The All Things Flash Thread. - Part 2

[Arachnerd]

No it likely wouldn't have, but lets not pretend the people who are starkly defending the film aren't doing the exact same thing.

I already said (in that post a dozen other ones) it was not the decision I would have made in that position. But that is easy for us to say. It is also not the first time it has happened and it wont be the last. To deny that is to deny history.

You're massively strawmanning and looking at things in absolutes. It is not "one extreme is no better than the other", it's that the people who criticize the decision are looking at it from a more nuanced point of view and actually asking rational questions than just blindly believing everything they're told of a movie they will never get to watch; a movie that is supposedly so godawful that it would have ruined DC's reputation. Tell me, are you honestly naive enough to believe this bull?

If people arguing it was a bad call to cancel Batgirl and the way it was handled is to you an unfounded judgment of the situation that should be disregarded, then you're in no way qualified to make an objective viewpoint here.

Also, nowhere did I say something like this hasn't happened before (ex. 90's Fantastic Four movie), just that it shouldn't happen again period. You implying that it will continue to happen doesn't negate my point either, it shouldn't.

 

[dhandler01]

Batgirl should never have been canceled, period, and to this day i think there were deeper internal political issues for why they decided to do it which we’ll never be privy to. It wasnt just simply, “this film is SO BAD it’ll ruin DC forever!”

It was because they had a $2 billion hole (that we know of...that is what they admit to!) thanks to Killar (he made the streaming decision correct?) and AT&T. They banked on the theater experience going away because of the pandemic (which I agreed with and was wrong...though slowly it is turning out to be correct but not the way they went about it) and tried to get ahead of it by going day and date on HBO Max to cover up for the fact that they screwed up the launch of Max. These clowns weren't smart enough to run a bake sale especially anyone at AT&T. (one of the worst run corps out there year after year) They threw money at any project that they could get headlines over and beef up receipts over. They didn't care about net results, just the big gross numbers that could make investors happy and get them huge bonuses. Its a tale as old as time, and WB has had this issue since Ted Turner was still in charge. (he was big on this type of shady accounting) They basically ran WB as a large Ponzi Scheme robbing from Peter to pay Paul so they could make it look healthier than it was hoping the next big project would be the one that filled the void. The Snyderverse is the perfect microcosm of everything wrong with AT&T/Time Warner (yes I know it predates that I am just making a metaphor here) in that they threw money at massive projects like BvS so they could make that big money and get the headlines, and then used that as collateral to bank on other high profile projects. When BvS didn't make the money needed to fund those other projects and the goodwill was never built up it was left up to the individual movies to fend for themselves. JL tanked, Aquaman and WW were successes and others were all over the place. Then, instead of fixing the issue, they doubled down on getting those big opening day numbers and cycling out more crap trying to take advantage of a market that was willing to keep giving them a shot. They never heeded the words of the people seeing the films, or making them, they didn't care if the film lost millions as long as it got that big opening weekend! Meanwhile AT&T wanted to beef up streaming and threw millions at that without actually setting it up to succeed. AT&T was running WB like they were Cannon Films. Then the Pandemic hit and instead of re-assessing they made even dumber decisions...

The stupid part was they didn't need to do any of it. They had ample times to walk away or just reset and not have it tank their studio.

I realize now Zazlov is the person everyone hates around here but he is not the evil one. Everything people seem to think he plans to do never happens (Battinson to the DCEU, S&L cancelled...etc) and he is put in a bad position to try and fix one of the worst situations you can imagine. That doesn't mean he is correct in his decisions in the real world, but if I was in the hole $2 billion I would probably look to cut a ton of dead weight too. He just chose to ignore the horrid optics of that particular decision which is kind of mind boggling to me. He should never be out front talking he is just not a good vocal figurehead. He needs PR people to talk him out of stupid stuff like this.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I still can't get over how damn cool this is.

 

[dhandler01]

I just think the “it was too bad to release” thing is a lame and classless. Just say you couldn’t afford to release it and that you hope to work with the cast and crew on another project in the future. There was no reason to damage the reputations of all those people. WB punched down and that’s indefensible to me.

