Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 6

For me Star Trek Into Darkness was a very well made movie. The action was great and the story beats moved the story forward. As a movie its a solid 7/10 as a trek movie its 3/10.

My problems where

1. Women characters where completely wasted (This is actually a problem with most Hollywood movies in the pasts few years. No strong female characters). They are either just eye candy or someones love interest (who is constantly bickering..we need more characters like Ellen Ripley)

2. Rehash of old scenes (Joss Whedon said it the best in this article
"A movie has to be complete within itself; it can't just build off the first one or play variations. You know that thing in Temple of Doom where they revisit the shooting trick? ... That's what you don't want. And I feel that's what all of culture is becoming -- it's becoming that moment."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-r...b_3824193.html)

3. The plot devices that just don't feel right. Like "magical blood", that has no explanation of how and why (the blood works on tribbles too, why is he even testing on a dead tribble. ) it just felt like they added this is so they could have the climax at the end and then say it all right we have this Magical Blood to solve all our problems. The Torpedoes was another one . number of torpedoes vs the number of Khan's crew. no one noticed the coincidence?

I think for everybody who didn't like the movie, we need to stop supporting them. So don't buy the blu ray or watch the next one. We as fans did that with the TNG movies and the tv show Enterprise. Basically indicating that you are making crap and need to fix it.

The best part of Trek is how they intertwine space adventure with a social statement (philosophical or political). This movie is nether. If I want action and awesome popcorn movies, that's what I expect from Avengers and Man of Steel....not Star Trek.
Click to expand...

Picard Sisko said:
Its not like the movie made a statement on 9/11 and corruption in our government.
Click to expand...

Actually that's the thing I was starting to enjoy movie in the beginning. Khan made a great speech. And you really felt sympathy for him. You really felt his mistreatment and misuse of his people. But then it all just turned into a lie and he was just a black and white bad guy. You no longer felt bad for him because you couldn't trust him. That was the problem (Just a personal opinion) the victor writes the history. So to do a 911 statement , You need to convince me that the villain truly thinks he is doing the right thing in his mind. New Khan did the opposite for me, he had a ship and Kirk's trust and then he turns on him....why? He had no reason (only to have a great action scene).

That's what works so great for other Villains like Zod (not a great movie but you could see his reasoning, behind his choices to save his people and he never let that go ), Loki (he wanted power and respect), original khan (death of his people and his wife), Skyfall ( can't remember his name but he did it because he wanted to show M your actions have consequences ) and Joker (proving that everybody is capable of crossing the line ). Unfortunately with the new Khan, they where on the right track to make a great villain with sympathy but he just ended up feeling like a plane bad guy (no grey)with no care for his people.
 
Target has the Blu-Ray/DVD for $19.99 and a pretty cool looking exclusive cover.
 
I'm probably going to get the target version then
 
The Target version is the best way to go, I don't actually have a Target store where I am so Im having a family member getting the Target one for me and Im getting them the standard version for them in return. :D
 
I can't believe that the commentary is an iTunes exclusive...
 
hunteri said:
Actually that's the thing I was starting to enjoy movie in the beginning. Khan made a great speech. And you really felt sympathy for him. You really felt his mistreatment and misuse of his people. But then it all just turned into a lie and he was just a black and white bad guy. You no longer felt bad for him because you couldn't trust him. That was the problem (Just a personal opinion) the victor writes the history. So to do a 911 statement , You need to convince me that the villain truly thinks he is doing the right thing in his mind. New Khan did the opposite for me, he had a ship and Kirk's trust and then he turns on him....why? He had no reason (only to have a great action scene).

That's what works so great for other Villains like Zod (not a great movie but you could see his reasoning, behind his choices to save his people and he never let that go ), Loki (he wanted power and respect), original khan (death of his people and his wife), Skyfall ( can't remember his name but he did it because he wanted to show M your actions have consequences ) and Joker (proving that everybody is capable of crossing the line ). Unfortunately with the new Khan, they where on the right track to make a great villain with sympathy but he just ended up feeling like a plane bad guy (no grey)with no care for his people.
Click to expand...

