter? Really?

You know who was a decades' long dead character? Aunt May. When she came back after her "death" in ASM #400, many Spider-fans cried foul. Cut to a few years later, and practically all of those same fans were saying that the JMS version of Aunt May was the best take on the character ever. So yeah, you're whinging now, but when reason reasserts itself and you move past it, who knows? Maybe (like many others) you'll enjoy well written stories, like Joe Kelly's AMERICAN SON arc, and then you'll see the merit in bringing back a character who has a rich, long history with Pete.

Constantly resurrecting characters means there's no more drama in the deaths, and no real consequences. Case in point: Ms Marvel. When read the issue where they killed her off in her title, actually laughed. I friend of mine who likes the character was bothered that they killed her, and I said, "just give it a year". My mistake she was back in, what, 3 months? Pathetic.

Spare me the histrionics. It's been this way since the beginning. In the early issues of the FF, every single time Stan & Jack did a Doctor Doom story they "killed" him: they threw him out of a plane, they shrunk him into nothingness, they blew him up, etc., etc., etc... And EVERY time they'd bring him back he'd say "Little did you know, I had a jet pack!", "Fortunately, I shrunk down into another dimension, where I constructed a growth ray!", "There was a trap door!", "That was a robot double!", and so on.

It's always been this way. The source material shouldn't lose points because YOU'VE gotten older and more jaded? This is the way it works. You can't complain about a wheel being round or water being wet. C'mon.

My brother read comics as a kid and still loves the characters, but he never buys the comics. Sometimes he'll ask me about something he's heard has happened. "So Bill, I heard they killed Cap off a while back?" "Yeah, but he's back alive now". At that point my brother just laughed. Frankly, I don't blame him for not spending money on this stuff.

Did you also tell him that with Bucky as Cap, the book is going through one of it's greatest and best written runs in years?

The only other thing I can think of that pulls that kind of cheap, crappy plotting is soap operas. And that's pretty pathetic company to keep.

Sorry, but Soap Operas are one of the most devoutly followed forms of serialized fiction in our lifetime. And adding soap opera elements to the comic medium is one of the big innovations that Stan was PROUD to bring to Marvel Comics.

I don't care who you kill in asm, at this point it will mean nothing to me. Imo, crap like that is one of the reasons why comics are still mocked by rather than considered a valid art form.

I'm so glad you're one of the people reviewing comics for other web-sites.

 

[kguillou]

Yeah but come on Dan, even you have to admit that death has become almost laughable in comics these days. You used the Dr.Doom example but we're not talking about issues where you see Dr Doom, or Dr. Octopus, or the Red Skull in an explosion and they scream with their fists in the air "I'll get you NEXT TIME!!!!". OF COURSE we dont expect them to stay dead. We're talking about the big issues that get over hyped and make a giant spectacle out of a certain beloved character's death like Gwen Stacy, or Harry Osborn, or Jason Todd or Steve Rogers. When you kill off a beloved character like those, you want your audience to have an emotional reaction because as far as they're concerned that character's dead and never coming back. Thats what makes those big "death" issues so powerful, but if your gonna kill off major characters left and right and have them come back in a year, then eventually the audience is gonna catch on to the joke and won't really care the next time Steve Rogers dies "FOR REELZ THIS TIME!". Its not just marvel, DC is just as bad, they completely pulled the wool over our eyes with "Batman R.I.P".

 

[Dan_Slott]

Yeah but come on Dan, even you have to admit that death has become almost laughable in comics these days.

Bushwa.

It's not that "death has become almost laughable", it's that you guys are taking it SO seriously.
Back when they "killed" Superman (complete with comics that came with black arm bands), if you bought that for ONE second... C'mon. Even Barry Allen. It's comics. They're coming back. You KNOW this by now. So it's kinda silly to complain about the length of time said-beloved-character-in-question is "gone"-- whether it's 10 years, 5 years, 2 years, 1 year, three months, or the very next issue.

Good rule of thumb: If ain't Uncle Ben or Bruce Wayne's parents, they're coming back SOMEHOW.

It seems a weird thing for some people to draw the line at THIS-character or THAT-character. Especially someone who was filled with goblin juice at the time-- when the LAST person WITH HIS SAME DNA who was ALSOfilled with GOBLIN JUICE came back TOO!

