The Amazing Spider-Man v.2 - Part 2

[spiderbob]

Saying you saw the only guy in the MU to perfectly complete cloning die is kinda short sighted. And that's even disregarding the fact that every major and several minor villains that Peter's seen die have come back at least once, without being able to perfectly clone themselves from the start.



The other thing about the organic webbing, so far it seems like all his other powers are there or at least have been there. Peter can still do that thing where other parts of his body are sticky (as shown by the way he kept his mask on when around anti-venom). It does seem odd how easily all these people can use the spider-powers and web swing like naturals. I would think they'd all have the strength and speed thing down right from the start, but some of the other stuff took peter a while to get down and perfect. So that is a bit annoying to see a bunch of people (not just carlie, but everyone) doing like naturals.

Before the Flying Graysons took their act to Gotham, they showcased in New York, where they gave every citizen of the city free acrobatic and trapeze lessons as a promotional gig for their act.
Hence the citizens of New York are simply recalling that training they received when they were younger.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Saying you saw the only guy in the MU to perfectly complete cloning die is kinda short sighted. And that's even disregarding the fact that every major and several minor villains that Peter's seen die have come back at least once, without being able to perfectly clone themselves from the start.

Exactly. It's not so much that Carlie Cooper "figured" it out but the fact that at NO TIME did Peter have a thought balloon or caption where he stated, "I wonder who could be behind this". It's just like he's winging this and some of the people who recently have gotten spider powers in this infestation or smarter than he is.

Hoping Slott turns this around here.

 

[runawayboulder]

I don't think anybody had time to process what was going on yet.

 

[Themanofbat]

Not to mention that initially, Peter was more concerned that he himself was the cause of making all these Spider-Men... as opposed to one of his enemies being the cause...

I have no major issues with how this story is turning itseld out... so far.

 

[runawayboulder]

I think people are so afraid it may be another Shadowland in their own minds it sucks. It's got a long way to go.....

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Not to mention that initially, Peter was more concerned that he himself was the cause of making all these Spider-Men... as opposed to one of his enemies being the cause...

I have no major issues with how this story is turning itseld out... so far.

I'm with you on this.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I don't think anybody had time to process what was going on yet.

Carlie did while dealing with newfound spider-powers at that.

 

[runawayboulder]

Carlie did while dealing with newfound spider-powers at that.

That's why she's the greatest girlfriend EVER.

 

[Shockdingo]

I've been a detractor of Carlie in the past, but I haven't actually minded her as of late. My only meh moment was the Jackal solving bit. I dunno, I felt that it would have been nicer for Pete to get that, or at least for them to come to the same conclusion around the same time. I can forgive though. The only thing I'm worried about is what Madam Web said about Brock and Flash. I don't wanna see Eddie go. :/

 

[stillanerd]

But while we're on the subject of gadgets - couldn't Spidey have rebuilt the device he used against Spider-Slayer and Scorpion? He's already lost his "spider-sense", so what further harm could it do to him? It'd have eliminated that advantage from the "Spider-Gang" and likely disoriented them for a few moments - allowing the Avengers, Young Allies, FF, and Storm an easier time to defeat them. I still liked the moment where Peter rallied the "non-evil" Spider-people to aid the heroes in civilian attire - I liked that it showed that Peter Parker could be a hero without being Spider-Man. But, that device would have been handy.

I was thinking of the same thing prior to Spider-Island even starting; and I even thought that Peter might just end up making a new jamming device in order to "cure" people, not just eliminate the spider-sense, but all the powers. He would just need a very high place to put something like that up, such as the top of the Empire State Building as shown in the cover for Amazing Spider-Man #672.

Apparently, Anti-Venom can cure anyone "infected", which may become key later on. Maybe Peter will figure out a gadget to expand his range?

Such as delivery system--like the spider-sense jammer, perhaps? Also, I'm guessing that since Anti-Venom is the only one who can cure people of their spider-powers, he'll be the one who winds up sacrificing himself for the greater good. After all, what Julia Carpenter said suggested that either Venom or Anti-Venom was going to die, and it's pretty much a no brainier who that's going to be considering how one of them currently has an ongoing series and the other doesn't.

 

[runawayboulder]

Unless Eddie ends up back in the Venom outfit ahead of schedule. I'm not privy to any info, I just figure that's what's going to happen anyway when the Flash story runs it's course. The solo would still sell with Brock as the regular Venom if you ask me.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Unless Eddie ends up back in the Venom outfit ahead of schedule. I'm not privy to any info, I just figure that's what's going to happen anyway when the Flash story runs it's course. The solo would still sell with Brock as the regular Venom if you ask me.

