The All-Encompassing AQUAMAN Movie Thread - Part 7

[KRYPTON INC.]

Currently reading that actually, and they could incorporate some cool story elements from it. I don't think the whole Arthur/Dolphin/Mera love triangle/thing will really work here though. What would you like to see from that run incorporated into film?

Some aspect of Kordax, the superstitious nature of Atlantean culture and I think delving into Arthur's time post Vulko training him in the film so his "walkabout" phase.

JL let us know he was out there doing good things even if not a "super hero". Could use some of Time And Tide material to fill that gap in.

 

[kguillou]

I’m actually happy Johns talked Wan into keeping Manta. He was one of the big highlights of the film for me and I would’ve been disappointed if we didn’t get to see him suited up and going toe to toe with Arthur.

 

[Micromind]

I’m actually happy Johns talked Wan into keeping Manta. He was one of the big highlights of the film for me and I would’ve been disappointed if we didn’t get to see him suited up and going toe to toe with Arthur.

Manta was always an integral part of the story..

SPOILERS !
Manta was working with Orm to create an imaginary threat from surface dwellers (Manta got control of some submarine that attacked Orm and King Nereus), also Orm hired Manta to kill Arthur and Mera, in addition this movie shows Black Manta's origins, to set him up as the main baddie for the sequel.

Another important fact is that Arthur learns the value of mercy which he didn't show for Manta's dad making him his arch enemy but later on he forgives Orm, which is a part of Arthur's character progression.

This sets him apart from other Atlanteans (It's worth noting that at first, Arthur tells Mera " if Orm attacks, I'll treat him the same way your people treated her (Arthur's Mother), with no mercy" than afterwards when he is fighting with Orm, "Orm:Mercy is not our way.” Aquaman responds: “I’m not one of you”.

I see no reason why Wan would want to exclude Black Manta, after all they cast an actor for it got his suit ready and were filming the Sicily rooftop chase scene soon after the shooting began.

I'm highly skeptical to whatever that dude said in that recent interview, why would Geoff Johns need to convince Wan to keep Manta scenes ? Wan knows those scenes were part of the story.

 

[Micromind]

Author of this article makes some interesting observations which I was not aware of -

And his mother explains that Orm was simply given bad advice by his father, who taught him that “there were two worlds, the land and the sea,” when in fact “There is only one world.” As it happens, One World (1943) is the title of a 1943 book by Wendell Willkie that significantly influenced movements for international cooperation after World War II, and some cautious filmmakers might feel it is controversial to argue that we should try to make peace with our enemies instead of defeating them.

What it is saying is not profound or deep, then, but Aquaman does qualify as one of the rare contemporary films, like Wonder Woman, that has the courage to say something, and it should be commended for doing so.

 

[kguillou]

Manta was always an integral part of the story..

Spoiler

Manta was working with Orm to create an imaginary threat from surface dwellers (Manta got control of some submarine that attacked Orm and King Nereus), also Orm hired Manta to kill Arthur and Mera, in addition this movie shows Black Manta's origins, to set him up as the main baddie for the sequel.

Another important fact is that Arthur learns the value of mercy which he didn't show for Manta's dad making him his arch enemy but later on he forgives Orm, which is a part of Arthur's character progression.

This sets him apart from other Atlanteans (It's worth noting that at first, Arthur tells Mera " if Orm attacks, I'll treat him the same way your people treated her (Arthur's Mother), with no mercy" than afterwards when he is fighting with Orm, "Orm:Mercy is not our way.” Aquaman responds: “I’m not one of you”.

I see no reason why Wan would want to exclude Black Manta, after all they cast an actor for it got his suit ready and were filming the Sicily rooftop chase scene soon after the shooting began.

I'm highly skeptical to whatever that dude said in that recent interview, why would Geoff Johns need to convince Wan to keep Manta scenes ? Wan knows those scenes were part of the story.

Im actually listening to the podcast now and I’m now skeptical too because the same guy is also saying that its now “common knowledge” that Aquaman saved Clark from the oil rig in MoS. That is 100% fanfic BS. That was fans reading too much into a scene that had nothing to do with Aquaman.

