The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Amazing Spider-Man 2 General Discussion - Part 85

[GuestStar2004]

the logic here seems to be his parents left him with aunt may and uncle ben to protect him and while they were not bad people and won't stop peter remembering and deep down missing them peter should move on from his parents and see aunt may and uncle ben as his parents and the most important thing

thats a very kinda heartless way to look at peter, in TASM we seen how much uncle ben mean't to peter, i ain't sure why as some pointed out that peter needs to cry over uncle ben in each movie otherwise we think he wasn't important to peter, its more like fans see it as a threat to what they know rather then seeing it as a case of uncle bens part in the story hasn't been touched or damaged, its right there in TASM, he become spider-man because of ben and not because of his parents

as for why his father would have came back in TASM2, i assume that was for the emotional punch on peter as a character first and foremost rather then upsetting the structure that fans are over protective about from the comics

and i from what i have heard uncle ben didn't say responsibility line in the comic either, i'm more bothered that they would have gone back to that line rather then over who said it

 

[W/ Great Power]

The TASM movies have Peter devote more time, energy and emotion to his parents than he does Uncle Ben.

I can't believe any Spider-Man fan would seriously ask why anyone would be annoyed at a version of Peter Parker who shows more concern about his parents, who are absolute NONENTITIES in the comics, than he does his Uncle Ben, who's death is the whole foundation of him being Spider-Man. Uncle Ben is a foundation of Spider-Man lore. Peter's parents are not. I'm willing to bet most Spider-Man fans don't even know much or anything about the parents.

In the comics books, out of 50+ years worth of stories the only two times Peter's parents were ever relevant to him was in ONE story during Stan Lee's run where he found out the Red Skull framed his parents as traitors and he went and cleared their name.

The second story was in the height of the crap fest of the 90's where Chameleon and Goblin made ROBOTS of Peter's parents to fool him into thinking they were alive lol.

So to see these sorry excuses for Spider-Man movies placing so much emphasis on the parents, and in such a dull boring way, too, gives fans every valid right and reason to complain.

Initially, I thought the parents storyline was an intriguing idea. I mean, why not show a little more backstory to Peter and how he came to live with May and Uncle Ben. And maybe even show how his parents are somehow tied into the plot with some new, creative or interesting storytelling.

After seeing the films, I don't think the parents angle was a good idea. Had I known that the parents story would take away from the importance of Uncle Ben and his message to Peter, I would have been against it from the beginning. Not to mention that the parents story, mostly about his father, did absolutely nothing interesting--it was dull, boring and totally predictable. It also ate up a lot of valuable screen time that could have been used elsewhere.

Coming from the perspective of a parent myself, the storyline here does resonate with me emotionally on some level. I've already written a very long post detailing my feelings on this so I'm not gonna go into it however, as a long time Spidey fan, this 'twist' turned out rather flat. It was a miss. And the fact that they actually filmed Richard still being alive means it was in consideration to be used in the final product. A horrible idea and I'm glad it wasn't included. That would have been the end of Uncle Ben for sure and probably would have totally ruined his relationship with May. It's right up there with Sandman--probably worse though. I also can't believe they gave the WGPcGR line to Richard. That was dumb.

Both of these posts

 

[spiderral]

People care, it's just that this series divide people.

Spider-Man 3 didn't really help, either.

Agreed.

Initially, I thought the parents storyline was an intriguing idea. I mean, why not show a little more backstory to Peter and how he came to live with May and Uncle Ben. And maybe even show how his parents are somehow tied into the plot with some new, creative or interesting storytelling.

After seeing the films, I don't think the parents angle was a good idea. Had I known that the parents story would take away from the importance of Uncle Ben and his message to Peter, I would have been against it from the beginning. Not to mention that the parents story, mostly about his father, did absolutely nothing interesting--it was dull, boring and totally predictable. It also ate up a lot of valuable screen time that could have been used elsewhere.

Coming from the perspective of a parent myself, the storyline here does resonate with me emotionally on some level. I've already written a very long post detailing my feelings on this so I'm not gonna go into it however, as a long time Spidey fan, this 'twist' turned out rather flat. It was a miss. And the fact that they actually filmed Richard still being alive means it was in consideration to be used in the final product. A horrible idea and I'm glad it wasn't included. That would have been the end of Uncle Ben for sure and probably would have totally ruined his relationship with May. It's right up there with Sandman--probably worse though. I also can't believe they gave the WGPcGR line to Richard. That was dumb.

I also agree with this. I think that the only time the parents storyline has ever been "good" is when there's been an emotional moment that shows Peter "re-connecting" with his parents that he knew little about (kinda like in Harry Potter, Harry seeing photographs of his parents, seeing them in the Mirror of Erised?).