God no. Flash is killing it. Going back to "I'll eat your braaaaiiinnnsss!" and brock as a lethal protector type? I'll jump off immediately. Flash is an infinitely better character.

 

[runawayboulder]

It's not a given that Eddie would go back to that route. I'd give Remender a little more credit than that. He's too talented a guy.

 

[moraldeficiency]

It's not a given that Eddie would go back to that route. I'd give Remender a little more credit than that. He's too talented a guy.

But flash is compelling. He's got an actual character and motivation. Also he's one of the few disabled superheroes. He's also built up his own villains and supporting cast and he's been selling despite not using the symbiote in the standard way.

Why on earth would you throw all that away?

 

[Spider-Nerd]

Flash is ****ing awesome in Venom.

 

[runawayboulder]

Don't get me wrong, Flash is awesome as Venom. I thought that the moment it became clear he was going to be Venom. I just don't think the premise has a long shelf life before sales begin to wane. Right now under military supervision he can barely control the symbiote, Remender will have to do something about that as the book continues on. The problem with that is, do you have Flash totally give in to the alien and fully become what Eddie was? Yeah, he could go on the run from the army but you can risk tainting Flash in the process as he becomes less human.

If Eddie becomes Venom again, you can give the book a nice shot in the arm it may need at some point because let's face it, it's going to take a lot for this book to make it past a year 3.

 

[WolfCypher]

God no. Flash is killing it. Going back to "I'll eat your braaaaiiinnnsss!" and brock as a lethal protector type? I'll jump off immediately. Flash is an infinitely better character.

That's not the route Remender would go with Eddie anyway. There's also always the chance that even if Flash stays as Venom, another writer would just take over and regress even Remender's take and make Flash-Venom just as bad as you say Eddie-Venom would be. There's no flat out scenario. Eddie-Venom could work, Flash-Venom could tank, it all depends on the writing.

This mindset everyone has about Eddie having no motivations is stale. His reasons for hating Spider-Man are far beyond the generic "I hate you because I got powers, did a crime, and you stopped me" like pretty much every other super-villlain, even A-listers. Writers have even tried to give modern villains intricate motivations (Hush for instance) only for these "intricate" reasons to fall on their face. Less is more, and simple is better. I mean, this is becoming a rant. I liked Eddie's reasons (non-cancer), you guys may not, I think Eddie can work again as Venom, I do love Flash's Venom, I don't think anything is for certain, anything may happen, friendly debate.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Don't get me wrong, Flash is awesome as Venom. I thought that the moment it became clear he was going to be Venom. I just don't think the premise has a long shelf life before sales begin to wane. Right now under military supervision he can barely control the symbiote, Remender will have to do something about that as the book continues on. The problem with that is, do you have Flash totally give in to the alien and fully become what Eddie was? Yeah, he could go on the run from the army but you can risk tainting Flash in the process as he becomes less human.

If Eddie becomes Venom again, you can give the book a nice shot in the arm it may need at some point because let's face it, it's going to take a lot for this book to make it past a year 3.

I like that idea, that he can't just stay as venom indefinitely. I hope he doesn't give in or become another hulk type. I like the whole disabled vet and former ass becoming something better. I'm loving the book so far and it's actually establishing new characters.

The problem with eddie is no matter who's writing him he's still eddie brock. He's just an awful character. His history makes little sense as a hero or even a competent villain, he just comes off as a whiny child, "I didn't get my way so now I'm going to eat someone's brain! *pout*". I could see many writers doing awesome venom stories, but if it's centered around eddie I'm out. He got played out in the 90s and has been hanging around far too long.

I'm hoping what they do is work on the symbiote from it's origins. Remember originally it was the only member of it's race that wasn't evil and didn't want to kill everyone. Even when peter rejected it it's first conscious act was to save his life. It wasn't until it bonded with eddie that it became evil, feeding of eddie's inate dickishness. Since then it's really only had evil people to bond with. Flash though isn't evil and infact loves Spider-Man (which the symbiote probably still does as well). I could see some depth there in the intermingling and growing of new emotions for the alien.