 

[Micromind]

Im actually listening to the podcast now and I’m now skeptical too because the same guy is also saying that its now “common knowledge” that Aquaman saved Clark from the oil rig in MoS. That is 100% fanfic BS. That was fans reading too much into a scene that had nothing to do with Aquaman.

Yeah, he says many things that anyone can know if one visits fan forums (various fan theories) and listens to interviews James Wan has given to various media outlets plus rumors that were circulating some months ago (Snyder's five movie plan etc.)

I have difficulty in buying everything he's saying at face value, except some of his marketing experiences, even those look like he is making some stuff-up.

 

[dhandler01]

Oh lord...if that was the case (Aquaman saving Clark) woudnt he have mentioned it in Justice League at some point? That fanfic BS isnt even creative and again is Snyderphiles trying to show he still has his fingers in everything. Even if that had been the case it has been retconned out since no one seems to know about it.

 

[Micromind]

Oh lord...if that was the case (Aquaman saving Clark) woudnt he have mentioned it in Justice League at some point? That fanfic BS isnt even creative and again is Snyderphiles trying to show he still has his fingers in everything. Even if that had been the case it has been retconned out since no one seems to know about it.

That guy is full of second-hand info (some fan-fic, some from interviews Wan gave, some from theories about Snyder's five movie plans) he gathered from various sources and passing it off as an "insider knowledge".

 

[kguillou]

I feel like during that 3 year stretch between MoS and BvS threre were SO many rumors and fan theories that at some point fanfic blended with reality. Lol

 

[Micromind]

People are so gullible these days.

 

[CBMNerd]

Not sure if some of ya'll actually listen to the whole podcast or not or just read that article....but if you listen to the whole podcast.....that guy.....he sounds pretty legit. I mean he does all these test screenings for WB films and present the raw data to WB of what the test screening audiences like or dislike about the film.....so WB / the producers / director can go back and re-cut or add re-shoots......for the next cut of their films. Basically, he is involved from the 1st rough cut of the film.....right down to the final cut of the film before it is locked and released it theaters.

So I'm not exactly sure why some of you are skeptical ?

 

[CBMNerd]

Manta was always an integral part of the story..

Spoiler

Manta was working with Orm to create an imaginary threat from surface dwellers (Manta got control of some submarine that attacked Orm and King Nereus), also Orm hired Manta to kill Arthur and Mera, in addition this movie shows Black Manta's origins, to set him up as the main baddie for the sequel.

Another important fact is that Arthur learns the value of mercy which he didn't show for Manta's dad making him his arch enemy but later on he forgives Orm, which is a part of Arthur's character progression.

This sets him apart from other Atlanteans (It's worth noting that at first, Arthur tells Mera " if Orm attacks, I'll treat him the same way your people treated her (Arthur's Mother), with no mercy" than afterwards when he is fighting with Orm, "Orm:Mercy is not our way.” Aquaman responds: “I’m not one of you”.

I see no reason why Wan would want to exclude Black Manta, after all they cast an actor for it got his suit ready and were filming the Sicily rooftop chase scene soon after the shooting began.

I'm highly skeptical to whatever that dude said in that recent interview, why would Geoff Johns need to convince Wan to keep Manta scenes ? Wan knows those scenes were part of the story.

Actually, in the script yes.....he is an integral part of the story........but if you listen to the podcast again.....he said that a lot of the test screening audience felt that the story is too convoluted.....too many characters + plot points + lots of worldbuilding.....so some suggested that maybe Black Manta should be reserve for the sequel where his character can have more flesh out development .....and James actually did consider that possibility....till Geoff Johns tells him to not cut out Black Manta.

And sure enough.....when you read some of the criticism of this movie by some of the RT approved critics......they said exactly what the test audience said........too many characters......too many plot points resulting in the film being an unfocused and bloated mess ( I don't necessary agree with this though)

Remember when it comes to superhero solo movies....... a lot of people are used to the more streamline Marvel approach of focusing on maybe just a small handful of characters and not juggling multiple plot points ..... so if you try to cram in too much.......not matter how well it turns out.......some will say it's a "mess"

 

[Micromind]

Actually, in the script yes.....he is an integral part of the story........but if you listen to the podcast again.....he said that a lot of the test screening audience felt that the story is too convoluted.....too many characters + plot points + lots of worldbuilding.....so some suggested that maybe Black Manta should be reserve for the sequel where his character can have more flesh out development .....and James actually did consider that possibility....till Geoff Johns tells him to not cut out Black Manta

As I said, the test-screenings are done to gauge audience reactions but ultimately it's upto the director to take the call, whether to keep a scene / character in the movie or not, but in this case, as Black Manta was integral part of the movie, including Aquaman's character arc (which cannot be removed, at the most they could have cut some of his dialogues, thereby reducing his screen-time), where he decides to show mercy (to Orm) something which Black Manta and Atlanteans are not capable of showing.

