The Avengers The Avengers: News and Speculation - Part 27A sub-se - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 53

[Spideyfan93]

Tony: Hey ya Bruce!...huh, why do you look like that actor Mark Ruffalo?
Bruce: It was a side effect of the gamma rays I didn't see coming...
Tony: Uh huh, but that green freak inside you was expected?
Bruce: (gets angry)

THERE'S THE BANNER I REMEMBER!

 

[Chewy]

The Hulk is not defined by his ability to talk. There's a much stronger story in Banner's struggle to be human again than in the Hulk being able to have a conversation about college basketball.

I like how you belittle his view on the matter

The Hulk's ability to talk is tied in to the Hulk's struggle to be human at all. The Hulk's struggle to contain his rage and be an asset to humanity rather than a blemish. Which is as strong a story as Banner's struggle to be human again

 

[The Morningstar]

They just didn't work for me. They immediately removed me from reality (which I was already struggling to hang on to) and placed me in Toon Town (the Hulk's dialogue reminded me of the gorilla bouncer that throws Bob Hoskins into some garbage cans in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?)



There's no guarantee so far that the Banner from TIH is the same Banner from Avengers, not to mention, without Norton its not exactly the smoothest transition.



There's nothing laughable about TIH hulk. He's out of control in TIH. He's Banner in a heightened state - i.e. the scene where he compares the transformations to the college study he did to Betty in the car.

Without control, with resistance, having Hulk talk just wouldn't work. The idea of the film's end with Banner controlling Hulk was a good way to begin that evolution though.



Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.

The Hulk is not defined by his ability to talk. There's a much stronger story in Banner's struggle to be human again than in the Hulk being able to have a conversation about college basketball.

No, you clearly don't understand the Hulk character.

Hulk, the character, is defined by his resentment of Banner. Is defined by his struggle to find his place in the world and not be considered a monster.

He is not defined by Banner's struggle to be human again. Banner is a completely separate character. And as a matter of fact, Banner learns to accept and live side by side with his other persona. There is no attempt to control Hulk, but a mutual understanding does grow between them. See this is what you don't understand. Hulk and Banner are COMPLETELY separate entities. Hulk isn't just a "heightened" or more angry version of Banner. He is the very personification of Banner's pent up rage. That is what makes the character compelling and relatable. We all have those bottled up feelings, whether it's anger or other emotions. What also makes it more compelling is, as was touched on by Ang's movie, Banner is actually afraid that he might enjoy it, because Hulk is what Banner isn't. A being of pure, unrestrained emotion.

Explain to me why it was acceptable for Hulk to say "HULK SMASH!" in TIH but he can't say "PUNY HUMAN" in Ang's version? Even though the way it was used in TIH was superfluous and just a catchphrase and in Ang's it was used for characterisation and depth?

You show a fundamental misunderstanding of the Hulk character.

 

[Chewy]

The Hulk is a story about duality. When you focus too strongly on one of his personas over the other you lose that. That's what people are getting at when they talk about the Hulk only being a plot device and not speaking. As he gets more comfortable with the people around him, he should be able to converse with them, even if it's minimal. He's not *just* a monster

 

[Rock Sexton]

I like how you belittle his view on the matter

The Hulk's ability to talk is tied in to the Hulk's struggle to be human at all. The Hulk's struggle to contain his rage and be an asset to humanity rather than a blemish. Which is as strong a story as Banner's struggle to be human again

My issue with the speech is this .....

All the 3rd person referencing of himself comes off very neanderthal .... and when I think of neanderthal, I think clumsy almost goofy. So my personal opinion is that they don't overdo it. I laugh the few times I've seen clips of him in EMH, because it's too much. As a fan who was not originally a comic book fan, I struggle to take it seriously. To have an undeveloped personality (i.e. Hulk) go around talking everyone's ear off right off the bat would come off funny and would kind of strip him of his natural threatening side .... the character they're all not so supposed to be sure about right now. I'm curious to see how they go about it this time.

 

[Quasimod0]

Still like him best in EMH. He has a personality at least

 

[MrGreen]

I think that what both Hulk and TIH tried but somewhat failed to do (to some people unlike me) was what Ape's Caesars did. A full but silent character that everyone cares about.
I agree that he doesn't needs to be silent but I also think he (at least in the movies) doesn't needs to be Joe Fixit (I hated that persona). Something like Planet Hulk is what I think would be great. Talks but not too much.
Everyone talks about how good is the Hulk in EMH but I haven't seen that show, sorry.

 

[Splat]

It's absolutely the same Banner from TIH, read Fury's Big Week.

 

[lixdexia]

Still like him best in EMH. He has a personality at least

personally i liked him best in justice league

 

[Chewy]

My issue with the speech is this .....