 

[moraldeficiency]

This mindset everyone has about Eddie having no motivations is stale. His reasons for hating Spider-Man are far beyond the generic "I hate you because I got powers, did a crime, and you stopped me" like pretty much every other super-villlain, even A-listers. Writers have even tried to give modern villains intricate motivations (Hush for instance) only for these "intricate" reasons to fall on their face. Less is more, and simple is better. I mean, this is becoming a rant. I liked Eddie's reasons (non-cancer), you guys may not, I think Eddie can work again as Venom, I do love Flash's Venom, I don't think anything is for certain, anything may happen, friendly debate.

You're right his motivations are worse:

"I got popular cause I got a serial confessor to admit to being a serial murderer, but then Peter Parker and Spider-Man caught the real murderer. If he hadn't everything would have worked out fine and I'm sure the freaking serial murderer wouldn't have hurt everyone else. How dare they expose the truth! Arg, me eat brains now!"

Kids who got picked last for kickball have a better reason to become villains than eddie brock. I mean eddie wasn't even wronged in some way by anyone. He just failed in his work and rather than be a man decided to blame everyone else and justify, excuse, justify. Eddie worked originally as the symbiote's host but should have died after his 2nd, 3rd defeat and had the symbiote move on. He's just not a good character. If eddie becomes venom again and stars in the book it will lose the complexity, depth and motivations that have made venom an actual compelling character again. And with that I shall pass saddened that marvel was doing something good and innovative and discarded it for a guy that's never been able to hold an audience once the brain eating gimmick wears thin.

 

[Godzilla2014]

That's not the route Remender would go with Eddie anyway. There's also always the chance that even if Flash stays as Venom, another writer would just take over and regress even Remender's take and make Flash-Venom just as bad as you say Eddie-Venom would be. There's no flat out scenario. Eddie-Venom could work, Flash-Venom could tank, it all depends on the writing.

This mindset everyone has about Eddie having no motivations is stale. His reasons for hating Spider-Man are far beyond the generic "I hate you because I got powers, did a crime, and you stopped me" like pretty much every other super-villlain, even A-listers. Writers have even tried to give modern villains intricate motivations (Hush for instance) only for these "intricate" reasons to fall on their face. Less is more, and simple is better. I mean, this is becoming a rant. I liked Eddie's reasons (non-cancer), you guys may not, I think Eddie can work again as Venom, I do love Flash's Venom, I don't think anything is for certain, anything may happen, friendly debate.

Agreed.
I believe that Eddie Brock as Venom COULD have been and still could be redeemed if he were to return. What I think was the character's biggest problem was a lack of consistency in his characterization. In one issue, he loved being Venom and the symbiote, and was having sadistic fun. In the next, he hated being Venom and the symbiote, and was a tortured soul. Sometimes, he was the greatest threat to Peter Parker around, and other times Peter just let him go. He would also go from villain to anti-hero and back again depending on what the writer wanted him to be. He stopped being a character and became a generic villain.

Really, I think Marvel could make Venom great again if you gave him a direction and stuck to it.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Venom's already great, check out his ongoing for more on this. No need to go to a formula that's been tried and failed.

 

[WolfCypher]

You're right his motivations are worse:

"I got popular cause I got a serial confessor to admit to being a serial murderer, but then Peter Parker and Spider-Man caught the real murderer. If he hadn't everything would have worked out fine and I'm sure the freaking serial murderer wouldn't have hurt everyone else. How dare they expose the truth! Arg, me eat brains now!"

Kids who got picked last for kickball have a better reason to become villains than eddie brock. I mean eddie wasn't even wronged in some way by anyone. He just failed in his work and rather than be a man decided to blame everyone else and justify, excuse, justify. Eddie worked originally as the symbiote's host but should have died after his 2nd, 3rd defeat and had the symbiote move on. He's just not a good character. If eddie becomes venom again and stars in the book it will lose the complexity, depth and motivations that have made venom an actual compelling character again. And with that I shall pass saddened that marvel was doing something good and innovative and discarded it for a guy that's never been able to hold an audience once the brain eating gimmick wears thin.

That's ok for me. Yeah, I'm Eddie-biased, but I'm honestly not seeing how his reasons for hating Spider-Man are as terrible as most say. I see it as Eddie being flawed. His own incompetance was his downfall, but being the delusional flawed human he is, he refused to accept the blame and just had to find a scapegoat. I mean he did become a villain, so its not like the guy had to be a model human. Eventually, without Spider-Man's involvement, that serial killer would have struck again, and it would have only been a matter of time before Eddie's career and life came crashing down. And I still believe if he is true to his character he still would have gone down the "it's not my fault..." angle and became a bitter, vengful character. But since Spider-Man just happened to play a role, he became the scapegoat specifically.