Also, the test-audience constitute only a small sample-size (when compared to Global audiences), as is the case with this movie the test audiences were in favor of removing BM's scenes whereas most people around the world seem to have liked his part in the story. Also, I have difficulty in believing some of the things said in that podcast, for example, Geoff Johns giving directions to James Wan, he can advise but he cannot not order a director what to do.

In the end, I am no industry insider, so if someone wants to believe some of the things that were said in that podcast, more-power to you, but I remain skeptical.

 

[CBMNerd]

As I said, the test-screenings are done to gauge audience reactions but ultimately it's upto the director to take the call, whether to keep a scene / character in the movie or not, but in this case, as Black Manta was integral part of the movie, including Aquaman's character arc (which cannot be removed, at the most they could have cut some of his dialogues, thereby reducing his screen-time), where he decides to show mercy (to Orm) something which Black Manta and Atlanteans are not capable of showing.

Also, the test-audience constitute only a small sample-size (when compared to Global audiences), as is the case with this movie the test audiences were in favor of removing BM's scenes whereas most people around the world seem to have liked his part in the story. Also, I have difficulty in believing some of the things said in that podcast, for example, Geoff Johns giving directions to James Wan, he can advise but he cannot not order a director what to do.

In the end, I am no industry insider, so if someone wants to believe some of the things that were said in that podcast, more-power to you, but I remain skeptical.

Well Geoff Johns was still in charge of the DCEU along with Diane Nelson at that time when Aquaman went into pre-production.....so not surprising if he has more power than most people realized. Also....I specifically remember an interview where Geoff Johns says he was one of the people involved in bringing Joss Whedon in to re-do Justice League......that itself should tell you a lot

 

[CBMNerd]

Geoff Johns, David Leslie and Will Beall Talk ‘Aquaman’, Creating Atlantis, Black Manta, Mera & More

Can you talk about Black Manta and his storyline with King Orm?


David Leslie: We all love Black Manta. How can you do the Aquaman, but you can’t do without Black Manta? Impossible. James was very specific about making his look very faithful to the comic.

Geoff Johns: It’s impossible. It’s like doing a Batman movie without the Batmobile. You just shouldn’t do it. Some people were like, you can’t do the big helmet. It’s like saying Joker without the smile!

Will Beall: There was a Saturday morning cartoon called, Challenge of the Super Friends. Black Manta was voiced by that guy who played Lurch. Yeah. It was sort of like a pre-Darth Vader voice, you know, and even as a kid, I thought this guy is really cool.

Geoff Johns: There was a moment when the script was really going and James texted me or emailed me, and said Black Manta’s story may be too big for this movie. What do you think? And I didn’t reply, I just went to his office and I said, ‘Black Manta has to be in the movie.’ He was like, ‘I know!!!’

David Leslie: My stepdaughter is world’s biggest Black Manta fan; like she wants to know why there isn’t a Black Manta movie?

Geoff Johns: There should be a Black Manta movie. That’d be a cool movie.

David Leslie: I remember (James Wan) asked me that same question. (Sarcastically) I was like, dude, I’m going to be a deep sh*t at home if you cut Black Manta out of this movie.

Link : Geoff Johns, David Leslie and Will Beall Talk ‘Aquaman’, Creating Atlantis, Black Manta, Mera & More

 

[Micromind]

So that was in the initial script writing stages, when Wan had some reservations about including Black Manta's story in the movie, not after they shot that movie and screened it to test audiences (where some test audiences thought BM's story made the movie convoluted). I thought that the story was fairly simple and straightforward.