This is exactly what a PR person would have told him to do. Shelve the project if you want (because it can always come back as long as you dont write it off) but the way they did it was just imbecilic on a number of levels. They should have reversed course when the Ezra stuff showed up because they could have used the positive press to shield The Flash and also get Batgirl a lot of good will even if it sucked. Win/win.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I really don't see why any of us should care about or sympathize with the position someone like Zaslav is in. I care about the principle of the thing, zero sympathy toward the suits at any of these companies.

 

[Arachnerd]

I think we should move this to the Batgirl thread just so we don't veer too much off-topic here.

 

[dhandler01]

I really don't see why any of us should care about or sympathize with the position someone like Zaslav is in. I care about the principle of the thing, zero sympathy toward the suits at any of these companies.

I dont have sympathy for him, he gets paid handsomely for what he does. I am just saying it is not as cut and dried as people around here make it out to be. He is not evil and the people who made Bartgirl aren't all screwed over artists having their greatness destroyed because he hates everything. I have been around long enough to see how it doesn't matter who is in charge they are always making the wrong decisions in the eyes of the majority of the people around here. (and not just when it comes to WB)

 

[dhandler01]

I think we should move this to the Batgirl thread just so we don't veer too much off-topic here.

Nah we can just drop it, this has been discussed to death and I guess I was just in a mood to rant :/

That gif of the two flashes with the different lightning was sick!

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I dont have sympathy for him, he gets paid handsomely for what he does. I am just saying it is not as cut and dried as people around here make it out to be. He is not evil and the people who made Bartgirl aren't all screwed over artists having their greatness destroyed because he hates everything. I have been around long enough to see how it doesn't matter who is in charge they are always making the wrong decisions by the majority of the people around here. (and not just when it comes to WB)

Zaslav has a rich and colourful history of being a malevolent scumbag. There are manifold reasons people hate him far, far more than just about any other studio head out there.

 

[dhandler01]

Zaslav has a rich and colourful history of being a malevolent scumbag. There are manifold reasons people hate him far, far more than just about any other studio head out there.

Well I cant speak to any of that...I had never heard of him. (I am an amateur at this stuff) Then again the only other studiohead I know is Bob Iger so it isn't like he is keeping great company.

 

[chintai80]

zaslav should get punched in his balls for cancelling batgirl.

burning knuckle style.
like terry bogard in fatal fury.

the flash looks fun though!
but makes me conflicted because of what we know ezra has done or has been accused of doing!

 

[Da-Scribe]

zaslav should get punched in his balls for cancelling batgirl.

burning knuckle style.
like terry bogard in fatal fury.

the flash looks fun though!
but makes me conflicted because of what we know ezra has done or has been accused of doing!

It’s tough with them being the lead, but at the end of the day there are a lot of other people involved who didn’t do anything wrong and deserve to have their work seen imo.

 

[chintai80]

It’s tough with them being the lead, but at the end of the day there are a lot of other people involved who didn’t do anything wrong and deserve to have their work seen imo.

agreed there.
definitely interested in seeing sasha's take on supergirl and keaton's return.
and curious about how they're closing out batfleck's run of the character as well.

 

[DarkKnight]

I just think the “it was too bad to release” thing is a lame and classless. Just say you couldn’t afford to release it and that you hope to work with the cast and crew on another project in the future. There was no reason to damage the reputations of all those people. WB punched down and that’s indefensible to me.

I wish they would release it. If The Flash and Aquaman really are the final existing DCEU films before the full reboot...... Just go ahead and release Batgirl. I was very much looking forward to seeing Leslie Grace, Michael Keaton, Brendan Fraser and JK Simmons in this film.

As I said before, being a huge fan of the Snyderverse (especially after the Snyder cut of Justice League) its been a rough few months for me. Henry coming back, then not, then Superman and Batman reboots announced, full on reboots, Ezra's antics etc. Its been hard to be a DC fan lately especially a Snyderverse DC fan. If it were not for this amazing trailer and Keaton, I wouldnt even be interested. Especially with my mixed feelings on what James Gunn is doing....