E.g., it was touching when Peter's watching Richard's video in the secret lab and Richard mentions how he loves his son and as the video ends, we hear young Peter call out and Richard quickly ending the video and Peter is there watching the video and smiles as he watches. That was the only good pay-off of having the whole secret lab thing (<< which did nothing to help progress the story).

I hoped it would end up with Peter realising that his "real" parents are Aunt May and Uncle Ben. Yes, similar to the ending of Spider-Man 1, but it would have been a nice way to present that idea.

Given that Webb even filmed a scene of Richard coming back and deliver that With great Power... line, I have no hope for there being a conclusion like what I said above.

It doesn't help that Richard doesn't really come off as a character to root for either. "Be good...", OK? Coming back now, of all times...OK?

And what's up with Peter just looking for his dad all the time, what about his mom? She's barely mentioned.

^^ Related to what I said above in response to the other quote.

TASM2 should have had Peter finding out enough about his parents that it made him at peace with the fact that his parents were gone and had the parents storyline actually help progress the story and satisfied the audience, making it seem as if the parents angle was worth telling and bringing to the series. But as you said, TASM2 should have ended with Peter accepting that May and Ben are indeed his parents and that he should appreciate them.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I don't see why Peter has to almost register uncle Ben and aunt may as his parents, it seems more like insecurity over the characters importance then is really needed

I personally think it would be out of place if Peter just randomly accepted his parents were gone and said how ben and may were his real parents, you could understand it if peters parents abandoned him out of selfish reasons but they were not really selfish reasons, and going by the flashback of what peters remembers of them how can you expect Peter to forget them

They have shown in TASM and TASM2 that Peter does care about Ben and may but I don't think Peter has to keep telling the audience he cares about them

 

[GuestStar2004]

Ben and May actually came before the parents in TASM, the only real connections to peters parents was connors and after peter saves the child and is emotionally effected by seeing the kid and his father

the ending with the voicemail is a really nice scene and i don't think thats needs to be topped or expanded apon somehow in each film, the only real issue is that the poster of the killer was shown at the end almost to say that story isn't over... but then TASM2 decided it was done and dusted which i put down to critics saying it was just same as the raimi films and the parents plot promised something but didn't deliver

i won't count this

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I don't see why Peter has to almost register uncle Ben and aunt may as his parents, it seems more like insecurity over the characters importance then is really needed

I personally think it would be out of place if Peter just randomly accepted his parents were gone and said how ben and may were his real parents, you could understand it if peters parents abandoned him out of selfish reasons but they were not really selfish reasons, and going by the flashback of what peters remembers of them how can you expect Peter to forget them

They have shown in TASM and TASM2 that Peter does care about Ben and may but I don't think Peter has to keep telling the audience he cares about them

The issue here is not that Peter is thinking about his parents, it's that his parents have taken the stage front and center and May and Ben, especially Ben, have been pushed to the side.

It only makes sense that Peter would wonder about his parents. I can understand the thought process here. It's not as if he was sent to live with his Uncle and Aunt because his parents were abusive, or drug addicts, or though it was a teen pregnancy issue. They did it to protect him. And as far as Peter knew, everything in his life was going good and then all of the sudden, he's dropped off at his relatives house for seemingly no reason and moments later his parents are dead. That's traumatic for a little kid and again, it only makes sense that he would be thinking about his parents and what exactly happened.

Everything started off just fine in ASM even with the parents story going on...Uncle Ben was there, his presence felt and moments between he and Peter were good, "hey Uncle Ben...you're a great dad, alright." And although the movie sort of forgets about Ben somewhere in the middle, the ending voicemail nicely wraps things up but also hints toward the future with the poster of his killer. Everything is going along ok at this point, until....

ASM2 throws all of this away. His parents become the main focus. Ben is only mentioned a few times or even brought up and May is the one to do it. It's not insecurity here, it's the rearranging of Peter, of Spider-Man's mythos and it's done in such a contrived way, it's saddening. Ben is the reason Peter becomes Spider-Man--that's the way it has always been. This is a foundation element for the story, for Peter and him taking up the mantra of GPcGR. Sheesh, even USM the cartoon recognizes this! I've said this plenty of times before but...in an adaptation there's gonna be changes, there will always be changes but when you make them and they ruin what makes the character or a character so great in the first place, that's when the trouble starts.

 

[SymbioticToxin]

If anything, I'd like the parent thing to wrap up with Peter accepting that his parents, while he cared for him and him for them, were such a minimal factor in who he became. And bring in some more of that Uncle Ben, because Michael Sheen is my favorite Uncle Ben.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

The TASM movies have Peter devote more time, energy and emotion to his parents than he does Uncle Ben.

