The Avengers The Avengers: News and Speculation - Part 27A sub-se - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 53

[Crimson King]

Yea i hated that too. Hulk's famous quote is "You wouldn't like me when i'm angry!" not "You wouldn't like me when my heart rate goes too fast!" I'm baffled as to how people can overlook that.

It's "You wouldn't like me when I'm hungry." Get it right!

 

[jaqua99]

This shoulda been the entire third act:

One huge, epic battle between Cap, The Commandos & Hydra. Something in the vein of Spielberg's D-Day opening for Saving Private Ryan.

Agreed 100% Yup

 

[kedrell]

I suppose you can use body language, etc. to get character stuff across. But that's not the Hulk. He talks. He sometimes talks a blue-streak. You deny him that and IMO you have fundamentally altered the character and I start adding INO to the first letter of his name.

 

[weezerspider]

Has anyone mentioned that in TIH Banner swallowed a flash drive whole, turned into a giant monster, rampaged around, turned back into himself after about twelve hours, and was able to regurgitate it whole, undamaged, with just his fingers?

To me that's lazier writing than letting the audience assume Cap has to nosedive the plane

It was more for humorous purposes than anything else. Plus its not the climax. It's a small detail compared the Cap's "death scene".

On the topic of best MCU film and best comic book film, I have to say that TDK is easily my favorite comic book film. Some of this stems from Batman and Joker being two of my three favorite fictional characters(Smeagol/Gollum is the other), but also I feel TDK has some depth to it that none of the MCU films have. I'm not saying that films can't be "just for fun" or that depth automatically equals better, I'm just saying my personal preference is towards material with more depth. Add that with a great interpretation of the characters I love, a great story and you have my favorite comic book film. My second favorite comic book film has got to be Spiderman 2. Again, I feel it has more depth and a much stronger narrative than anything from MCU.
That said, I really enjoy all of the MCU films. However, I have issues with all of them. Like many have previously stated, I feel CA:TFA's last act is very weak and rushed. I feel many of the earth scenes in Thor are rather bland, TIH's narrative doesn't really pick up until he heads home, IM's last act is rushed and IM2 is over-crowded. I honestly don't know if I could pick a favorite. They are all around the same level for me. IM is often considered the best, but I feel that film is a tad overrated(ironically I find its sequel a tad underrated). Captain America is my favorite hero of the bunch, so CA:TFA probably gets the nod, but I also really love TIH.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

Has anyone mentioned that in TIH Banner swallowed a flash drive whole, turned into a giant monster, rampaged around, turned back into himself after about twelve hours, and was able to regurgitate it whole, undamaged, with just his fingers?

To me that's lazier writing than letting the audience assume Cap has to nosedive the plane

So its the miniscule bit with the flash drive in TIH vs. Cap's non-existing third act? Bollocks.

TIH not only has a third act, it actually comes full circle with the protagonist realizing in the end that his original mission didn't need to be destroyed but rather conquered.

With Cap, once Steve became Cap the movie went to **** & all we got was "Avengers, here we come!".

Why show Captain America in all his glory when we can just do a 2-second montage, a 5-second Bucky death (also to set up future installments) and just freeze him already so he can be an Avenger?

^Not exactly inspired writing, if you ask me.

 

[The Morningstar]

I suppose you can use body language, etc. to get character stuff across. But that's not the Hulk. He talks. He sometimes talks a blue-streak. You deny him that and IMO you have fundamentally altered the character and I start adding INO to the first letter of his name.

I don't see how that's not the Hulk. We're talking about a mainly physical character here. He's basically a man child. A really, really big and really, really strong man child. I think body language is the best way to get his feelings and thoughts across.

Although i do like how they do it in the cartoon. Especially in the first episodes he was in, where he and Banner were having an argument inside their head.

 

[BobbyCorwin88]

My biggest problem with TIH, aside from the occasional fake-looking Hulk, is that the heart rate and not the anger is tied to Hulk's transformation. I found the fact that Banner's intimacy with Betty could potentially make him Hulk-out to be laughable, and it also begs the question of whether he could also transform during a cardio-vascular exercise and other non-anger related activities. I hope in TA, they will go back to the anger being key for Banner to Hulk-out.

I'll agree with you on the arousal Hulk-out (which honestly is hilarious if you picture that in your head t but if you remember when the heart rate change was used, it was always in instances of extreme danger or instances that would in effect mimic anger. For me, that makes the Hulk all the more threatening of a presence for Banner to have to deal with and in effect, want to get rid of. He not only has to worry about Hulking out when angry, but also in other moments of extreme stress and anxiety. I wouldn't say extreme cardiovascular exercise would trigger since when we did see evidence of that in the film, it was Banner running from a strike team trying to take him in, obviously causing him a lot of stress/anger/anxiety.