 

[AntonGobbs89]

Obviously there will a lot of comparisons between this and No Way Home, but does anyone know which project had been in development for a longer period of time?

 

[chintai80]

i think they were developing this film way before No Way Home came into play.

there were talks of doing a Flash solo film as a flashpoint paradox adaption right after bvs.

though the idea to add keaton into this was probably a later development?

i read somewhere that the plan was jeffrey dean morgan was going play thomas wayne batman.
that's why he and lauren cohan been cast as thomas and martha.

or maybe thats some kind of fan speculation.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

We do know that the Flashpoint stuff has been the basis for this movie since the Zack Snyder days. Even the draft that Grant Morrison and Ezra Miller were working on had to incorporate that as the central plot as it was mandated.

 

[flickchick85]

i think they were developing this film way before No Way Home came into play.

there were talks of doing a Flash solo film as a flashpoint paradox adaption right after bvs.

though the idea to add keaton into this was probably a later development?

i read somewhere that the plan was jeffrey dean morgan was going play thomas wayne batman.
that's why he and lauren cohan been cast as thomas and martha.

or maybe thats some kind of fan speculation.

This film definitely went through several different directors and incarnations, but as someone pointed out earlier, this was first announced a week after the Flash TV show premiered in 2014, and now it will be released shortly after that show ends its 9-season run, and for most of that time, the concept WAS supposedly some variation of Flashpoint, though which versions of which characters it featured would obviously have been in flux. So yeah, it's been in the works longer than NWH for sure.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

Thanks guys. Definitely odd timing that they should come out so close together.

 

[kguillou]

If i recall correctly Keaton was cast in this in summer 2020. In fact we saw that first concept art at DC Fandome that August. A year and a half before NWH. So yeah this story was likely in development before NWH’s was conceived. Or at the same time coincidently.

 

[Arachnerd]

Obviously there will a lot of comparisons between this and No Way Home, but does anyone know which project had been in development for a longer period of time?

The Flash had been in development hell since 2014, so way before No Way Home.

 

[J.Drangal]

The Flash has been in development since 2014, but as said above, while the inspiration from "Flashpoint" was there from the beginning, the plan to bring back a past movie version of Batman came much later. Most likely with Andy Muschietti.
His name began circulating for the project in July 2019. If I'm not mistaken, the public was informed of a possible return of Keaton a year and a month later, at DC Fandome in August 2020. The actor was finally confirmed to reprise the role in April 2021.

According to Wikipedia, development on Spiderman: No Way Home started in August 2019. As of December of the same year, it was still planned to have Kraven as the antagonist. No date is specified, but it's stated that the change of direction with the incursion of Strange and the possibility of exploring a multiverse came quickly after. By deduction, in early 2020 with the movie finally begening its production in the fall of that same year.

So, the two films were pretty much developed simultaneously. If it's possible that they both had the same idea at the same time, there's a strong chance that one knew what the other was preparing...

 

[Arachnerd]

According to Wikipedia, development on Spiderman: No Way Home started in August 2019. As of December of the same year, it was still planned to have Kraven as the antagonist. No date is specified, but it's stated that the change of direction with the incursion of Strange and the possibility of exploring a multiverse came quickly after. By deduction, in early 2020 with the movie finally begening its production in the fall of that same year.

Kraven was never really confirmed, Jon Watts just said he liked the character and wouldn't be opposed to use him in a future installment. As for the multiverse element, it was prevalent as early as that infamous Far From Home interview so it wasn't much of a drastic change in plans, but even then I wager the concept was most likely discussed sometime after the release of ITSV and before FFH's premiere.

 

[emielaen]

WB is just slow and tends to mess over DC productions due to all of their managerial problems. I think they even teased the multiverse before the MCU.

 

[Arachnerd]

In CW's Crisis On Infinite Earths, yeah. Ezra cameo'd in that and shared a scene with Grant Gustin's Flash.