Discovery Star Trek: Discovery - Part 1

[Flash525]

You guys...

Let's go back to the convention I mentioned above for a moment. It is a fragile thing, and if it isn't established carefully, it falls apart. I mean, Tolkien takes so much care in establishing that Frodo is probably the only person who can carry the one ring, that we believe it- part of Tolkien's genius is having Frodo fail a lot and have to be saved by other characters. Luke Skywalker is similar in this regard.

Burnham has failed too.

Sisko may have been a demigod, but he had many disastrous failures and while it may have been his destiny to save Bajor, the writers were skillful enough to create a sense of suspense and mystery around how he could do it, and whether he was actually capable of doing it - that feat also ultimately cost him his mortal existence and everything he cared about. The defeat of the Dominion was almost equally reliant on the insurgency on Cardassia and a bunch of other events leading up to it.

Much of the resurgence was because of Dukat's failure as a Cardassian; he got too entangled with Bajoran religion and the wormhole aliens, which ties into Sisko.

If Sisko's demigod arc wasn't, then Dukat likely would've remained in power and the resurgence would never have happened. Damar was a patriot, not a leader. He wanted what was best for his people, Dukat wanted what was best for himself (and that was position behind a powerful empire/union).

Had Dukat remained in power, I doubt there would've been a Breen involvement. Star fleet certainly wouldn't have retaken DS9, and Zyal wouldn't have lost her life.

The Discovery writers don't take as much care and we get the constant feeling that Michael will step in and save the day. They started well, with her being a mutineer, that was a nice twist - but then she becomes not just highly competent but also can solve every problem.

But it hasn't been just her. It's been Spock, Pike, Tilly, Saru, Philippa etc

Michael has her support network too.

The Vulcan debate thing turning on her being honest about her feelings re Starfleet didn't really work for me. I can see the logic though of the Vulcans revering a sister of Spock......although that information was totally suppressed at the end of season 2, supposedly never to be mentioned again. Did Sarek leave records of her existence before he died ? Did Picard make a note about her, after his mind melds with Spock and Sarek ? See, retconning takes a lot of thought if it's going to be done well.

The examples you've speculated could just as easily be the reasons they knew. We've only just been introduced to the notion. The explanations can come later. This wont the the last time we visit Nivar.

Probably the best character moment this season was when Georgiou, who constantly acts as if she knows everything and can do anything, gets knocked down a peg by a quietly spoken, unassuming and almost friendly David Cronenberg. That was well done - and didn't involve crying.

An enjoyable scene indeed, one that I hope has a significant payoff.

 

[Batmannerism]

You guys...


Burnham has failed too.

Much of the resurgence was because of Dukat's failure as a Cardassian; he got too entangled with Bajoran religion and the wormhole aliens, which ties into Sisko.

If Sisko's demigod arc wasn't, then Dukat likely would've remained in power and the resurgence would never have happened. Damar was a patriot, not a leader. He wanted what was best for his people, Dukat wanted what was best for himself (and that was position behind a powerful empire/union).

Had Dukat remained in power, I doubt there would've been a Breen involvement. Star fleet certainly wouldn't have retaken DS9, and Zyal wouldn't have lost her life.

But it hasn't been just her. It's been Spock, Pike, Tilly, Saru, Philippa etc

Michael has her support network too.

The examples you've speculated could just as easily be the reasons they knew. We've only just been introduced to the notion. The explanations can come later. This won the the last time we visit Nivar.

An enjoyable scene indeed, one that I hope has a significant payoff.

I think we must agree to disagree on this.

I particularly disagree with your analysis of the cause and effect of Gul Dukat's role in DS9 - but this is a Discovery thread, so we don't need to take that any further.

As for Burnham's Mary Sue factor, I don't want the conversation to become circular, so shall we just leave it at agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

It's still better than Picard

 

[Flash525]

And speaking of, I'm surprised we've not encountered a 31st Century Klingon yet, as they were members of the Federation during the Battle of Prycon V.