He reminds me of Daemona and Jon Canmore from Gargoyles. Daemona blames the destruction of her clan on the humans, but it was her own treachery that caused her clan's death, and even when this is addressed to her she still refuses to take fault. Jon Canmore was responsible for the paralysis of his brother in the final episode of Season 2, but blames Goliath for it instead. I just like throwing a Gargoyles referrence in here, but seriously, I'm pretty sure there are several examples one could bring up on characters who refuse to take responsiblity for their own actions/put their blame on someone else. If the writers at the time went this angle (of how Spider-Man is all about "great responsibilty" while Venom is anything but...) we could have gotten a nice story showing this parallel between Spidey and Venom.

I think we need to get past the motivation, love it or hate it, anyway. Its been what, 20 years, since the 1st Venom story. I think we should be more concerned with what the character can do now and in the future. It shouldn't matter too much how the anomosity started. I never think about how Sabretooth and Wolverine 1st came to blows, they've been at it for so long it shouldn't matter anymore. Not to mention those two have created many more reasons to still hate each other.

 

[Godzilla2014]

That's ok for me. Yeah, I'm Eddie-biased, but I'm honestly not seeing how his reasons for hating Spider-Man are as terrible as most say. I see it as Eddie being flawed. His own incompetance was his downfall, but being the delusional flawed human he is, he refused to accept the blame and just had to find a scapegoat. I mean he did become a villain, so its not like the guy had to be a model human. Eventually, without Spider-Man's involvement, that serial killer would have struck again, and it would have only been a matter of time before Eddie's career and life came crashing down. And I still believe if he is true to his character he still would have gone down the "it's not my fault..." angle and became a bitter, vengful character. But since Spider-Man just happened to play a role, he became the scapegoat specifically.

He reminds me of Daemona and Jon Canmore from Gargoyles. Daemona blames the destruction of her clan on the humans, but it was her own treachery that caused her clan's death, and even when this is addressed to her she still refuses to take fault. Jon Canmore was responsible for the paralysis of his brother in the final episode of Season 2, but blames Goliath for it instead. I just like throwing a Gargoyles referrence in here, but seriously, I'm pretty sure there are several examples one could bring up on characters who refuse to take responsiblity for their own actions/put their blame on someone else. If the writers at the time went this angle (of how Spider-Man is all about "great responsibilty" while Venom is anything but...) we could have gotten a nice story showing this parallel between Spidey and Venom.

I think we need to get past the motivation, love it or hate it, anyway. Its been what, 20 years, since the 1st Venom story. I think we should be more concerned with what the character can do now and in the future. It shouldn't matter too much how the anomosity started. I never think about how Sabretooth and Wolverine 1st came to blows, they've been at it for so long it shouldn't matter anymore. Not to mention those two have created many more reasons to still hate each other.

Agreed. Venom and Spider-Man have a very interesting dynamic that surpasses Venom's original motivations. After all, Norman Osborn wanted to kill Spider-Man because he wanted to take over the mob. His initial motivation isn't very strong, but the ensuing battles with Peter Parker have created a very interesting dynamic between the two that surpasses initial reasons for being.

 

[WolfCypher]

I would be fine with Eddie staying AV so Flash can stay Venom, but Marvel is alluding to Anti-Venom's story being over which puts Eddie fate in the rough. I don't necessarily want Eddie as Venom, just have the dude DO something. He's established enough as a Spider-Man character to not be shoved off into limbo. I want him to stick around.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I would just prefer eddie to get the cancer back and die. Venom is the cool thing, brock was just the stuffing holding the villain in. The symbiote is much more fun and without eddie around they could actually do some great stuff with it (see venom the series for more on this) rather than have eddie always in the wings to bring venom back to just a moronic one note wonder who's note is rather flat at this point.

Eddie Brock in spectacular spider-man? That was a good version of Venom and if that was him in the 616 I'd dig it, or even ultimate venom was just a better character, but eddie 616 brock? It's just gone beyond the silly pale at this point for why he wants to kill spider-man. Hell he should just be happy he's not in prison for life like he should (thanks daredevil, that was just the best ever) for all those killings and innocents he's murdered both as venom and as just plain eddie "i'm a childish dick" brock.