Again, the film very clearly established Banner as trying to control that side of him by intense training and then ultimately at the end, when he accepts the Hulk as an alternate side to his persona, he can then trigger a Hulk out of his own fruition. It's really pretty intriguing if you think about it. So now we have a Banner that doesn't have to worry about Hulking out through fear/stress/anxiety, but only when he's truly angered. I think it was important to see that evolution take place since obviously Banner couldn't control this thing from the get-go.

YES! Holy God, yes! THAT is what I've been waiting for. If he doesn't talk(and I don't mean just 5 or 6 words in the entirety of a movie as that's just an insult) then he's not really a character. He's just a big special effect. And having him and Banner play off each other is critical. That's what makes the complete Banner/Hulk character interesting. On their own they can get pretty dull.

Then why did I clearly see that duality without Hulk saying anything? You see the two extremes very clearly personified. Banner is intelligent and articulate and Hulk is not. The two personas are largely at odds with one another. As far as the movie universe is concerned, the Hulk is still a fairly new creature so it makes sense that he wouldn't be able to form coherent sentences right away. I'm ok with Hulk speaking, but I think it was important to understand that he really isn't able to all at once. As Banner learns to control and understand the Hulk, so to does the Hulk start to understand humanity and where his place in all of it is.

I never thought at any point in TIH that the Hulk was simply a giant special effect. He had plenty of character and showed it well. Just because he didn't speak as much doesn't mean he was void of emotion and feeling. We're obviously going to be seeing a talking Hulk soon, but it's very important I think, for the audience to see that evolution.

 

[Kirmit]

I don't see how that's not the Hulk. We're talking about a mainly physical character here. He's basically a man child. A really, really big and really, really strong man child. I think body language is the best way to get his feelings and thoughts across.

Although i do like how they do it in the cartoon. Especially in the first episodes he was in, where he and Banner were having an argument inside their head.

Hulk has always talked, what he thinks and feels is just as interesting as the physical acts.

 

[Poni_Boy]

YES! Holy God, yes! THAT is what I've been waiting for. If he doesn't talk(and I don't mean just 5 or 6 words in the entirety of a movie as that's just an insult) then he's not really a character. He's just a big special effect. And having him and Banner play off each other is critical. That's what makes the complete Banner/Hulk character interesting. On their own they can get pretty dull.

This comment always bugs me for two reasons:

1. Characters don't need to speak to convey emotion (in the first Hulk movie when he smashes up the lab; in the second movie when he walks away from the fire with Betty and the cave scene) or to become characters. Just look at The Artist from last year, a movie so many people loved the hell out of.

2. Has anyone wondered if maybe, just maybe, they've tried and it looked stupid? What if Joss tries to do it in The Avengers, give Hulk full lines and conversation, and it looks outright DUMB. Would you guys want that to be kept in the movie just so that it's more accurate to the comics character?

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

If Hulk started yappin' away in TIH, the movie woulda fell apart.

That's something that was better left for a second film - hence Banner learning to control the beast.

 

[The Morningstar]

So its the miniscule bit with the flash drive in TIH vs. Cap's non-existing third act? Bollocks.

TIH not only has a third act, it actually comes full circle with the protagonist realizing in the end that his original mission didn't need to be destroyed but rather conquered.

With Cap, once Steve became Cap the movie went to **** & all we got was "Avengers, here we come!".

Why show Captain America in all his glory when we can just do a 2-second montage, a 5-second Bucky death (also to set up future installments) and just freeze him already so he can be an Avenger?

^Not exactly inspired writing, if you ask me.

But that whole take of the Hulk is pretty wrong and shallow. Hulk shouldn't be something Banner can just switch on or switch off. Hulk shouldn't be something Banner can control. Hulk should be an entity with his own mind, who develops his own sense of right and wrong.

Hulk is supposed to be a literal personification of the rage bottled up inside Banner, and ourselves. That's what made the character relatable and interesting beyond seeing him just smash **** up. Hulk should resent Banner for being a puny human and not being able to assert his rage or confront the things that make him angry.

And what makes it even more interesting is, Banner does get some kind of enjoyment out of it. Hulk is, to some extent, what Banner wants to be, Hulk does what Banner wants to be able to do. Obviously i'm not talking about actually smashing stuff up. But not being a emotionally stunted wimp, for lack of a better term.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

This comment always bugs me for two reasons:

1. Characters don't need to speak to convey emotion (in the first Hulk movie when he smashes up the lab; in the second movie when he walks away from the fire with Betty and the cave scene) or to become characters. Just look at The Artist from last year, a movie so many people loved the hell out of.