Then again, post burn, it would be reasonable to conclude that the Klingons of this generation have reverted back to their warrior wars, especially if they're isolated with nobody to keep them in check.

Still, you'd have thought Burnham and co would've been curious enough to ask, considering all their involvement in her life.

 

[Batmannerism]

And speaking of, I'm surprised we've not encountered a 31st Century Klingon yet, as they were members of the Federation during the Battle of Prycon V.

Then again, post burn, it would be reasonable to conclude that the Klingons of this generation have reverted back to their warrior wars, especially if they're isolated with nobody to keep them in check.

Still, you'd have thought Burnham and co would've been curious enough to ask, considering all their involvement in her life.

The fascination with Klingon male genitalia, that has arisen after Discovery is ....well odd, it certainly makes the transformation surgery that Ash underwent a lot more disturbing when you stop to think about it for a moment.

Anyway, let's hope there are more explosions and less debates this week.

 

[Thome216]

I had to pause the episode and just digest that moment when Saru offered the Number One position (Acting) to a green, socially bumbling ensign... I understand, they're all Star Fleet and more a 'family,' but there are at least a dozen more capable, higher ranked officers on board who can fill that position. We're talking second in command of the entire ship.
In the real world, most of them would be, rightly, upset that they were being jumped over for a command position by an ensign. The most believable part of the whole thing was Stamets telling her that it would be 'weird' taking orders from her. You can bet that more than half of them would have loved to get bumped up in the command chain, and I'm actually disappointed that it wasn't Nilson. It may have been a quick line, but Saru put her in charge once, which shows confidence in her abilities. And so far, the character doesn't seem to have a nailed down spot on the ship, so becoming No 1 would have been nice.
For me, this also calls into questions Saru's ability to command. This is his third mistake in judgment concerning command of the Discovery. First was putting Michael into the No1 position after she had been away from the ship for a year (her time). The second was not going to Vance about the mission to recover a black box, and now a third by offering Tilly such an advanced position when she is clearly not ready, or mature enough, for it.
If I was Vance I would be seriously considering changing who was commanding what is now one of Star Fleets most advanced ships.
Being the tip of the spear that Discovery usually is, is not a place for learning on the job. There is a reason people must progress through the ranks, proving themselves every step of the way in order to show that they are capable of handling the tasks set for them.
And yeah, the writers will probably write a scene where Tilly 'saves the day,' but that is just a little bit too unrealistic.

 

[Dr.]

I had to pause the episode and just digest that moment when Saru offered the Number One position (Acting) to a green, socially bumbling ensign...

As I understand it, a first officer position is (theoretically) independent of rank. And this can be a useful designation if there’s (say) more than one full commander among the officer/command complement. Likewise, it clarifies the second-in-command status if there happens to be (say) a doctor or engineer aboard who has the rank of captain. But as a practical matter, the FO would almost always be of relatively high rank (commander or lieutenant commander). So an ensign FO —when higher ranked officers are available for the job— strikes me as highly implausible.

At the very least, Saru should have promoted Tilly to lieutenant junior grade.

 

[Flash525]

As much as Tilly doesn't have the experience or knowledge for the position, but need we be reminded that this is a temporary position - Saru made that quite clear.

I figure Saru knows he can trust Tilly, and so until he finds someone more suited to the job, she's best suited for the role.

 

[Thome216]

This makes Tilly effectively second in command. Even as an Acting, it really should have been one with far more experience and years in the chain of command. Even though it is temporary it should have gone to one of the more experienced officers because who knows what's going to happen in the next week, much less the next minute, and you want someone with not just experience but the ability to act without hesitation.
And the person chosen for the spot should have been someone seriously considered for a permanent position with Acting merely on a trial basis, or even permanent from the start. Again, even for an Acting Number One, there are far more experienced officers to choose from.

But that's as it is. This might be for an episode or two before Michael is once again the Number One, as Saru could be just giving her time to get her head on straight.