COME ON! Stop arguing for the sake of arguing-- or because you still have a bee in your proverbial bonnet over story x, y, or z.

 

[venom892]

But don't you think knowing a character's death will be reversed in mere months to a year lessens the impact of a story?It's rumored that even you and the rest of the Brian trust flat out refused to bring back Gwen from the grave but why?Shouldn't she be on the canvas so she could be used too?By your logic that's what should happen.So why draw the line at Gwen?To be Honest since Norman came back I haven't seen on story that so great that it warranted he coming back.Sure the stories have been good but I feel Norman is always used as a clinch.Oh The clone Saga how the end do we end it...oh Norman did it!We want to bring back Aunt May....Norman hired an actress to screw with peter!We don't want Peter to be a father..Goblin kidnapped her!and so on.But hell even Osborn has lost his dynamic with Peter because he doesn't know his identity anymore. Also it seems useless to mention that JMS story wouldn't be possible if May was dead because Marvel has erased that development.So why as fans should we be invested in something that will just be ignored or erased at an editorial whim?

 

[kguillou]

Bushwa.

It's not that "death has become almost laughable", it's that you guys are taking it SO seriously.
Back when they "killed" Superman (complete with comics that came with black arm bands), if you bought that for ONE second... C'mon. Even Barry Allen. It's comics. They're coming back. You KNOW this by now. So it's kinda silly to complain about the length of time said-beloved-character-in-question is "gone"-- whether it's 10 years, 5 years, 2 years, 1 year, three months, or the very next issue.

Good rule of thumb: If ain't Uncle Ben or Bruce Wayne's parents, they're coming back SOMEHOW.

It seems a weird thing for some people to draw the line at THIS-character or THAT-character. Especially someone who was filled with goblin juice at the time-- when the LAST person WITH HIS SAME DNA who was ALSOfilled with GOBLIN JUICE came back TOO!

COME ON! Stop arguing for the sake of arguing-- or because you still have a bee in your proverbial bonnet over story x, y, or z.

Alright, I can understand that argument, i really can BUT still, don't you think that there are some deaths that were done so well and impacted characters so much that they should probably not be touched or reversed. The popular example is Gwen Stacy. If Gwen was brought back, not only would the classic "death of Gwen Stacy" story be rendered obsolete but a significant part of spider-man would change since that death impacted him so much and changed him. I imagine thats why you and the braintrust voted against it no?

You are right tho, there are certain deaths that you just cannot take seriously off the bat. If you guys killed Spiderman tommorow, i dont think any one of us would take it seriously for one second. The same for superman, batman, or whoever. Its just that sometimes the hype and misdirection gets annoying and could end up backfiring on you guys. When Captain America died, Quesada and Brubaker both shouted at the top of their lungs "STEVE IS DEAD DEAD DEAD AND THATS IT." And then he came back a year and a half later. I understand that its a business and you guys are trying to sell comics and you KNOW that the fans will flock to the "death" issues, but i think if these "deaths" continue to be fakeouts, the fans will catch on and future "Death" issues wont sell like they used to because we know that what we're reading isn't really important and will be reversed in due time.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I voted for the "I liked Spider-Man Comics before Brand New Day" option because I haven't read any Spider-Man comics since the third issue of "One More Day." I don't know if that renders my opinion invalid, but the statement I voted for is literally true: I did like Spider-Man comics at some point before Brand New Day. Not for a while before, in retrospect--around the middle of JMS' run at the latest--but I was at least willing to read them and they were at times enjoyable.

As for the "death = lulz j/k" in comics idea, I wholeheartedly agree. I might've attempted to make a case for some comic deaths that aren't related to the origins of heroes being permanent before Barry Allen's return, but certainly not now. Barry Allen is all the proof anyone would ever need that death is absolutely never permanent for superheroes in comics. If a guy can die, have his sidekick step in and exceed him in literally every way for over 20 years, and still get brought back due to nostalgia or fanboyism or whatever you want to call it, there is no hope whatsoever that death will ever be meaningful in comics again. It's just the nature of a medium where literally every ounce of creative influence comes from fans of said medium. If a character you like dies, don't sweat it; you've just gotta wait, at most, about 10 or 15 years until other fans of that character can break into the industry and pour their nerd-love out all over the pages of his/her resurrection story.