The thing is all of your issues with this movie can be applied to the series and the other Star Trek movies.

1) Women misused??? Uhura in the original series didn't do much. In fact a strong female character in Star Trek wasn't created until Janeway.

2) Rehash of old scenes? How about rehash of old episodes. TMP was a rehash of an episode. The whole first season of TNG was rehashing. How many episodes can have a plot involving the holo deck taking over and going crazy?

3)Yes there were plot devices in the other movies also. Spock puts his mind in McCoy in Star Trek 2 and no one blinks an eye? How many times was Spock close to death in the the original series and this was never mentioned?

I think if people were to stop looking at these movies like they were the Gospel and just movies they wouldn't have such a problem. These movies are made to be entertainment...not to be poured over like a scientific thesis and examined. The worst thing about being a fan is the other fans. In no universe is STID the worst Star Trek movie ever. That movie is Star Trek 5.
Is STID a perfect movie...no but if we applied the same critical eye to the other series that we do to this movie we'd see Star Trek isn't perfect. Things happen with little to no reason. Klingons change, they are about honor and no one blinks and eye.

I get that people hate these movies....people hate change but at least give the movies a chance before you condemn it.
if it helps think of the JJ-verse as Ultimate Star Trek. Another universe that runs alongside the prime universe.
 
Massively agree with everything roach typed. Also....

Let's just poop on Star Trek 5!!
 
roach said:
The thing is all of your issues with this movie can be applied to the series and the other Star Trek movies.

1) Women misused??? Uhura in the original series didn't do much. In fact a strong female character in Star Trek wasn't created until Janeway.

2) Rehash of old scenes? How about rehash of old episodes. TMP was a rehash of an episode. The whole first season of TNG was rehashing. How many episodes can have a plot involving the holo deck taking over and going crazy?

3)Yes there were plot devices in the other movies also. Spock puts his mind in McCoy in Star Trek 2 and no one blinks an eye? How many times was Spock close to death in the the original series and this was never mentioned?

I think if people were to stop looking at these movies like they were the Gospel and just movies they wouldn't have such a problem. These movies are made to be entertainment...not to be poured over like a scientific thesis and examined. The worst thing about being a fan is the other fans. In no universe is STID the worst Star Trek movie ever. That movie is Star Trek 5.
Is STID a perfect movie...no but if we applied the same critical eye to the other series that we do to this movie we'd see Star Trek isn't perfect. Things happen with little to no reason. Klingons change, they are about honor and no one blinks and eye.

I get that people hate these movies....people hate change but at least give the movies a chance before you condemn it.
if it helps think of the JJ-verse as Ultimate Star Trek. Another universe that runs alongside the prime universe.
Click to expand...

I've been saying this for ages.

Star Trek never was this elite hard sci-fi show only forward thinking people can enjoy like Trekkies make it out to be. The original series, for the most part, is an action/adventure show. But that is a baaaaaad thing! I'm not saying that Trek isn't smart and well written. It is. But it's messages and allegory are never anything you can't figure on the spot. It's meanings and messages are all right there on the surface, easy to see. The original is no more deep than say, The Twilight Zone. It is never above flights of fancy and plot devices.
Trek has always had subtext and often it is good subtext, but it's not this elusively brainy think-piece.
 
Originally Posted by roach
The thing is all of your issues with this movie can be applied to the series and the other Star Trek movies.

1) Women misused??? Uhura in the original series didn't do much. In fact a strong female character in Star Trek wasn't created until Janeway.

2) Rehash of old scenes? How about rehash of old episodes. TMP was a rehash of an episode. The whole first season of TNG was rehashing. How many episodes can have a plot involving the holo deck taking over and going crazy?

3)Yes there were plot devices in the other movies also. Spock puts his mind in McCoy in Star Trek 2 and no one blinks an eye? How many times was Spock close to death in the the original series and this was never mentioned?