2. Has anyone wondered if maybe, just maybe, they've tried and it looked stupid? What if Joss tries to do it in The Avengers, give Hulk full lines and conversation, and it looks outright DUMB. Would you guys want that to be kept in the movie just so that it's more accurate to the comics character?

There are two instances in Ang's Hulk where he talks and it just doesn't work. At all. Its kinda hilarious.

You gotta be careful with Hulk yappin' away on film, I tell you what.

 

[Chewy]

It was more for humorous purposes than anything else. Plus its not the climax. It's a small detail compared the Cap's "death scene".

The plane's moving fast. The landing gear is damaged. Cap doesn't know if he'll be able to dispose of the bombs in another way without them detonating. If he travels much further he starts to near a populated area. He nosedives the plane.

I don't really know why people take such issue with it. Sure there could have been a line about autopilot being locked, which would have explained why Cap couldn't have aimed it downward and 'chuted out. But that's minor

 

[Crimson King]

This comment always bugs me for two reasons:

1. Characters don't need to speak to convey emotion (in the first Hulk movie when he smashes up the lab; in the second movie when he walks away from the fire with Betty and the cave scene) or to become characters. Just look at The Artist from last year, a movie so many people loved the hell out of.

2. Has anyone wondered if maybe, just maybe, they've tried and it looked stupid? What if Joss tries to do it in The Avengers, give Hulk full lines and conversation, and it looks outright DUMB. Would you guys want that to be kept in the movie just so that it's more accurate to the comics character?

I think you'll agree that it makes for a richer character when they can both speak and show characterization through emotion. It isn't an either/or situation. Hulk needs to talk at some point.

And I don't buy that the reason he hasn't spoken is that it looks dumb. There have been plenty of other CGI characters that had lines. It's easily done.

 

[Kirmit]

There are two instances in Ang's Hulk where he talks and it just doesn't work. At all. Its kinda hilarious.

You gotta be careful with Hulk yappin' away on film, I tell you what.

How didn't they work? .

 

[Poni_Boy]

I'll agree with you on the arousal Hulk-out (which honestly is hilarious if you picture that in your head t but if you remember when the heart rate change was used, it was always in instances of extreme danger or instances that would in effect mimic anger. For me, that makes the Hulk all the more threatening of a presence for Banner to have to deal with and in effect, want to get rid of. He not only has to worry about Hulking out when angry, but also in other moments of extreme stress and anxiety. I wouldn't say extreme cardiovascular exercise would trigger since when we did see evidence of that in the film, it was Banner running from a strike team trying to take him in, obviously causing him a lot of stress/anger/anxiety.

Again, the film very clearly established Banner as trying to control that side of him by intense training and then ultimately at the end, when he accepts the Hulk as an alternate side to his persona, he can then trigger a Hulk out of his own fruition. It's really pretty intriguing if you think about it. So now we have a Banner that doesn't have to worry about Hulking out through fear/stress/anxiety, but only when he's truly angered. I think it was important to see that evolution take place since obviously Banner couldn't control this thing from the get-go.

Then why did I clearly see that duality without Hulk saying anything? You see the two extremes very clearly personified. Banner is intelligent and articulate and Hulk is not. The two personas are largely at odds with one another. As far as the movie universe is concerned, the Hulk is still a fairly new creature so it makes sense that he wouldn't be able to form coherent sentences right away. I'm ok with Hulk speaking, but I think it was important to understand that he really isn't able to all at once. As Banner learns to control and understand the Hulk, so to does the Hulk start to understand humanity and where his place in all of it is.

I never thought at any point in TIH that the Hulk was simply a giant special effect. He had plenty of character and showed it well. Just because he didn't speak as much doesn't mean he was void of emotion and feeling. We're obviously going to be seeing a talking Hulk soon, but it's very important I think, for the audience to see that evolution.

What are people on about the heart rate thing? He says it before his first transformation, "Please, you don't want to get me angry". The heart rate monitor is a visual storytelling device so that the audience can follow along with what's in Banner's head. It's pretty smart, when you think about it, even though the forced almost-sex-scene was silly.

And THIS is what I've always been saying. In TIH you can see the character's communication pattern evolve as the movie progresses, which would lead to Hulk speaking; maybe even as intelligently as Banner one day. But if the audience doesn't see that progression, it's just a big CGI thing that talks. Don't know about you guys from from a visual perspective Hulk in TIH looked detailed and amazing, of course he isn't going to look real. He's... you know, not.

 

[The Morningstar]

There are two instances in Ang's Hulk where he talks and it just doesn't work. At all. Its kinda hilarious.

You gotta be careful with Hulk yappin' away on film, I tell you what.