 

[fifthfiend]

I was reading the Spider-Man: Brand New Day trades, and in the back of volume 1 they talk about all the problems the Spider-Man comics have had for the past 10 years or so, and it got me thinking

This is a pretty stupid distinction, since the biggest problems Spider-Man has had have been this or that idiot trying to **** with the marriage or trying to write in excuses so that they could, down the line, **** with the marriage, which continues directly into the comics today.

Plus of course the generalized mishmash of ****** editorial decisions and the character being chucked into this or that terrible event but it ain't like that's changed any, either.

This's one of the biggest BS arguments/talking-points I've seen posters make about BND. Especially people who haven't read most of it.

1. It's an argument that anyone-- if they were motivated strongly enough-- could make about ANY story in the history of man from boy-meets-girl onward. Show me 1 issue of ANY Top 20 comic where-- if pushed-- you COULDN'T make that argument.

And 2. Tell me where we've seen these elements before:
J. Jonah Jameson as the Mayor of New York City.
A major Spidey cast member becoming a double amputee.
Peter Parker losing his photojournalism career-- for good.
The Daily Bugle leveled to the ground.
Aunt May turned evil.
Curt Connors LOSING the fight to his reptile-side and REMAINING the Lizard full-time.
Harry on the ropes financially.
Aunt May ACTUALLY getting remarried.
I could do this all-night. There is TONS of new stuff going on in BND.

It makes me wonder, do you run around to Avengers boards and say: What? Kang? AGAIN?!
Or Daredevil boards to say: Daredevil with ninjas? Real original, guys!
Or Fantastic Four boards to say: Again with the trips to outer space?!

C'mon.

You should write a story where Eddie Brock becomes a well-intentioned yet murderous vigilante, I bet nobody's ever done a story like that.

 

[venom892]

A major Spidey cast member becoming a double amputee.
-Flash has become a vegetable at the hands of the Goblin.Not the same thing but it counts as something major happening to a recurring supporting character
Aunt May ACTUALLY getting remarried.
-She almost wed Doc Ock and maintained a relationship with Nathan L.While not married very similar
J. Jonah Jameson as the Mayor of New York City
-Actually a pretty good development kudos
Peter Parker losing his photojournalism career-- for good.
-He was already teaching before BND and didn't need anyone to ban him from Photography,He had already matured out of it.
Curt Connors LOSING the fight to his reptile-side and REMAINING the Lizard full-time.
-While he never lost the fight permanently this story had to been done to death including Torment(Where he was controlled by one of Kraven's former loves.Sound familiar?) Spectacular vol.2 #11-13(Where it was revealed he was always in control.Yea that was so bad it never got mentioned again.) and Sensational Spider-man where he turned Billy into a mini lizard(Also ignored)

 

[Themanofbat]

I like how everybody brings up this "Peter Parker: Teacher: thing like it was the greatest thing ever...

Yes, it was a brilliant idea when it was brought up... then virtually ignored by the writer who came up with it, and only came back about 4 years later when PAD starting introducing a few teaching co-workers in FNSM... a book that maybe 25k was reading at the time...



In the 70+ issues of ASM that JMS wrote, I don't believe he ever went into the teaching aspect that he brought into the book beyond the first Morlun arc... and they were in-passing comments only...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Let me first say, I'd like to post more on these boards, but lately I have been finding the boards excruciatingly slow. Am I the only one experiencing this?

Anyway, I voted I prefer the Pre-BND. I find the stories pretty hit or miss. I liked New Ways to Die and American Son, and the Ock story was pretty good. But most else was meh. I HATED what they did with the Lizard. I was never a fan of Kraven, and as much as it may be heracy, I never liked Kraven's Last Hunt. This Gauntlet/Grim Hunt can't end fast enough for me.

Not that the events just prior to OMD/BND were always so great. Honestly, the last time I really enjoyed a run was the MacFarlane/Larsen days. Heck, I even enjoyed the Clone Saga until they tried to play the switcheroo.

Anyway, other random thoughts that have popped up on this thread:

Instead of moving forward you at marvel decided Peter Pan Parker was the best way to go about things. I know you were basically roped into this, that Quesada is your boss, and what he says goes, but I can't imagine you'd ever think as a writer that a horrible deus ex machina with Mephisto was intelligent writing; it was a cheap out.

