The Amazing Spider-Man v.2 - Part 2

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If this is true, then I stand corrected.



From that description, it sounds like Eddie is talking about how if he makes himself stronger without the augmentations of the symbiote, then he will be even stronger with them. Sort of like if Peter lost his powers, bulked up, and then regained said powers, he would be even stronger than before.

So how strong was Gargan as Venom, exactly? I've heard estimates from class 40 to class 100. Are those accurate?

Go read Amazing Spider-Man 254. Peter just came back to Earth with the alien costume and he's fighting Jack-o-Lantern over the Hobgoblin's battle van. This is the 1st time they've fought since his return. As they fight, JoL says, and I quote, "Incredible! He's even faster than I remember. Stronger, too!" This was the only time Alien Costume Spider-Man was cited as being stronger, faster, whatever, during this time with the symbiote. Afterwards the writing found other ways to subtly imply the nature of the costume. It may not have been brought up to death, but it was done once.

I know all about SM:TAS. You're not telling me anything I don't know. What I'm saying is that the symbiote has been written later on after Spider-Man's alien costume run as enhancing whoever wears it. In a couple of ASM Venom stories Eddie would monolouge to himself and say how by working the stronger he gets the stronger the symbiote can make him or some similar line (see ASM 374).

yeah, i always thought the symbiote enhanced the strength of the wearer... by like 10-20%. basically I understood it as this..

Spider-Man: Peter's natural strength + radioactive spider strength + 20%
Venom: Spider-Man's strength (with symbiote) but with Brock's natural strength (which makes him stronger than spider-man)
Gargan: Gargan's natural strength + Scorpion Strength + 20%
 
Easy answer here: Go read Spider-Island: Deadly Foes. In it we see that Jackal was around during the events of Grim Hunt which saw Kaine as a stand-in for Spidey. Kaine has Peter's face, was unmasked, and Jackal knew he had created him.

I never read it but that clears it up then.
 
yeah, i always thought the symbiote enhanced the strength of the wearer... by like 10-20%. basically I understood it as this..

Spider-Man: Peter's natural strength + radioactive spider strength + 20%
Venom: Spider-Man's strength (with symbiote) but with Brock's natural strength (which makes him stronger than spider-man)
Gargan: Gargan's natural strength + Scorpion Strength + 20%

Would that even make Gargan even as strong as Brock's Venom was? After all, Scorpion was about Class 15, so a 20% increase would only make him Class 18, less than Class 25, which Brock was as Venom.
 
The Scorpion could lift 15 tons before the symbiote... and that would put him at a Class 25.

I believe Spider-Man can lift 10 tons, and the Scorpion was always stronger than Spider-Man.

Eddie as Venom could lift about 11 tons, and can lift about 40 tons as Anti-Venom.
 
The Scorpion could lift 15 tons before the symbiote... and that would put him at a Class 25.

I believe Spider-Man can lift 10 tons, and the Scorpion was always stronger than Spider-Man.

Scorpion is Class 15, but a 20% increase would be an increase of 3 tons, leaving him at Class 18, not 25.

Eddie as Venom could lift about 11 tons, and can lift about 40 tons as Anti-Venom.

Eddie Brock as Venom could lift 25 tons, if I remember correctly, though the Marvel website says 11 for some reason. He should be a lot stronger than that, because without his symbiote, he's a lot stronger than Peter is without his powers, so with the symbiote granting him Peter's powers, he should be far stronger than Spider-Man.
 
I'm not a fan of Humberto Ramos's work. His artwork really screwed up great stories like A Death In The Family.
Really? I mean, I don't think his art is as good as Romita Sr, Jr, Ditko, etc, but tbh, his art does work in most areas, if you ask me. I guess you can consider me a fan of his work, lol.
 
Really? I mean, I don't think his art is as good as Romita Sr, Jr, Ditko, etc, but tbh, his art does work in most areas, if you ask me. I guess you can consider me a fan of his work, lol.

His Venom (and other artists with a similar style like Francisco Herrera) is especially terrible, and among the worst Venom designs I have ever seen.
 