Where does Hulk talk in Ang's film? Apart from the dream scene where he smashes through the mirror and calls Banner a puny human and at the end when he screams "take it aaaalllll!". Two excellent moments that show more characterisation for the Hulk character than TIH in it's entirety.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

it was extremely bad ass when hulk spoke in ang lee's Hulk, I get the feeling whedon will give us some epic hulk dialogue....

 

[Chewy]

So its the miniscule bit with the flash drive in TIH vs. Cap's non-existing third act? Bollocks.

TIH not only has a third act, it actually comes full circle with the protagonist realizing in the end that his original mission didn't need to be destroyed but rather conquered.

With Cap, once Steve became Cap the movie went to **** & all we got was "Avengers, here we come!".

Why show Captain America in all his glory when we can just do a 2-second montage, a 5-second Bucky death (also to set up future installments) and just freeze him already so he can be an Avenger?

^Not exactly inspired writing, if you ask me.

The montage works. It demonstrated the passage of time and showed that Cap had some actual experience under his belt beyond one rescue. The movie stumbles a bit during the Bucky death scene and the transition from that to the Red Skull plane fight. It's rushed and all feels a bit off. It picks back up after Cap kisses Peggy goodbye.

 

[Poni_Boy]

And I don't buy that the reason he hasn't spoken is that it looks dumb. There have been plenty of other CGI characters that had lines. It's easily done.

Are you talking about Abomination? Cause I think he looked horrendous when he talked. Really made the character glaringly fake. What completely CGI character on a Marvel Studios budget looked great when he talked?

 

[The Morningstar]

It was, and it was perfect demonstration of what Hulk is about. Anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the Hulk character. Hulk, at first, resents Banner. He views him as a "puny human" who is emotionally stunted and weak.

And the "take it all!" part is another perfect demonstration of what Hulk is about. It showed that his rage, the emotion, makes his power practically limitless. His rage fuelled his power to the point where Absorbing Man couldn't handle it anymore. It was a great way to show Hulk's power without him just smashing the **** out of some bad guy.

 

[BobbyCorwin88]

What are people on about the heart rate thing? He says it before his first transformation, "Please, you don't want to get me angry". The heart rate monitor is a visual storytelling device so that the audience can follow along with what's in Banner's head. It's pretty smart, when you think about it, even though the forced almost-sex-scene was silly.

And THIS is what I've always been saying. In TIH you can see the character's communication pattern evolve as the movie progresses, which would lead to Hulk speaking; maybe even as intelligently as Banner one day. But if the audience doesn't see that progression, it's just a big CGI thing that talks. Don't know about you guys from from a visual perspective Hulk in TIH looked detailed and amazing, of course he isn't going to look real. He's... you know, not.

The heart rate monitor was smart, no doubt about it. And if you think about it practically, Banner had to know while he was training where his threshold would be before a Hulk-out. It just makes sense.

I'm in agreement with you big time. Hulk had such a strong physical presence in TIH, that he didn't really need words to convey what he was thinking or doing. I really did get it just by watching him. Yes, the Hulk talks in the comics and in the cartoon (which isn't really his best representation) but you do have to be careful when bringing that to live action. What is it going to look like? What will he say? How will they make it not so hokey? That's why I'm happy we've seen it as a clear evolution and not something he can just do all at once. So if and when he does speak, it should be believable and not out of left field.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Aaaan like every conversation about Hulk on film, now it just turns into an Ang Lee's is better/worse than Marvel Studios' version pissing contest. I'm out.

 

[Kirmit]

When Hulk talks it's the purest form of speech, he doesn't complicate sentences, he doesn't lie, he just says things as they are, I think that's important to the character and the team, smashing and body language only get you so far. I don't mind if at the beginning of TA they think he's a big dumb raging beast and then are actually shocked that he can speak, that he does think and can be dealt with rationally.

 

[The Morningstar]

What are people on about the heart rate thing? He says it before his first transformation, "Please, you don't want to get me angry". The heart rate monitor is a visual storytelling device so that the audience can follow along with what's in Banner's head. It's pretty smart, when you think about it, even though the forced almost-sex-scene was silly.

And THIS is what I've always been saying. In TIH you can see the character's communication pattern evolve as the movie progresses, which would lead to Hulk speaking; maybe even as intelligently as Banner one day. But if the audience doesn't see that progression, it's just a big CGI thing that talks. Don't know about you guys from from a visual perspective Hulk in TIH looked detailed and amazing, of course he isn't going to look real. He's... you know, not.

Why do we need a heart rate monitor to tell us what the character is feeling? And it's inaccurate to the character. Banner doesn't "hulk out" because his heart rate goes too fast. He "hulks out" from an emotional response. Namely anger.

And TIH had horrible CGI. Looked like he was made of plastic, especially in the scene where they were in the cave and his skin seemed to be made of some kind of waterproof latex that made him look slimey.