I'm glad you said this. I've said all along, aside from an excuse to retcon the marriage and have Peter making deals with the Devil, the worst thing about OMD was it very weak and cheap storytelling.

And even though the Aunt May change only lasted a few arcs, it did advance the story, and readers will be seeing a repercussion from it later in the year.

I'm glad you said that, Dan, because I was going to call you on it. We've seen her been nasty lately and then suddenly snap out of it at the end of the Lizard arc, and I thought, "wow, that was a plot line that went nowhere." But, now I'll hold judgment if it is still going to payoff.

And by the way, guys who grew up with a married Pete aren't the only ones down on OMD. I grew up with the single college Pete of the 70's. He had a very naturally progressing relationship with MJ through the 70's and 80's. The marriage was a natural progression, despite what some may say of MJ being a "party girl" or "super model."

 

[runawayboulder]

I haven't groaned in frustration over ASM since OMD. But with OMIT coming up I feel a MAJOR groan coming on.....

 

[runawayboulder]

Let me first say, I'd like to post more on these boards, but lately I have been finding the boards excruciatingly slow. Am I the only one experiencing this?

No, it's been really bad lately again. A few months ago it was the constant double posts, now they're starting to creep up again.

I'm glad you said that, Dan, because I was going to call you on it. We've seen her been nasty lately and then suddenly snap out of it at the end of the Lizard arc, and I thought, "wow, that was a plot line that went nowhere." But, now I'll hold judgment if it is still going to payoff.

That's one of the major advantages of ASM going to 2X a month with Dan as the only writer. I like ASM every week but I hate when a plot line gets ignored for the next 2 or 3 arcs. Like MJ seeing Black Cat kiss Spidey in Times Square and WTF happened to Carlie Cooper???? She's just there lately.....doing nothing.

 

[Dan_Slott]

You should write a story where Eddie Brock becomes a well-intentioned yet murderous vigilante, I bet nobody's ever done a story like that.

I know, that's right up there with stories where Electro shoots bolts of energy out of his hands, the Black Cat steals something, or all the crime lords have a gang war/power struggle.

This's the you-can-never-win angle of the "rehash" argument. If you don't get the characters or the world of Spidey right, they nail you for it. If you DO get 'em right, they say, "Seen it! Rehash!"

 

[Dan_Slott]

A major Spidey cast member becoming a double amputee.
-Flash has become a vegetable at the hands of the Goblin.Not the same thing but it counts as something major happening to a recurring supporting character

Uh oh. "Something as major happening to a recurring supporting character." Better not do THAT again.

Aunt May ACTUALLY getting remarried.
-She almost wed Doc Ock and maintained a relationship with Nathan L.While not married very similar

So you're going ON RECORD as saying CLOSE-TO-MARRIAGE is just AS good AS an ACTUAL-MARRIAGE. Good to know. Let me file that away for later. No take-backsies!t:

J. Jonah Jameson as the Mayor of New York City
-Actually a pretty good development kudos

Neat, right?

Peter Parker losing his photojournalism career-- for good.
-He was already teaching before BND and didn't need anyone to ban him from Photography,He had already matured out of it.

Quick note: Photojournalism is now officially an IMMATURE profession. All you photojournalists out there in your mid-20's or older? venom892 thinks you need to grow the hell up!

Curt Connors LOSING the fight to his reptile-side and REMAINING the Lizard full-time.
-While he never lost the fight permanently this story had to been done to death including Torment(Where he was controlled by one of Kraven's former loves.Sound familiar?) Spectacular vol.2 #11-13(Where it was revealed he was always in control.Yea that was so bad it never got mentioned again.) and Sensational Spider-man where he turned Billy into a mini lizard(Also ignored)

Not ignored. Just not relevant to this story. And while you feel the story has "been done to death", even you admit that Connors LOSING his fight to his reptile side AND Billy's fate were outcomes to Lizard stories that we've NEVER seen before. That's the definition of new-- or rather NOT the definition of "rehash".

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I still cry a tear everytime I see one of my favorite writers defend this.

Seriously, as much as Dan loves continuity, you'd think he'd realize he's writing a book that in no way can the continuity of past stories be the same anymore. Too much was changed or brought back as a result of OMD/BND.

 

[Dan_Slott]

I still cry a tear everytime I see one of my favorite writers defend this.

Awww.

