The Avengers The Avengers: News and Speculation - Part 27A sub-se - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

[Whiskey Tango]

Noon EST, 9 am PST

Is this tomorrow?

 

[Nevincer]

I saw "Wrath of The Titans" last night and it really shows how much you can do with 150 million dollar budget, they really didn't skimp out on the fantasy aspect.

Do you have to see Clash to enjoy Wrath? Cos I heard the former wasn't very good.

 

[BigThor]

Do you have to see Clash to enjoy Wrath? Cos I heard the former wasn't very good.

Nope, not at all t:

 

[Hunter Rider]

I love the design of the aliens.

 

[Kirmit]

I just noticed the aliens in the background with the masks on give off a sort of Predator look.

 

[Captain Marvel]

So... they're going to ask movie goers (the same people what they want to buy tons of toys, costumes, etc) to pick a side? Cause that's the only way a Civil War movie works, if one side is skewed as bad goes (Tony's team) and one as good (Cap's) in the war of ideals. You can't have a 2 hr movie based around a miscommunication. One side will be bad, the other good. That is the way of superhero movies.

Again, Disney/Marvel will never make characters they have built up as heroes turn into villains. It will destroy those cinematic characters for years.

Precisely. Just look at the comics. Exactly how many years was Iron Man right in the pits? They absolutely ruined his character with Civil War, and even now they're STILL laying the guilt and the crap over all that stuff that happened during it and since on his head. And people want to do that to the most beloved character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe?

I don't even understand why it's a pipe dream. It's not like that comic arc was unnanimously well received. There are SO many other comic stories that lend themselves to film with minor tweaking. And, for me at least, I'd like to see some original storylines in future films just like how they've been going.

I don't mind some adaptations of already written stories, but they should be of GOOD stories. Civil War is anything but. It was the absolute worst piece of crap I'd ever had the misfortune of reading in my entire life until Grant Morrison's Final Crisis came along soon after and dethroned it. It was such a ridiculous story, and if anyone thinks that it succeeded at all at making both sides good, then see the above comment about Iron Man. Iron Man and his people were absolutely villainous in comparison to Cap and his people. It was even worse in the tie-in comics. In some of them Tony was portrayed worse than Doctor Doom!

Nevermind how badly out of character half the major protagonists in the story were written. Cap and Tony in particular. And to top it all off, Cap is apparently a moron, because he never once stopped to consider the consequences of his winning. You can't fight a law, dumbass! It doesn't matter how badly you beat Tony's face in, the SHRA is still going to be in effect. And if the US government can't count on Iron Man and his people to bring you to heel, then they're going to send in SHIELD. And if SHIELD fails, then they're going to send in the military. And if the military fails, then they're going to send in the SENTINELS!!! And if the Sentinels fail, then God knows what else they'd pull out, because they're going to keep fighting because you're waging a war against the United States of America, and the only way for this particular battle to end is for you to overthrow the government.

And once you do that, guess what, Cap? You just shredded the Constitution. You know, that thing that you were supposedly fighting for? You just replaced a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people, which passed a bad law which negatively affects less than 0.001% of the population, with a dictatorship with you at its head which denies 99.999% of the population the right to control their own destiny.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Civil War is bad. Mark Millar wanted to write a story about the superheroes all fighting each other, but he obviously gave the repercussions zero thought, and because he couldn't be bothered to think about the ramifications of his own story, all the heroes on Cap's side come off like blithering idiots who think that if they punch hard enough they can Superboy-Prime punch that law off the books when that's not how things work. Every single victory which Cap and his people won against SHRA forces would've made the entire nation more certain than ever that the SHRA was the right thing to do, or that it didn't go far enough, and that they had to push back even harder if they didn't want a tiny superpowered minority to be running their lives. The SHRA wasn't something they could beat with violence. NOT without destroying the Constitution that Cap was so desperate to protect.

And that Cap immediately resorted to violence just astounds me, because for somebody who's so dedicated to the Constitution, you'd think he'd take advantage of the legal processes in place within the Constitution in order to see what he felt was justice done. He could've retained a lawyer (Matt Murdock) to sue the government. He could've taken his case to the Supreme Court. He and the other superheroes who refused to play ball could've retired and peacefully protested the act. He could've formed an advocacy group. He could've started a PAC to run ads to change public opinion and support political candidates opposed to the SHRA. He could've done any number of things to oppose the SHRA and stand up for his principles. And you know what? Every one of those things would've been the wholly American thing to do. They certainly beat trying to shred the Constitution in order to protect it.

