The Avengers vs X-Men: Days of Future Past

[Rock Sexton]

Just about every scene determines if the future is doomed.

Even the slow scenes with no action are critical to Wolverine's mission to save the future.

That goes without saying, but really ..... intensity behind every one of them? When Quicksilver was playing ping pong with himself you were hanging onto the edge of your seat?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

That goes without saying, but really ..... intensity behind every one of them? When Quicksilver was playing ping pong with himself you were hanging onto the edge of your seat?

They needed QS to get to Magneto who was needed to convince Mystique to not kill Trask.

If any of the plan went south or took too long it could mean the end for humanity...

So yes, I was at the edge of my seat.

 

[DA_Champion]

I don't pretend to love the Avengers, it's not my preferred style, but I have great respect for what it did.

Avengers gave character arcs and roles to Stark, Widow, Hulk, Thor, and Cap; it brought them together which is its plot achievement, and it shifted public attitude within the world in a convincing manner to being more favourable to the heroes. Those are natural plot and character developments.

X-Men DoFP starts with a plot that skips a lot of steps not just from First Class but from X3: The Last Stand / The Wolverine as well. Whether or not that's a problem is up to you, but I personally argue that the movie is less good than it could have been due to skipping steps. They also skip steps within the movie. Mystique's character arc is to stop being an assassin and to go back to being good. Why does she do so? Because Xavier nags her throughout the movie and at the climax scene, once the plot demands it, is where she finally caves in and becomes good again. That's problematic writing.

***********

Though, FWIW, I think that First Class is better than both

 

[DA_Champion]

They needed QS to get to Magneto who was needed to convince Mystique to not kill Trask.

If any of the plan went south or took too long it could mean the end for humanity...

So yes, I was at the edge of my seat.

Yes but there are problems there.

1) Why do they need young Magneto? Because old Magneto says he's essential to the mission. It then turns out that young Magneto does nothing but undermine the mission. Based on what we saw in the movie, they would have been better off leaving old Magneto in prison.

Magneto did not convince Mystique to not kill Trask. It was Xavier's nagging that did.

2) Given how powerful Quicksilver is, why do they let him go after the prison break? It's because his action set piece over, but based on the importance of the plot they should have kept working with him. It was an unnatural break.

 

[Mad Ones]

On Mystique: Because then she would be a mutant killing a human on live television. Mystique's situation was complicated because Trask did monstrous things and Xavier was in such a funk that he wasn't going to do anything about it. She wanted to punish him, but in the climax she took the opportunity to reflect a better side of mutants. A scenario she wasn't presented with in the original timelines. It was never Xavier's nagging, it was more the circumstances.

On Magneto: At the end of First Class Mystique was done listening to Xavier, and apparently she had a romance with Magneto. Hearing from Magneto that she shouldn't kill Trask would have a heck of a lot more weight than hearing it from Xavier. The fact that their younger selves were so unpredictable had great storytelling effect and really raised the drama and tension.

On Quicksilver: I guess he was too much of a loose cannon to keep. Magneto called him crazy.

 

[DA_Champion]

On Mystique: Because then she would be a mutant killing a human on live television. Mystique's situation was complicated because Trask did monstrous things and Xavier was in such a funk that he wasn't going to do anything about it. She wanted to punish him, but in the climax she took the opportunity to reflect a better side of mutants. A scenario she wasn't presented with in the original timelines. It was never Xavier's nagging, it was more the circumstances.

The movie is communicating that Mystique is a changed person at the end, not that she is failing to kill Trask because it isn't the perfect moment. If the latter were the case she would simply kill Trask at the next opportunity. Thus, her character arc is to go back to being the good Raven due to the piercing success of Xavier's nagging.

 

[Mad Ones]

We don't know what she's changed into. Her disguising herself as Styker can go a lot of ways. I assume she's still just as mad and proactive as she was before, and not Xavier's Raven. However, I think now that Xavier is out of his funk and not turning his back on mutants, Mystique can moderate her anger. Trask Industries is finished and I'm assuming he's facing the legal system for his crimes against mutants. I don't see why Mystique would still want to assassinate him, seeing how everything played out.