 

[Flash525]

But this isn't about who's more qualified, it's about who Saru feels is best for the position at this moment in time, and quite frankly, with everything the crew has gone through lately, love her or hate her, Tilly is perfectly suited to the role of inspiring people and lifting spirits.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

But this isn't about who's more qualified, it's about who Saru feels is best for the position at this moment in time, and quite frankly, with everything the crew has gone through lately, love her or hate her, Tilly is perfectly suited to the role of inspiring people and lifting spirits.

Like a female Neelix ?

 

[Flash525]

Like a female Neelix ?

Thankfully Chakotay was never absent long enough for Janeway to even contemplate that idea.

Surely Harry would've been next in line though?

 

[Dark Raven]

Imagine the likes of Riker, Data, Worf, Troi, LaForge or even Beverley Crusher taking orders from Wesley Crusher.

At least Detmer had more to do this episode with piloting the ship and attacking. But they need to give Nilsson something to do.

Although I'm surprised Discovery didn't somehow manage to beam Burnham back up to pilot the ship instead of Detmer.

 

[Batmannerism]

But this isn't about who's more qualified, it's about who Saru feels is best for the position at this moment in time, and quite frankly, with everything the crew has gone through lately, love her or hate her, Tilly is perfectly suited to the role of inspiring people and lifting spirits.

I agree. Also Tilly is smarter and has the right sense of duty. I'm on team Tilly !

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Random thought, what I think is not working very well is the format of the show. It's not an episode of the week type of show (like TOS, TNG, VOY etc were) with a story arc in the background, Disco tells a story arc first (like The Expense, Lost in Space) but somehow is not good at it.
Maybe Star Trek shows aren't mean to be like that.

 

[Teelie]

DS9 did arcs and it did them well. I think the issue with Discovery is they themselves are not sure what they want to do. This has gone from a TOS prequel to a story involving the mirror universe to the greatest threat ever to the galaxy to solving that and rushing nearly 1,000 years into the future where they can mess around without repercussions, only they don't seem to have a solid foundation yet.

 

[Dark Raven]

DS9 had the best arc storytelling of all the Star Trek series while balancing stories of the week too. And it also managed to develop all the minor supporting characters as well. Not everything was about Sisko or Kira or Odo etc. You'd have full stories about Rom, Nog, Leeta, Vic Fontaine, Garak, Gul Dukat, Gul Damar, Vedek Winn etc, none of whom were listed in the opening credits. They were all well developed.

If Discovery were more like that we'd know a lot more about characters like Nilsson, Detmer, and all the other bridge crew whose names I still don't know.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

They should just rename the 3rd Trek film "Star Trek III: The Search For Burnham's Brother".

Or for a tongue twister, have that 3rd season TOS episode called "Burnham's Brother's Brain."

Bah, you bash but like me (I bash far less) you still watch
Hey, it's still better than Picard !

 

[Flash525]

At least Detmer had more to do this episode with piloting the ship and attacking. But they need to give Nilsson something to do.

Although I'm surprised Discovery didn't somehow manage to beam Burnham back up to pilot the ship instead of Detmer.

Uhh, she was on the plant with Book; beneath that force field?

Did anyone catch what that Andorian said to Tilly? I rewound the scene twice, and still didn't get it.

Random thought, what I think is not working very well is the format of the show. It's not an episode of the week type of show (like TOS, TNG, VOY etc were) with a story arc in the background, Disco tells a story arc first (like The Expense, Lost in Space) but somehow is not good at it.
Maybe Star Trek shows aren't mean to be like that.

I'm glad about this. I honestly don't think a Trek show should be EotW with the audience of today, and I am genuinely concerned that Strange New Worlds is launching with that theme in mind.

Discovery might not have it nailed down, but they're going a good enough job for me.