Scorpion is Class 15, but a 20% increase would be an increase of 3 tons, leaving him at Class 18, not 25.



Eddie Brock as Venom could lift 25 tons, if I remember correctly, though the Marvel website says 11 for some reason. He should be a lot stronger than that, because without his symbiote, he's a lot stronger than Peter is without his powers, so with the symbiote granting him Peter's powers, he should be far stronger than Spider-Man.

the "classing" system makes my head hurt..

basically... Scorpion Venom, should be stronger than both spider-man and Brock Venom.

as for Anti-venom... we could argue that the symbiote's strength grows with each user, or we could say that mr. negative's powers enhanced it very greatly.
 
The classing system is dumb anyway since its so inconsistent. Spider-Man should be able to lift a medium car easily. Frequently I've seen him portrayed as having to struggle to do such feat. Writers who handle Sabretooth bounce back and forth between him having super-strength to some degree to being just a normal human strength.
 
The classing system is dumb anyway since its so inconsistent. Spider-Man should be able to lift a medium car easily. Frequently I've seen him portrayed as having to struggle to do such feat. Writers who handle Sabretooth bounce back and forth between him having super-strength to some degree to being just a normal human strength.

And Venom has gone from being slightly stronger than Spider-Man to trading blows with powerhouses like the Juggernaut.
 
Is Eddie Brock even possibly going to return as Venom anytime soon?
 
Other than what seems to happen in the "It's Lethal" teaser picture that's going around with him, symby and Flash? I don't think so. The plan seems to be to have Brock and Flash become Obi Wan and Luke type buddies. I'm not sure how Venom #7 goes down (should be out today *twitches in anticipation*), but this could be the closest to your wish. Some have speculated that Venom "returns" via symby's forceful reunion with Brock, he goes around for a bit, has his "story end" as per Web's prediction and then Flash gets back to symbiotey business with AV's fate in the air. People think AV will be suppressed or something, but it looks less and less likely that Brock will bite it.
 
Other than what seems to happen in the "It's Lethal" teaser picture that's going around with him, symby and Flash? I don't think so. The plan seems to be to have Brock and Flash become Obi Wan and Luke type buddies. I'm not sure how Venom #7 goes down (should be out today *twitches in anticipation*), but this could be the closest to your wish. Some have speculated that Venom "returns" via symby's forceful reunion with Brock, he goes around for a bit, has his "story end" as per Web's prediction and then Flash gets back to symbiotey business with AV's fate in the air. People think AV will be suppressed or something, but it looks less and less likely that Brock will bite it.

I'm waiting for Venom I to return to form as he originally was. The badass stalker and predator that Peter feared. That would be awesome.
 
I'm waiting for Venom I to return to form as he originally was. The badass stalker and predator that Peter feared. That would be awesome.

Honestly, I'd like for Venom to NOT be that anymore, if he became one, I'd like a more controlled version, more contained, and still a hero. I really dig what they've done in the "Venom" comics.
 
Is Eddie Brock even possibly going to return as Venom anytime soon?
i hope not. i like Eddie/Anti-Venom and his lunacy. he's pretty much Venom: Lethal Protector any way just with a twist, and it would be really cheap if he becomes a villain again. just wait for Flash and the symbiote to turn. its gonna happen if it hasnt already.
 
Honestly, I'd like for Venom to NOT be that anymore, if he became one, I'd like a more controlled version, more contained, and still a hero. I really dig what they've done in the "Venom" comics.

To me, making Venom an anti-hero contradicts Venom's entire thematic purpose. He is a personification of Spider-Man's dark side. He does what Peter would love to do with his powers, but won't allow himself to. Venom uses his powers for revenge and sadistic fun, not protecting innocent people.

i hope not. i like Eddie/Anti-Venom and his lunacy. he's pretty much Venom: Lethal Protector any way just with a twist, and it would be really cheap if he becomes a villain again. just wait for Flash and the symbiote to turn. its gonna happen if it hasnt already.