I think if people were to stop looking at these movies like they were the Gospel and just movies they wouldn't have such a problem. These movies are made to be entertainment...not to be poured over like a scientific thesis and examined. The worst thing about being a fan is the other fans. In no universe is STID the worst Star Trek movie ever. That movie is Star Trek 5.
Is STID a perfect movie...no but if we applied the same critical eye to the other series that we do to this movie we'd see Star Trek isn't perfect. Things happen with little to no reason. Klingons change, they are about honor and no one blinks and eye.

I get that people hate these movies....people hate change but at least give the movies a chance before you condemn it.
if it helps think of the JJ-verse as Ultimate Star Trek. Another universe that runs alongside the prime universe.
Click to expand...

GremlinZilla89 said:
I've been saying this for ages.
Click to expand...
GremlinZilla89 said:
Star Trek never was this elite hard sci-fi show only forward thinking people can enjoy like Trekkies make it out to be. The original series, for the most part, is an action/adventure show. But that is a baaaaaad thing! I'm not saying that Trek isn't smart and well written. It is. But it's messages and allegory are never anything you can't figure on the spot. It's meanings and messages are all right there on the surface, easy to see. The original is no more deep than say, The Twilight Zone. It is never above flights of fancy and plot devices.
Trek has always had subtext and often it is good subtext, but it's not this elusively brainy think-piece.
Click to expand...

To be honest i will be the first person to admit that 70% of Star Trek is boring and redundant (this goes for Star Wars as well). But there is a expectation i have with Star Trek and that is forward thinking. This goes for the story and the characters. You want to see change with the characters, grow over the story as it progress.

1. Treating Women as just objects (or emotional messes) is just shameful in todays time. In Movies or TV not just in Star Trek. It was just sad they didn't use the 2 female cast more importantly. In the first movie Uhura had a very small role but she was creative and outside the box thinking. In this movie she was just bickering the entire time (dont get me wrong it was funny but the more i thought about it afterwords, it just didn't feel right for the character). It doesn't matter if in the past Women roles where not significant but in today day and age we shouldn't be watching stereotypes.

2. Agreed with you on this one. I just wish they had done it better. It was just that the
Magic blood
took away from that scene for me, it didnt feel like the stakes where that high. And if you are going to give homage then I am going to compare to the original.

3. The plot devices for me where just weak. Nothing to do with Star Trek or not. It was just poor story telling plain and simple. I am not a script writer, and i am sure its very hard but it was just weak.

Also my argument is i have a expectation from Star Trek (I haven't seen all of the original or TNG...I started with DS9 and Voyager). But I expect progress in storytelling and in character (and they both don't need to be told together). They had a black Commander (Sisko one of my faves). and later a female Captain. That shows progressive thinking over time. My Star Trek needs to prove to other movies that its ok to make something different and unique not just redo what is done in other movies (or past).

Star Trek 5 is a horrible story but character Dev was awesome (the "pain
scene...i can never forget it). Star Trek into Darkness, Spock's character dev story was awesome but everything else was weak (including Kirk's story...redo from the first movie). Its like the movie Promethious, when i went to watch it, i had a expectation (because of Blade Runner and Alien). Scott making another Science Fiction but we all know how that turned out. Visually Amazing but story was complete garbage.

Also i loved the First JJ Star Trek movie. The first 10 mins with Kirk's Father is one of the best scenes in Star Trek history. The movie as a whole was fun and progressive, the new one for me just felt backwards.
 
1) Yes this movie treated women as objects but that is not as problem with this movie as it is more an issue with the industry. However Star Trek has always been about Kirk and Spock and to a lesser point McCoy...mostly to the detriment of the other characters. These movies have given Uhuru more to do then the series and the original movies.

2) They were not weak....Khan's healing blood was set up in the beginning of the film with the Star Fleet officer. It's not like it came out of no where like Spock's Katra or the healing planet or slingshotting around the sun will send you back in time.
 
roach said:
1) Yes this movie treated women as objects but that is not as problem with this movie as it is more an issue with the industry. However Star Trek has always been about Kirk and Spock and to a lesser point McCoy...mostly to the detriment of the other characters. These movies have given Uhuru more to do then the series and the original movies.