 

[sabetoonth]

I just noticed the aliens in the background with the masks on give off a sort of Predator look.

I think we have a winner!

 

[BigThor]

I love the design of the aliens.

Me too, they look like they're ready to mess some stuff up. t:

 

[The Morningstar]

If it wasn't for their helmets looking suspiciously similar to the Mad Titan's, I'd totally be on board with the Phalanx idea.

So i'm saying they are either the Deviant Army of Thanos, or it's the Phalanx.

 

[The Morningstar]

Captain Marvel, what didn't you like about Final Crisis?

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Marvel Civil War film? Marvel Studios wouldn't even dare to dream of it.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Captain Marvel, what didn't you like about Final Crisis?

I'd tell you, but doing so would require my expending brain power in recalling it, and I'm just not willing to do that, sorry.

 

[The Morningstar]

A Civil War film would be crap, even if it was substantially re-written. The concept of a SHRA is good, it makes sense, it's the next logical step for the government.

But actual heroes fighting heroes? Harder than they fight the villains? No. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

What could be interesting is if the Avengers and SHIELD clash in how they operate. Privately funded by Stark or officially folded into SHIELD.

 

[Captain Marvel]

A Civil War film would be crap, even if it was substantially re-written. The concept of a SHRA is good, it makes sense, it's the next logical step for the government.

But actual heroes fighting heroes? Harder than they fight the villains? No. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

The only way it could conceivably work is if Stark was turned into a full on bad guy.

Yeah, Goliath fights countless villains and makes it out alright. But then he fights Tony Stark and he *DIES*?!? The Hell?!?

 

[The Morningstar]

Well, it was Clor who killed him. What great story telling. You have Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Hank Pym... heroes... create a clone of one of their best friends to use as a weapon of mass destruction in a fight against not Dr Doom, not Kang, not Thanos... but Captain America and friends.

Seriously? Is the guy ****ing insane? Better question, are the people who gobbled that ****e up ****ing insane?

The thing is, i've always supported the concept of the story. I think a lot of what Stark said was right. The jist of it is, just because you have super powers doesn't mean you shouldn't be responsible, doesn't mean you don't need training. But it was so poorly executed it just completely cheapened the whole theme and message it was trying to get across.

What made it worse was, Marvel came out and said their intention was for us to support the Pro-Reg side. Is there any clearer indication that Marvel didn't have a ****ing clue about what they were doing?

In summary, if you want a big Marvel event in a movie, pick a good one. Like Infinity Gauntlet, Kang Dynasty, Ultron Unlimited. My dream is to see Annihilation, but that won't happen without the F4 rights.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Don't forget making all their other friends believe that Thor had come back to life... AND had picked a side. So yeah, they played with everyone's emotions to make a cheap propaganda point. But remember, both sides are being portrayed as equally good and right.

The thing is, i've always supported the concept of the story. I think a lot of what Stark said was right. The jist of it is, just because you have super powers doesn't mean you shouldn't be responsible, doesn't mean you don't need training. But it was so poorly executed it just completely cheapened the whole theme and message it was trying to get across.

Not to mention that there was never any consistent vision of what the SHRA even was. To this day you can ask 10 different Marvel writers working on Civil War and its tie-ins at the time what exactly the SHRA entailed and they'd probably give you 11 different answers.

What made it worse was, Marvel came out and said their intention was for us to support the Pro-Reg side. Is there any clearer indication that Marvel didn't have a ****ing clue about what they were doing?

Nope, that's about a clear a sign as any that Marvel was full of brainless hacks.

In summary, if you want a big Marvel event in a movie, pick a good one. Like Infinity Gauntlet, Kang Dynasty, Ultron Unlimited. My dream is to see Annihilation, but that won't happen without the F4 rights.

Agreed. There are PLENTY of choices without having to start scooping the steaming pile of dog excrement which is Civil War.

 

[Nightwing 52]

Renner and Whedon talk Hawkeye:

Jeremy Renner has revealed new details about the role Hawkeye plays at the beginning of The Avengers. Despite the fact that he's had the least screen time in comparison to the rest of the team (a brief cameo in THOR) his part in the superhero ensemble is no less important. "Barton has been monitoring Dr. Selvig to make sure he isn’t doing anything to the Tesseract. He is an intense guy and takes his duties very seriously, but things start to go horribly wrong with the Tesseract and suddenly Barton is face to face with Loki, which is not a great place to be. Kevin Feige showed me images of Hawkeye from ‘The Ultimates’ and they were very cool, but what I liked more then anything was the idea that he’s a human being with a high skill set who is a bit of a rogue agent. I’ve played a few snipers before and there’s a really interesting mentality that comes along with being a sharp shooter, so I thought it was a pretty fun character to play."