Venom was at his best as a villain, he knew everything Peter Parker, and he didn't trigger the spider-sense. I miss when Eddie was Venom and LOVED being Venom. He accepts the symbiote that Peter rejected and seeks revenge. Venom as the Lethal Protector of the Innocent was one of the worst things that happened to the character. Before he was made into that, he was a sadist and a psychopath who didn't give a damn about innocent people. He pretended to, but he certainly had no problem resorting to lethal force on them if they got in his way.
 
That may be the case man, but I really don't think that future is still possible for Brock. At first, years ago, it may have, but they've bent over backwards to make sure that it's impossible or really difficult for that to happen. The oddly ironic thing about that is, the efforts that the writers put forth to ensure he would never be like that again are what reunited my interest in the character. He felt like he grew to me vastly. Now, before I go any further, I know your love of Venom and mine are totally different. By the time I got into the character, like fully knowing him, he was already going in the way of the anti-hero, so that's why for me, it's so easy for me to swallow that he had a chance at redemption and gladly took it. It wasn't part of his original design, but like I said in the other thread, lots of characters have additions that were never part of their original design, but went to make them better. I used Deadpool as an example; he was a bland Deathstroke rip off when he was introduced, and blossomed into a multi-dimensional character study in moral ambiguity, success to loss to loss to success stories, and the inner truth behind a man's identity. Liefeld NEVER would have taken Wade in that direction, but I felt those changes made Deadpool a better character. I could mention how Way has mussed that up, but it's a tale for another day...

In the late 90s and early 2000's I wanted Brock to make a big comeback, but I had no idea what could be done to make things interesting. I think classic Brock had a good run and could have had some alternate paths to make things interesting in his pure villain days, but by the end of the millennium he had been put into a wall. Even if they thought of clever ways to get him back to the stalker days, I didn't, and now (especially with the redemption, and acceptance of his failures) don't want to see it because I fear, in my opinion granted, that it'd be too formulaic.

I've often asked fellow Venom fans what they would do next if they wanted him to return to pure villain/stalker. (Before and after Anti-Venom was even a concept) and sadly, it's always more of the same with minor SHOCK!!! thrown in. Aunt May is torn in half by Brock. Mj is killed. JJJ is torn down to just his mustache follicles. It's a quick shock value moment, that may have Pete enraged for a while, but it's not enough. It's extremely limiting and has to escalate sometime or else it's just a dangling thread that will go nowhere. Obviously Pete can't be killed for good by Brock, but having Brock killed off would suck.

I don't know, maybe I'm not creative enough, but I just don't see the wealth of character progression and growth for Brock if he stayed the same. Now if he regresses, it will be seen as incredibly forced and detrimental.

Sorry man, I get that this sucks and is frustrating, but it doesn't look like anything will change for a while. Who knows, another character may step up to that role in some form, but for Brock, I think that this will be his future for the extended future.
 
That may be the case man, but I really don't think that future is still possible for Brock. At first, years ago, it may have, but they've bent over backwards to make sure that it's impossible or really difficult for that to happen. The oddly ironic thing about that is, the efforts that the writers put forth to ensure he would never be like that again are what reunited my interest in the character. He felt like he grew to me vastly. Now, before I go any further, I know your love of Venom and mine are totally different. By the time I got into the character, like fully knowing him, he was already going in the way of the anti-hero, so that's why for me, it's so easy for me to swallow that he had a chance at redemption and gladly took it. It wasn't part of his original design, but like I said in the other thread, lots of characters have additions that were never part of their original design, but went to make them better. I used Deadpool as an example; he was a bland Deathstroke rip off when he was introduced, and blossomed into a multi-dimensional character study in moral ambiguity, success to loss to loss to success stories, and the inner truth behind a man's identity. Liefeld NEVER would have taken Wade in that direction, but I felt those changes made Deadpool a better character. I could mention how Way has mussed that up, but it's a tale for another day...

In the late 90s and early 2000's I wanted Brock to make a big comeback, but I had no idea what could be done to make things interesting. I think classic Brock had a good run and could have had some alternate paths to make things interesting in his pure villain days, but by the end of the millennium he had been put into a wall. Even if they thought of clever ways to get him back to the stalker days, I didn't, and now (especially with the redemption, and acceptance of his failures) don't want to see it because I fear, in my opinion granted, that it'd be too formulaic.