2) They were not weak....Khan's healing blood was set up in the beginning of the film with the Star Fleet officer. It's not like it came out of no where like Spock's Katra or the healing planet or slingshotting around the sun will send you back in time.
Click to expand...


1. Exactly...i think that's my point we shouldn't stand for this in movies. I think i am going to stop supporting movies that objectify women like this. Like i said it doesn't matter what past Trek has done. They had a great start with the first one where i really thought they where going to make it feel progressive for future trek. Why does star trek have to be only about Kirk and Spock, the other characters are just as important if you make them, its all up to the creators.

2. I think in the end its just a personal taste..for me it didnt work. I thought it was a copout. healing blood, works definitely, but bring back from the afterlife blood...not for me...it takes you away from the suspense of danger. I guess i was younger when i watched the other treks so i didnt mind these things( Spock's Katra or the healing planet or slingshotting around the sun).
 
While I liked the Original series because of the casting, design, and ideas, I was not fond of the show's war-mongering and sexism (one of the most glaring examples is when Uhara said, "Captain, I'm scared!" in "The City on the Edge of Forever"). With the Into Darkness, I felt Abrams corrected these faults. The female characters were not eye candy and actually helped out - Marcus working on the warhead, Uhara going on the away mission and helping take down Khan-unlike in the preceding media.

Edit:

On a purely disconnected note, I have to register my irritation with the commentary being an iTunes exclusive. I am clinging to the desperate hope that it will come with the iTunes copy attached to my Bluray/DVD/Digital Combo pack, but, I am realist...
 
Yes, thank you! I actually thought the female characters served a purpose besides sexual reasons.
 
hunteri said:
2. I think in the end its just a personal taste..for me it didnt work. I thought it was a copout. healing blood, works definitely, but bring back from the afterlife blood...not for me...it takes you away from the suspense of danger. I guess i was younger when i watched the other treks so i didnt mind these things( Spock's Katra or the healing planet or slingshotting around the sun).
Click to expand...

I can see that. However from a screenwriting point of view the healing blood was set up from the start.
 
roach said:
2) They were not weak....Khan's healing blood was set up in the beginning of the film with the Star Fleet officer. It's not like it came out of no where like Spock's Katra or the healing planet or slingshotting around the sun will send you back in time.
Click to expand...

Maybe I missed something watching, but during the fight scene between Spock and Khan, doesn't the Enterprise have the rest of Khan's crew still? And wouldn't they have the same genetically engineered blood? I'm asking because I don't remember if they said something to where Khan's blood was specifically different than the others of his crew, and if not why not just grab some of their blood?
 
So which place do you think has the best exclusive? Both Best Buy and Target have the blu ray/dvd/ digital copy listed as 19.99. I heard Best Buy has an exclusive bonus disc with behind the scenes features, and so does Target from what I heard. Which one are you guys going for?
 
The Navigator said:
Maybe I missed something watching, but during the fight scene between Spock and Khan, doesn't the Enterprise have the rest of Khan's crew still? And wouldn't they have the same genetically engineered blood? I'm asking because I don't remember if they said something to where Khan's blood was specifically different than the others of his crew, and if not why not just grab some of their blood?
Click to expand...
Nothing was said in the movie but in the novelization (I know, I know, novelizations aren't always considered canon) Carol actually asks Bones why not use another member of Khan's crew:
“Carol gazing at him intently. “What about bringing one of the other members of Khan’s crew out of cryosleep? Even if they don’t revive*.*.*. properly*.*.*. it’s not their opinions we need.”
McCoy looked toward the prone form of Kirk lying motionless on the gurney, where he continued to be prepped and monitored by the team of medical technicians.
“Too risky. I think this might work with Khan. I don’t know how much alike he and his crew are, and I don’t have time to find out. If there’s even the slightest unresolved difference between their respective physiologies, then we might be doing nothing but wasting our time and what little, if any, Jim has left. And I have to have Khan alive, because I don’t know what death might do to his body*.*.*. or the viability of its respective components.” He shook his head in dismay. “It’s Khan—or nothing.”

Excerpt From: Alan Dean Foster. “Star Trek Into Darkness.” Gallery Books. iBooks.
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