All the 3rd person referencing of himself comes off very neanderthal .... and when I think of neanderthal, I think clumsy almost goofy. So my personal opinion is that they don't overdo it. I laugh the few times I've seen clips of him in EMH, because it's too much. As a fan who was not originally a comic book fan, I struggle to take it seriously. To have an undeveloped personality (i.e. Hulk) go around talking everyone's ear off right off the bat would come off funny and would kind of strip him of his natural threatening side .... the character they're all not so sure about right now. I'm curious to see how they go about it this time.

He doesn't need to talk everyone's ear off. But in a team scenario, where he's helping 5 other people stop an alien invasion, he shouldn't be completely mute. It's a fine line to walk

 

[TheVileOne]

Hulk talks normally in The Avengers animated series and doesn't constantly talk in the third person. He speaks in complete sentences just like the FIRST ISSUES OF THE AVENGERS COMICS!

 

[Poni_Boy]

I wasn't talking about Abomination. I'm referring to ILM and WETA characters. They're both working on Avengers, right?

WETA is not associated with Avengers. ILM is handling non-character effects.

Again, what Marvel Studios characters -- since this film has a budget and limited resources -- have you seen on screen to date that are completely CGI like Hulk and don't look off/fake when they talk? Aside from Abomination, there isn't one that comes to mind that even talked at all.

So we have NO IDEA if Hulk is going to talk in Avengers because if they try it and it looks dumb you can bet your bottom dollar Joss will cut it the hell out of the movie. Marvel Studios does not take leaps of faith with the suspension of disbelief in their films. Hence, the motion capture performance for Ruffalo. They need it to be viscerally engaging.

 

[TheVileOne]

So it looked off fake to you in Incredible Hulk Poni_Boy?

Or what about in the Iron Man films with War Machine, Iron Man, and Iron Monger?

 

[Rock Sexton]

Hulk talks normally in The Avengers animated series and doesn't constantly talk in the third person. He speaks in complete sentences just like the FIRST ISSUES OF THE AVENGERS COMICS!

In the comics he spends quite a bit more time as the Hulk than he does in these movies. The reader becomes acclimated over time to his conversational abilities. There-in lies the problem because in the movies we only get him for a handful of moments.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Hulk, the character, is defined by his resentment of Banner. Is defined by his struggle to find his place in the world and not be considered a monster.

He is not defined by Banner's struggle to be human again. Banner is a completely separate character. And as a matter of fact, Banner learns to accept and live side by side with his other persona. There is no attempt to control Hulk, but a mutual understanding does grow between them. See this is what you don't understand. Hulk and Banner are COMPLETELY separate entities. Hulk isn't just a "heightened" or more angry version of Banner. He is the very personification of Banner's pent up rage. That is what makes the character compelling and relatable. We all have those bottled up feelings, whether it's anger or other emotions. What also makes it more compelling is, as was touched on by Ang's movie, Banner is actually afraid that he might enjoy it, because Hulk is what Banner isn't. A being of pure, unrestrained emotion.

Explain to me why it was acceptable for Hulk to say "HULK SMASH!" in TIH but he can't say "PUNY HUMAN" in Ang's version? Even though the way it was used in TIH was superfluous and just a catchphrase and in Ang's it was used for characterisation and depth?

You show a fundamental misunderstanding of the Hulk character.

And how were they supposed to show that all in one movie? Cause to me it seems like that mythology was built on over years and years of comics stories. What Alexi is saying, if I understand him right, is that they DID get the character's cinematic interpretation right for an origin movie; which is what TIH was -- which was also very well received by critics and audience members. In a sequel or Avengers or TV show is when they can further explain the duality of the character when Banner attempts to control Hulk.

What happened in TIH isn't any more of a drastic change to a character's origin as eliminating Donald Blake from the Thor movie or skipping over Iron Man being Tony's bodyguard.

 

[TheVileOne]

In the comics he spends quite a bit more time as the Hulk than he does in these movies. The reader becomes acclimated over time to his conversational abilities. There-in lies the problem because in the movies we only get him for a handful of moments.

That's because the movies so far generally refused to develop the Hulk's personality and character. He's extremely one-note when we know in the comics he is far from that.

 

[Rock Sexton]

And how were they supposed to show that all in one movie? Cause to me it seems like that mythology was built on over years and years of comics stories. What Alexi is saying, if I understand him right, is that they DID get the character's cinematic interpretation right for an origin movie; which is what TIH was -- which was also very well received by critics and audience members. In a sequel or Avengers or TV show is when they can further explain the duality of the character when Banner attempts to control Hulk.

What happened in TIH isn't any more of a drastic change to a character's origin as eliminating Donald Blake from the Thor movie or skipping over Iron Man being Tony's bodyguard.

This.

 

[Chewy]

What happened in TIH isn't any more of a drastic change to a character's origin as eliminating Donald Blake from the Thor movie or skipping over Iron Man being Tony's bodyguard.