"We wanted Hawkeye on the team because he was a fan favorite and adds a little bit of an X-factor," says director Joss Whedon. "To have a character who’s not necessarily a mainstream hero that everybody knows about is very cool. The thing about archery is at first you go, ‘All he uses is a bow and arrow?’ People love archery because it’s very primal and deadly, but at the same time it can be very elegant and lovely to watch." The director continues, "Shooting a bow and arrow is a very specific movement and it informed the way Jeremy Renner moved as well. Jeremy is very athletic and can work like a stuntman, but at the same time he is extremely balletic and precise in his movements, which was perfect for Hawkeye. I loved the idea of shooting one way while looking another way because he’s gauging the wind and the trajectory of his target. Action-wise Hawkeye is as fascinating a character as there is in the film."

However, there was one aspect of Hawkeye that Whedon was more than happy to leave in the comic books. In order to ground the character in reality, he knew that the bright purple costume just wouldn't cut it. Let’s just say it, the purple mask Hawkeye wears in the comics is just not a good idea," he laughs. "As much as possible with The Avengers, you want to see their faces and Jeremy Renner’s face is incredibly compelling, so I said, ‘Here’s an idea…don’t put cloth over it.’ We ended up going with Bryan Hitch’s vision of the costume from ‘Ultimates’ and Mark Miller’s vision of the idea that he’s not a super hero; he is a S.H.I.E.L.D agent. Hawkeye also likes to sneak off by himself to the highest and darkest part of the room and he’s not much of a team player."

Costume designer Alexandra Byrne was then faced with the challenge of bringing the 'Ultimate' costume to life on the big screen for Jeremy Renner to wear. "Hawkeye’s weapons and fighting style were big influences in the costume design of the character. Jeremy is extremely agile and I wanted to achieve a clean silhouette. Jeremy’s stance for drawing the bowstring threw his neck tall and straight, but in a crouch position his neck came forward, so we developed a center back detail in the stand collar made with woven elastics. This meant the collar could stretch back with Jeremy as he drew the bow and would not be left poking out as he bent forward."

"We wanted to make sure that S.H.I.E.L.D was a grounded place because in the Marvel Universe it’s a real organization with agents, missions and operatives," adds executive producer Jeremy Latcham. "Hawkeye seemed like a logical extension of that, as he is a guy who is a master assassin who is very proficient at what he does, but he also is a bit of a wild card as well. I feel like we won the lottery when we were able to cast Jeremy Renner in the role. The guy is an incredibly talented actor, who was nominated for an Oscar® two years in a row, and we were lucky that he happened to be in a moment where he wanted to go do something big and fun. He really brings it every single day and he’s constantly upping the ante in every scene." Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige says, "Hawkeye is introduced and is the largest new character in this film. Hawkeye has one of the coolest and most iconic of all of the weapons in the Marvel Universe and we were all very happy to be able to finally bring it to life in ‘The Avengers.’"

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Ah, come on - you guys are just mad that it worked. Lmaol. It was brilliant from this perspective though. And losing street cred where this rumor is in regards? Eh, spent hours keeping it going already. Now it's time to kick my feet up, recline, and have a laugh.

Besides it is what Loki is most known for after all... if there was any movie it would be called for, it is one with Loki.

Didn't fool me, I was suspicious of you from the beginning.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Renner and Whedon talk Hawkeye:

 

[Captain Marvel]

Didn't fool me, I was suspicious of you from the beginning.

Same here. Knew the whole idea of Cap and Iron Man duking it out towards the end of the movie was a load of horse crap. It wouldn't have made an ounce of sense no matter which way you looked at it.

 

[Smashlilman]

Precisely. Just look at the comics. Exactly how many years was Iron Man right in the pits? They absolutely ruined his character with Civil War, and even now they're STILL laying the guilt and the crap over all that stuff that happened during it and since on his head. And people want to do that to the most beloved character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe?