DS9 did arcs and it did them well. I think the issue with Discovery is they themselves are not sure what they want to do. This has gone from a TOS prequel to a story involving the mirror universe to the greatest threat ever to the galaxy to solving that and rushing nearly 1,000 years into the future where they can mess around without repercussions, only they don't seem to have a solid foundation yet.

I'd concur with this assessment. As much as I've enjoyed S1 and S2, taking into account we're now in the future, I do wonder what the need for the prequel years were even for. Couldn't they have just started a show a decade or two after Voyager/Nemesis?

 

[Dark Raven]

Bah, you bash but like me (I bash far less) you still watch
Hey, it's still better than Picard !

I watch because we're in a drought of shows to watch right now, and other times when there's nothing else to watch. But if something better is on that will take priority.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

I watch because we're in a drought of shows to watch right now, and other times when there's nothing else to watch. But if something better is on that will take priority.

You are splitting by two the hair I don't have anymore, we're still watching
Even in starving days, I don't keep watching shows with nothing I like in them.
Disco : as I said before, I can watch almost everything SF with good SFX....plus it's Star Trek.

 

[Batmannerism]

DS9 had the best arc storytelling of all the Star Trek series while balancing stories of the week too. And it also managed to develop all the minor supporting characters as well. Not everything was about Sisko or Kira or Odo etc. You'd have full stories about Rom, Nog, Leeta, Vic Fontaine, Garak, Gul Dukat, Gul Damar, Vedek Winn etc, none of whom were listed in the opening credits. They were all well developed.

If Discovery were more like that we'd know a lot more about characters like Nilsson, Detmer, and all the other bridge crew whose names I still don't know.

Yeah, DS9 was a masterclass in balancing a huge overarching story with many threads, and allowing individual characters scope to develop.

E.g. Nog starts as a selfish, illiterate street kid, and finishes as a Starfleet officer/war veteran
who overcomes PTSD and plays a part in pivotal events.

 

[Batmannerism]

This week's episode of Disco was a lot more to my taste - bad guys, alien monsters, fist fights, spaceships blowing stuff up. Nice. My only nitpick is " if the people of Kwejian have empathic superpowers that can affect the locusts, why didn't they think of trying to amplify them to drive the locusts away themselves? Why would only Burnham come up with that?" But I don't want to ruin an otherwise enjoyable episode which was devoid of ridiculously convenient warrior-nun mother/lawyers and crying.

Janet Kidder's Osyraa is a far more effective villain than Georgiou whose constant threats and insults are just kind of tiresome - and obvious, as a defence mechanism. Enjoyed how she dealt with Tolor, he had it coming.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

I thought this newest episode was alright, but I don't know man I'm still kind of losing interest in this season honestly. The structure of it just feels messy IMO and yeah the amount of overdramatic scenes do sort of drain the fun out of the episodes even if I didn't think they were badly acted at all.

It might sound superficial, but the reason I got on board with this show in the first place is because of the nice balance the previous seasons have had when it comes to giving you all the space/creature action your expecting on top of likable enough characters and that seems to be really lacking this season for some reason.

It says something when the only true enjoyment I have been getting out of this season are pretty much any of the scenes with the Trans Worms which are god damn horrifying and I kind of wish they were utilized in this show more as a genuine threat no matter gentile or peaceful they want to make them seem.

 

[Dark Raven]

This week's episode of Disco was a lot more to my taste - bad guys, alien monsters, fist fights, spaceships blowing stuff up. Nice. My only nitpick is " if the people of Kwejian have empathic superpowers that can affect the locusts, why didn't they think of trying to amplify them to drive the locusts away themselves? Why would only Burnham come up with that?" But I don't want to ruin an otherwise enjoyable episode which was devoid of ridiculously convenient warrior-nun mother/lawyers and crying.

Janet Kidder's Osyraa is a far more effective villain than Georgiou whose constant threats and insults are just kind of tiresome - and obvious, as a defence mechanism. Enjoyed how she dealt with Tolor, he had it coming.

Well who else would manage to do that? It's not like anyone else is competent.