Agree with this very much

But when people talk as though Hulk shouldn't talk moving forward, and specifically in regards to the scenario presented in this film, I just don't get it

 

[Rock Sexton]

That's because the movies so far generally refused to develop the Hulk's personality and character. He's extremely one-note when we know in the comics he is far from that.

Again, you have that issue because of the screen time factor for a CGI character like that. You only have so much time to do everything .... especially when you're talking his moments of amazing feats, developing his speech, as well as his issues with Banner.

 

[Poni_Boy]

So it looked off fake to you in Incredible Hulk Poni_Boy?

Or what about in the Iron Man films with War Machine, Iron Man, and Iron Monger?

Like I stated earlier, when Abomination spoke in TIH it completely threw me off. It didn't look right. It's hard enough seeing two completely CG characters go to town on each other (and I, personally, perfer linebacker Hulk over le puffy Hulk) but when something that you can readily associate yourself with, such as speech and lip movement, is out of whack it takes me even more outside of the film.

I don't remember any of the Iron Man characters having CG integrated organic lips that move with the characters' speech. Do you?

 

[The Morningstar]

And how were they supposed to show that all in one movie? Cause to me it seems like that mythology was built on over years and years of comics stories. What Alexi is saying, if I understand him right, is that they DID get the character's cinematic interpretation right for an origin movie; which is what TIH was -- which was also very well received by critics and audience members. In a sequel or Avengers or TV show is when they can further explain the duality of the character when Banner attempts to control Hulk.

What happened in TIH isn't any more of a drastic change to a character's origin as eliminating Donald Blake from the Thor movie or skipping over Iron Man being Tony's bodyguard.

Very well received by critics? Not really. It was practically the same critical reception as Ang's movie, which is for some reason maligned.

How are they supposed to show that in one movie? Well Ang's movie did it much better. A couple bits of body language, a single line of dialogue, showed Hulk is a separate, free thinking character all of his own. TIH had the "leave me alone" bit, which was awesome.

Alexi is saying he doesn't want Hulk to be his own individual character. He wants Hulk to be an extension of Banner. Which is incorrect. That is not what Hulk is. The scene at the end of TIH where Banner consciously raises his heart beat so he can initiate a "hulk out" sums up what i think is completely wrong with that interpretation of the character. It's mind boggling that anyone who likes and understands the Hulk can accept that version. The idea that Banner can switch Hulk on at will is just sooooo stupid and takes away pretty much everything that makes Hulk what he is.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Agree with this very much

But when people talk as though Hulk shouldn't talk moving forward, and specifically in regards to the scenario presented in this film, I just don't get it

They absolutely need to get Hulk's cognitive abilities a steady evolution. Whether that means he speaks in full sentences now or in another movie they need to SHOW that he is growing in his abilities/capabilities. Just like Thor needs to learn how to travel between dimensions on his own and Cap needs to prove his worth as a leader for The Avengers team. Character progression, when it's forced it doesn't work.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

My issue with the speech is this .....

All the 3rd person referencing of himself comes off very neanderthal .... and when I think of neanderthal, I think clumsy almost goofy. So my personal opinion is that they don't overdo it. I laugh the few times I've seen clips of him in EMH, because it's too much. As a fan who was not originally a comic book fan, I struggle to take it seriously. To have an undeveloped personality (i.e. Hulk) go around talking everyone's ear off right off the bat would come off funny and would kind of strip him of his natural threatening side .... the character they're all not so supposed to be sure about right now.

Agreed on all accounts.

Still like him best in EMH. He has a personality at least

The Hulk in EMH is a blatant rip-off of Wolverine in X-Men The Animated Series.

Short sentences, gets mad, walks away, etc.

 

[The Morningstar]

Again, you have that issue because of the screen time factor for a CGI character like that. You only have so much time to do everything .... especially when you're talking his moments of amazing feats, developing his speech, as well as his issues with Banner.

All it takes is a bit of body language to characterise someone. The idea that Hulk himself isn't on screen enough to become a full character of his own is a cop out.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

And how were they supposed to show that all in one movie? Cause to me it seems like that mythology was built on over years and years of comics stories. What Alexi is saying, if I understand him right, is that they DID get the character's cinematic interpretation right for an origin movie; which is what TIH was -- which was also very well received by critics and audience members. In a sequel or Avengers or TV show is when they can further explain the duality of the character when Banner attempts to control Hulk.

What happened in TIH isn't any more of a drastic change to a character's origin as eliminating Donald Blake from the Thor movie or skipping over Iron Man being Tony's bodyguard.They absolutely need to get Hulk's cognitive abilities a steady evolution. Whether that means he speaks in full sentences now or in another movie they need to SHOW that he is growing in his abilities/capabilities. Just like Thor needs to learn how to travel between dimensions on his own and Cap needs to prove his worth as a leader for The Avengers team. Character progression, when it's forced it doesn't work.

This. Specially the bolded.