I've often asked fellow Venom fans what they would do next if they wanted him to return to pure villain/stalker. (Before and after Anti-Venom was even a concept) and sadly, it's always more of the same with minor SHOCK!!! thrown in. Aunt May is torn in half by Brock. Mj is killed. JJJ is torn down to just his mustache follicles. It's a quick shock value moment, that may have Pete enraged for a while, but it's not enough. It's extremely limiting and has to escalate sometime or else it's just a dangling thread that will go nowhere. Obviously Pete can't be killed for good by Brock, but having Brock killed off would suck.

I don't know, maybe I'm not creative enough, but I just don't see the wealth of character progression and growth for Brock if he stayed the same. Now if he regresses, it will be seen as incredibly forced and detrimental.

Sorry man, I get that this sucks and is frustrating, but it doesn't look like anything will change for a while. Who knows, another character may step up to that role in some form, but for Brock, I think that this will be his future for the extended future.

I'm 19, so Venom was an anti-hero in the comics when I was growing up. I got into the character through Spider-Man: The Animated Series, and I have the image of him from the show's intro deep in my subconscious. I remembered how throughout his appearance, he put Peter at constant unease, by showing up randomly, even when he was with MJ, Aunt May, et cetera. Peter was the only one who knew of the evil in their midst, and his loved ones were confused by his paranoia. Venom even stalked Peter in his nightmares.

Later on, I heard about Venom in the comics prior to becoming an anti-hero, how he was a badass villain who Peter was afraid of when he was out there. A relentless predator stalking Spider-Man who could strike at any time without warning or mercy. This is Venom to me.

Granted, Venom hasn't been this way for years, but when Marvel decided to flat out abandon Eddie Brock as a host, I was disappointed that he wouldn't get make a great tour de force comeback. I was further disappointed that this Angelo Fortunato turned out to be a chump who died an issue after being introduced.

Then I heard that Mac Gargan, the Scorpion, would be Venom. This sounded interesting. He could be even be a bigger threat to Spider-Man than Brock was, and even harder to beat. For all his power, he was a chump who made Venom look like an even bigger joke. Where once the name Venom inspired fear in Peter Parker, it now inspired laughter.

Then I heard that Eddie Brock might come back, only for him to turn into Anti-Venom. Anti-Venom? What the hell is this? What was wrong with him being Venom? He was awesome until Marvel screwed him up.

So I heard that Gargan's Venom was over. Yay! Who's going to be Venom now? Flash Thompson? Are you kidding me? And he's not even a villain? What's the point of that? We already have two heroic symbiotes!

So now, I'm waiting until my generation of Spider-Man fans become writers. Maybe they'll love Venom enough to make him terrifying again.
 
Venom's only good appearances were the first 2 in ASM #299/300 & ASM #316/317.... after that, the character became a one-trick pony and got boring really fast.

I love what's going on with Flash & the symbiote, so I hope we get to see more of this for a few years... :up:

:yay:
 
Venom's only good appearances were the first 2 in ASM #299/300 & ASM #316/317.... after that, the character became a one-trick pony and got boring really fast.

I love what's going on with Flash & the symbiote, so I hope we get to see more of this for a few years... :up:

:yay:

But there's plenty of potential for the original Venom that was never even explored. What about giving Venom other scores to settle, besides his grudge with Spider-Man?
No one seems to thought of the fact that he has all of Peter's memories (up until Peter removed it) for anything other than Venom knowing who Peter was, who he loved, where he lived at the time. Think about: What would it be like to have the entire consciousness of another person in your mind? Where did the symbiote originate? Did it do anything before we even met it? There's a lot you can do with Venom that doesn't compromise his character like turning him into an anti-hero did.
Plus, why is that Carnage can come back, but the original Venom can't?
 
Coming from me, this is gonna seem weird...but there is waaaay too much Venom talk going on here and waaaay too little Spider-Man/Spider-Island/I hate Carlie talk.
 
lol that's a good point, I forgot for a sec which thread this was.

So does anyone think that the end of this event will have any major or significant changes to the status quo?
 
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