I can't believe any Spider-Man fan would seriously ask why anyone would be annoyed at a version of Peter Parker who shows more concern about his parents, who are absolute NONENTITIES in the comics, than he does his Uncle Ben, who's death is the whole foundation of him being Spider-Man. Uncle Ben is a foundation of Spider-Man lore. Peter's parents are not. I'm willing to bet most Spider-Man fans don't even know much or anything about the parents.

In the comics books, out of 50+ years worth of stories the only two times Peter's parents were ever relevant to him was in ONE story during Stan Lee's run where he found out the Red Skull framed his parents as traitors and he went and cleared their name.

The second story was in the height of the crap fest of the 90's where Chameleon and Goblin made ROBOTS of Peter's parents to fool him into thinking they were alive lol.

So to see these sorry excuses for Spider-Man movies placing so much emphasis on the parents, and in such a dull boring way, too, gives fans every valid right and reason to complain.

 

[spiderman2]

I don't see many people arguing against that, The Joker. From what I can see, even most people who like these films dislike the parents storyline.

Oh I don't know about that. I think the parents storyline is just fine. I don't think that there is a problem with him wanting to find out about his parents in the movie has he just wants closher in the movie. I don't see how peter cares about his parents more then his ant or uncle but the big issue is just that they don't talk about uncle ben enough in the movie. I don't see how the movie is chesse and I don't think that harry was rushed at all. This is a great movie. The only issue I really do agree with is not having more about uncle ben. I think that was the worst thing about the movie lack of uncle ben. That is part of why I wish we had the longer goblin fight to because it had peter thinking about uncle ben. I really hope that we hear more about uncle ben in the next movie and like some one said it would be cool if they had something with peter at uncle bens grave in the start of asm3 talking to him or something.

 

[spider-neil]

If you devote so much time to a storyline (parents) the payoff needs to justify the time spent and in ASM2 it does not.

 

[spiderral]

^^ Hear hear.

 

[SymbioticToxin]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that my biggest problem with Spidey movies is the numerous plots. I blame the MCU for making me realize this. They all have one plot and they go throw with it. There are obviously going to be things that branch out from it, but it's still all connected and if it isn't resolved becomes a part of the plot of the next film.
With Spider-man, there's the main plot and a few others that aren't connected at all. While that's not a bad thing and at least a few plots were good or had potential, it obviously came back and bit them in the rear.

 

[spiderral]

I think what happened in the TASM films would be best suited for a TV show (or at least TASM2 because of sub-plot overload). Any Spider-Man film would be fine if it just had a "linear" plot that flows very well.

 

[W/ Great Power]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

That's the problem with the universe expansion. A character that works perfectly alone and has succeeded on the big screen in his own world does not need a universe just because it's the trend among other superheroes.

Other superheroes need collaborations and team-ups, not Spider-Man.

While I still am open-minded to S6 and giving Sony one more chance to right the ship, I would much rather see a traditional film with Spider-Man dealing with the already character-and-substance-rich world that he's in.

 

[spiderral]

^^ Exactly. It just goes to show that Sony don't really know what to do with the franchise anymore and are just jumping on the bandwagon with the whole world building thing. They seem to care more about having an expanded movie universe than Spider-Man himself as a character.

If they planned the S6 from the start and this was evident throughout the TASM films because they had a plot that led up to that moment then I think everyone would be okay with the S6 spin-off because it would be interesting but all they did was just shove the S6 thing in the final 5 minutes of TASM2 and expect everyone to be okay with that.

Silly Sony...

 

[Perry9]

Okay, the statement "Sony doesn't know wtf it's doing" is fundamentally wrong. They obviously KNOW that they want to do a Sinister Six film because they are convinced that this will bring a breath of fresh air in the franchise. That's why they pushed back TASM 3 and replaced it with the SS film in 2016. They realize that Spider-man's films have grown stale and they want to do something different. They also obviously KNOW that Drew Goddard is a genre director that is born to do these kind of stuff. That's why they hired him. They DO have a direction. It remains to be seen whether they'll lead the ship to a safe land or to the rocks.

 

[Michael Frost]

Okay, the statement "Sony doesn't know wtf it's doing" is fundamentally wrong. They obviously KNOW that they want to do a Sinister Six film because they are convinced that this will bring a breath of fresh air in the franchise ton of money in their pocket.

Took the liberty of adjusting your post with the actual real-world motivation. This is purely post-Avengers jumping on the bandwagon and hurting your product as a result.