Seriously, as much as Dan loves continuity, you'd think he'd realize he's writing a book that in no way can the continuity of past stories be the same anymore. Too much was changed or brought back as a result of OMD/BND.

Over its 75 year history Marvel Continuity has had numerous times where readers have been asked to accept that certain events remain the same, but where some details have been altered.

Sometimes this has been done with a "sliding timescale" (Did Flash Thompson fight in Vietnam? Grenada? Or Afghanistan? Did Spider-Man really team-up with John Belushi? Did Peter Parker see the first MATRIX movie in the theaters 11 years ago and AFTER he'd gone through grad school?).

Sometimes this has happened because a NEW revelation ABOUT the past has been made, casting the present in a different light (like MJ retroactively learning Pete's secret identity during the events of AMAZING FANTASY #15 in the PARALLEL LIVES GN). You then have to go back and look at the previous stories in a different context.

Sometimes this has been done to change a character's sensibilities and status quo. For example, it has now been stated in CAPTAIN AMERICA (my favorite monthly Marvel title) that all of the "Gosh, Golly, Gee-Whiz" era Bucky/Teen-Sidekick stories DIDN'T happen that way. That those were all American Propaganda stories and that in "reality" Bucky was a LOT closer to Steve Roger's age, that he was trained in down-and-dirty covert ops training, and that he was secretly slitting Nazi throats when you weren't looking. This asks you to make adjustments to ALL the Simon/Kirby CAP stories, MOST of Roy Thomas' INVADERS era stories with Bucky, and a lot of Lee/Kirby CAP flashbacks. And that's okay! The EXACT same thing is being asked of SPIDER-MAN readers.

Did all of the events in those stories happen? Yeah. They just happened a little differently. All those events in your ASM issues happened with the same level of minor adjustments. This isn't anything new-- or something that has only happened to readers of this generation-- this has been going on in Marvel Comics for over 3/4 of a century.

I'm sure people are going to debate a lot of this. I'm not here to tell you NOT to debate it-- it's a free country. But I am saying there is NOTHING I've said here that requires ANY defending. No matter how you might want to pick away at it-- this isn't an argument-- it's a statement. It's perfectly sound. This is how things are now. And from here we move on.

And, most importantly, we're all going to be okay.

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

Oh, God, is this true? http://**************.com/fansites/Destroyer14/news/?a=19779 Just when it couldn't get any worse.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Does it really matter? Dan himself just said that any change like that would be temporary. If you're enjoying Spider-Man's comics post-BND, keep enjoying them with the knowledge that, even if Peter's replaced, he'll be back eventually. If you're not enjoying Spider-Man's comics post-BND, well, why the hell are you still reading them?

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

Does it really matter? Dan himself just said that any change like that would be temporary. If you're enjoying Spider-Man's comics post-BND, keep enjoying them with the knowledge that, even if Peter's replaced, he'll be back eventually. If you're not enjoying Spider-Man's comics post-BND, well, why the hell are you still reading them?

It's that I'm not enjoying them (though I haven't really been able to, due to me missing a couple of issues, and I don't like to read ahead ) but, I don't know, it just kind of feels like this "big ideas" are just cop outs. I understood the whole "Batman: Reborn" deal, because it reaqlly led to something different and new with Batman, as well as the whole Captain America ordeal, but this is just pushing it. Particularly the editor's comment "We don't know what else to do with him anymore". It's just bothersome.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Was the editor Steve Wacker? I didn't read the article. But Wacker's pretty well known for messing with fans' heads.

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

Was the editor Steve Wacker? I didn't read the article. But Wacker's pretty well known for messing with fans' heads.

Yea, actually. Let's hope it's how you say. It's already bad enough that the series ships 3 times a month, putting an even bigger hole in my wallet. I don't wanna have to drop it.

 

[kguillou]

You know whats funny, Dan's been posting non stop in this thread trying to defend all this spidey stuff, yet he hasn't made one comment in the "THANK YOU DAN SLOTT!" thread. Just sayin is all. lol

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He's like a moth to the flame of conflict.

 

[Themanofbat]

Dan has this weird thing to only respond to the negative posts... except this one time, at band camp, he responded to me because I had mentioned that he only responded to negative posters... so like, I hope he responds to me again, and then we can go back to band camp and eat fluffnutter sandwiches...