I don't mind some adaptations of already written stories, but they should be of GOOD stories. Civil War is anything but. It was the absolute worst piece of crap I'd ever had the misfortune of reading in my entire life until Grant Morrison's Final Crisis came along soon after and dethroned it. It was such a ridiculous story, and if anyone thinks that it succeeded at all at making both sides good, then see the above comment about Iron Man. Iron Man and his people were absolutely villainous in comparison to Cap and his people. It was even worse in the tie-in comics. In some of them Tony was portrayed worse than Doctor Doom!

Nevermind how badly out of character half the major protagonists in the story were written. Cap and Tony in particular. And to top it all off, Cap is apparently a moron, because he never once stopped to consider the consequences of his winning. You can't fight a law, dumbass! It doesn't matter how badly you beat Tony's face in, the SHRA is still going to be in effect. And if the US government can't count on Iron Man and his people to bring you to heel, then they're going to send in SHIELD. And if SHIELD fails, then they're going to send in the military. And if the military fails, then they're going to send in the SENTINELS!!! And if the Sentinels fail, then God knows what else they'd pull out, because they're going to keep fighting because you're waging a war against the United States of America, and the only way for this particular battle to end is for you to overthrow the government.

And once you do that, guess what, Cap? You just shredded the Constitution. You know, that thing that you were supposedly fighting for? You just replaced a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people, which passed a bad law which negatively affects less than 0.001% of the population, with a dictatorship with you at its head which denies 99.999% of the population the right to control their own destiny.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Civil War is bad. Mark Millar wanted to write a story about the superheroes all fighting each other, but he obviously gave the repercussions zero thought, and because he couldn't be bothered to think about the ramifications of his own story, all the heroes on Cap's side come off like blithering idiots who think that if they punch hard enough they can Superboy-Prime punch that law off the books when that's not how things work. Every single victory which Cap and his people won against SHRA forces would've made the entire nation more certain than ever that the SHRA was the right thing to do, or that it didn't go far enough, and that they had to push back even harder if they didn't want a tiny superpowered minority to be running their lives. The SHRA wasn't something they could beat with violence. NOT without destroying the Constitution that Cap was so desperate to protect.

And that Cap immediately resorted to violence just astounds me, because for somebody who's so dedicated to the Constitution, you'd think he'd take advantage of the legal processes in place within the Constitution in order to see what he felt was justice done. He could've retained a lawyer (Matt Murdock) to sue the government. He could've taken his case to the Supreme Court. He and the other superheroes who refused to play ball could've retired and peacefully protested the act. He could've formed an advocacy group. He could've started a PAC to run ads to change public opinion and support political candidates opposed to the SHRA. He could've done any number of things to oppose the SHRA and stand up for his principles. And you know what? Every one of those things would've been the wholly American thing to do. They certainly beat trying to shred the Constitution in order to protect it.

lol in Kingdom Come they decided to nuke all metahumans during the war. The US was partially successful. They killed a lot of metahumans but because Captain marvel/Shazam forced the nuke to detonate before hand it only killed a smaller portion of metahumans.

 

[samsnee]

Ok just managed to pick up that novelization that was floating around a while back.. unfortunately it ends at the same point as earlier.

It's set to hit shelves April 3rd, I found a copy at K-mart.

It's this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Avengers-Assemble/dp/1423153979

90% of it is a summation of the films leading up to the Avengers.

Spoiler

Pg 160 - Thor grabs Loki and leaves. Tony and Cap look at each other as Tony flies off after them. Widow tells Cap maybe he should sit this one out. He salutes and jumps out of the plane. Loki "With Bifrost destroyed, Odin must have used all of his power to get you here"

I really hope we get a better explanation than this on how Thor was able to come back.

 

[The Morningstar]

I think that's a good enough explanation. Really, Thor should be able to just travel through dimensions himself anyway. Odin having the power to do it instead is an ok compromise.

 

[Captain Marvel]

lol in Kingdom Come they decided to nuke all metahumans during the war. The US was partially successful. They killed a lot of metahumans but because Captain marvel/Shazam forced the nuke to detonate before hand it only killed a smaller portion of metahumans.

<----------- Ahem.
*points to username*

But yeah, they almost got them all if not for Captain Marvel. And yes, if anyone wants to compare Civil War to Kingdom Come of all things, then Kingdom Come wins hands out. But then again, dog excrement scraped off the bottom of my shoe wins out when compared to Civil War.

 

[darthmagic]

I really hope we get a better explanation than this on how Thor was able to come back.

I agree. Sounds absolutely horrendous. It has to be that he uses the infinity space Gem to bring Thor to Earth which alerts Thanos to the location of the gauntlet.