This movie was seriously harmed by the constant shifting of focus during production, with them figuring out they wanted "world building" and "continuity" like Marvel in the middle of the movie making process and cutting/adding stuff as they see fit in the editing room (and subsequently marketing it as such).

 

[spiderral]

Okay, the statement "Sony doesn't know wtf it's doing" is fundamentally wrong. They obviously KNOW that they want to do a Sinister Six film because they are convinced that this will bring a breath of fresh air in the franchise. That's why they pushed back TASM 3 and replaced it with the SS film in 2016. They realize that Spider-man's films have grown stale and they want to do something different. They also obviously KNOW that Drew Goddard is a genre director that is born to do these kind of stuff. That's why they hired him. They DO have a direction. It remains to be seen whether they'll lead the ship to a safe land or to the rocks.

I get that pushing TASM3 back was a reasonable move for Sony as we're having these two spin-off films in the meantime but I don't want them to bring out another two mediocre Spider-Man related films before TASM3 comes out.

If Sony give Drew Goddard all the creative freedom that he wants, then I have hope for the film, especially if they have a good director on board. If Sony don't do that though and interfere, they're just going to keep calling in these big names from Hollywood (e.g. getting Hans Zimmer to score Spidey, getting Kurtzman and Orci to write TASM2 who weren't good choices anyway), they're going to expect to make a lot of money and be surprised when they fail when the films aren't received as well as they thought they would just because they, Sony, got in the way of what could have otherwise been a good film.

 

[GuestStar2004]

sony needs a rough plan for this universe or at least a structure of where Its going and what characters they want to use for it, problem with TASM2 it seems like they didn't have a plan it was all trial and error and last minute changes

if its a case of some spider-man fatigue which is very possible then yes the sinister 6 could breath new life into the series

 

[DyeLorean]

sony needs a rough plan for this universe or at least a structure of where Its going and what characters they want to use for it, problem with TASM2 it seems like they didn't have a plan it was all trial and error and last minute changes

I completely agree, and I've been saying that since day one. But is too late for that. They should've done that years ago. So clumsy and unprofessional.
They are not getting my money again in the near future, that's for sure.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Will the sinister six be safe though? I really want this franchise to be good. With Sony losing alot of money they need to give drew Goddard some freedom and hire talented writers and directors and give them the freedom they need to make a great spiderman series. The sinister six is their last shot. If they meddle with Goddard it's over for them and the rights would immediately go back to marvel.

Not everything will depend on the sinister 6 spin off so I wouldn't call it Sonys final shot

It's not like they will lose the rights automatically if it fails (which it would really have to do shockingly bad to really effect them) so sony will still look at their options

 

[DyeLorean]

I honest and seriously don't know how a Sinister Six movie without Spider-Man can work. I only have a little bit of faith because of Drew Goddard.

 

[Michael Frost]

Even tho I love the notion of a Drew Goddard Sinister Six movie, part of me wants that deal to fall through until we actually have a production company that also cares about the material and not only the money it can generate for them. Plus I'd hate it for Drew's incursion into a mainstream blockbuster to be tainted by the usual executive meddling that Sony always does.

 

[spiderral]

Even tho I love the notion of a Drew Goddard Sinister Six movie, part of me wants that deal to fall through until we actually have a production company that also cares about the material and not only the money it can generate for them. Plus I'd hate it for Drew's incursion into a mainstream blockbuster to be tainted by the usual executive meddling that Sony always does.

That's why I'm hoping the spin-off films before TASM3 will do terribly so that Sony will realise they need to stop being such greedy arses and actually make a decent Spider-Man film.

Plus, I don't want a failed S6 film leading into TASM3. I'd rather Spidey just going against one villain (two at the most) this time around with a more focused story.

One thing that I've just realised which is quite funny and sad is that fans are asking for Sony to do such a simple thing (to have a streamlined plot line with one villain for a decent Spider-Man film) yet they're making things complicated with this world-building thing and shoving too many things into the Spidey films. Don't they understand that less is more? They're giving fans things that they don't want. Sure, they listened in regards to the changes they made from TASM1 for TASM2 (suit, Spidey saving civilians more, Spider-Man IS Spider-Man) but they can't do something like get some decent writers together to work on a good story to tell.

 

[GuestStar2004]

i know many think this is just a pointless spin off but i think the sinister 6 could be a good move by sony as problem could also be spider-man fatigue since whether its the same series or a reboot its still the 5th spider-man movie made and the formula for each film hasn't been different enough

with marvel they play with all these different characters so we are getting abit of everything, while with WB they are also setting up their universe and FOX who even though they keep on the wolverine bandwagon they still have access to so many characters who they pick a hand full of for each movie which has kept it fresh, not wolverine alone