Also, as I said, most of this information can be found easily if one reads or watches several interviews James Wan and his crew gave to the media. This is not a new piece of information as some people are saying after hearing that podcast.

 

[CBMNerd]

So that was in the initial script writing stages, when Wan had some reservations about including Black Manta's story in the movie, not after they shot that movie and screened it to test audiences (where some test audiences thought BM's story made the movie convoluted). I thought that the story was fairly simple and straightforward.

Also, as I said, most of this information can be found easily if one reads or watches several interviews James Wan and his crew gave to the media. This is not a new piece of information as some people are saying after hearing that podcast.

Just because it came up during the writing stage doesn't mean it won't come up again during test screening stage. When you are a director and you read a script that is bloated.....you'll have concerns too.....a bloated script will most definitely result in a bloated movie unless something is cut out......and when that concerns came up again during the test screenings......and you seriously think about cutting it out.....only to have bunch of people telling you not to do it.......

Remember....Jame Wan is not James Cameron.....he still needs to take notes from the studios

 

[dhandler01]

So how are you related to this guy? And please dont even try the "I am just a random poster" you gave it away too easily.

 

[CBMNerd]

So how are you related to this guy? And please dont even try the "I am just a random poster" you gave it away too easily.

Huh ? I didn't say I was related to him. I'm just saying that he sounds legit that's all and he's not some random anonymous guy on reddit or those scooper who says he knows someone that gave him info.....His name is Neil Daly.....you can google his credentials online.....

The only reservation I have of what he said was that Wan worked with Synder against WB wishes to undo things Joss Whedon done with Aquaman's character......which I think is a misunderstanding on his part....I mean sure James did in fact showed a version of the movie to Zack......but I don't think it was to get his approval or anything but more out of courtesy.......also more feedback is good.....all in the service of making a better movie

 

[Patchwork Man]

 

[kguillou]

Thing is, as some posters said, Black Manta was actually a part of the story, he was a cog in the narrative that pushed the action forward, I cant see how you can cut him out.

I fee like Wonder Woman in BvS or Spiderman in Civil war are better examples of superfulous elements that didn't really need to be there ( im not complaining, i love both of those movies and those character introductions just making a point).

 

[Patchwork Man]

Thing is, as some posters said, Black Manta was actually a part of the story, he was a cog in the narrative that pushed the action forward, I cant see how you can cut him out.

I fee like Wonder Woman in BvS or Spiderman in Civil war are better examples of superfulous elements that didn't really need to be there ( im not complaining, i love both of those movies and those character introductions just making a point).

Spider-Man's addition to Civil War was total bs, a transparent example of Marvel hurling a 3-gallon drum of black paint at a 6-ft white canvas — and dubbing the ensuing mess "art" — in an attempt to upstage another highly publicized exhibition, "just because." It only made Tony Stark look ever the jerk.

 

[The Guard]

Black Manta is hardly superfluous to this movie. His inclusion presents the beginning and counterpoint to Arthur's vengeance-or-mercy arc within the film. Could you write the story without that, and focus it more toward just Orm? Yes, but the point is they didn't, they had Arthur learn from his mistakes with another person.

I suppose you can make the argument that his inclusion affects the pacing of the overall narrative, but he still fits in pretty well, and is fairly organic within the story with the exception of his sudden, initial reappearance and involvement, but it's not that much of a stretch given what's been established.

I don't find the character any more superfluous than your average action-oriented henchman in comic book films. People who have complained about his arc seem to be doing so because they know he's THE arch-enemy and expected him to be treated as such and not a cog in a grander plan.

Honestly, I can't see the studio seriously wanting to cut him just simply due to the action and visual potential. Like there weren't early pre-viz sessions, storyboards, etc.

 

[Vaibow]

I walked out happy - I felt uplifted like I saw a super hero movie! I did not after MOS, I felt like i was missing something. After BvS I walked out sad and confused at what I saw! JL - I walked out thinking what a mess but at least we can all move forward now.. actually WW I liked and felt good... so for me - was AM perfect - not really - was it good, sure!!! Hard to think it’s in the universe of MOS & BvS!! But I do think solo movies are the key!

 

[Mysteryman]

People are so gullible these days.

That has always been one of my least favorite rumors from MOS , because it is obvious that it is simply not true.