Unlike the original timeline where she killed, got captured, and experimented on for years.

 

[DA_Champion]

We don't know what she's changed into. Her disguising herself as Styker can go a lot of ways. I assume she's still just as mad and proactive as she was before, and not Xavier's Raven. However, I think now that Xavier is out of his funk and not turning his back on mutants, Mystique can moderate her anger. Trask Industries is finished and I'm assuming he's facing the legal system for his crimes against mutants. I don't see why Mystique would still want to assassinate him, seeing how everything played out.

Unlike the original timeline where she killed, got captured, and experimented on for years.

Well if you're right, Mystique had no character arc at all, she may have changed or she didn't, nobody knows. That's not a more favourable analysis of the movie.

 

[Mad Ones]

But her arc was not killing Trask, and we saw how that happened. I already said that with Xavier's help she's able to moderate her anger without becoming the same person she was at the beginning of First Class. She's torn between two ideologies, and we see steps in one direction in this film, and hints of her making a third option.

 

[DA_Champion]

Who is Mystique at the end of the movie, how did she change, and what made her change?

 

[Mad Ones]

She's not a killer and is passionate about mutant rights, she changed from wanting to kill to not actually killing, and she changed because she saw an opportunity to show a mutant being heroic, despite her anger.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

There is nothing to suggest that Bane is not a true believer in his cause or the principle person responsible for carrying out the League of Shadows' plans. He just ultimately isn't the one in charge. And he's certainly no love sick puppy. The very first thing he does in the one scene that he's in after the big reveal is to outright defy Talia's orders. Just because he loves Talia doesn't mean he's whipped.

I never got the whole love sick puppy thing, aside from from scene where he was reflecting on his past he was never love sick or whipped

This.

Not to knock Avengers because I loved it but DOFP was better to me on many levels.

Intense every single scene? Talk about exaggeration. LOL

That's true, but there's exaggerations made about both movies

Avengers gave character arcs and roles to Stark, Widow, Hulk, Thor, and Cap; it brought them together which is its plot achievement, and it shifted public attitude within the world in a convincing manner to being more favourable to the heroes. Those are natural plot and character developments.

I only really remember arcs for Tony and Banner and Widow.

Thor had his same brother issues for a scene or two, not much else, Cap became distrustful of Shield but there wasn't much delving into that, Widow had the most after Tony and Banner what with her Hawkeye friendship

Mystique's character arc is to stop being an assassin and to go back to being good. Why does she do so? Because Xavier nags her throughout the movie and at the climax scene, once the plot demands it, is where she finally caves in and becomes good again. That's problematic writing.

I didn't see her as going back to being good.

She was more or less on track to villainy throughout the movie but not 100% there yet. Xavier wasn't doing enough for Mutants in trouble, Magneto would do too much evil to Humans, Mystique straddled the line between the two as she was freeing Mutants in trouble but not yet killing Humans.
It was stated that Trask would historically be her first kill and the beginning of the end for her in her descent into villainy. Xavier managed to get through to her before that so she's currently in doubt and undecided where to go, she could still end up a villain or she could end up an X-Man, it's ambiguous imo
.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

She's not a killer and is passionate about mutant rights, she changed from wanting to kill to not actually killing, and she changed because she saw an opportunity to show a mutant being heroic, despite her anger.

Yeah, Mystique is far more conficted by the end of the movie. And once she sees how monstrous Magneto can be her better side realizes his brand of terrorism was counter-productive. So Magneto was needed but in ways unforeseen.

I agree Mystiques character arc wasn't fully fleshed out but they chose to focus on how central Xavier's idealism was for saving the future. They end up sacrificing Mystique's fully developed character arc for increased tension at the climax and the trade off was worth it to me.

The audience wasn't spoon fed that Mystique was capable of sparing Trask and they are never sure if she will pull the trigger until the very end.

Overall, the wild tension and the powerful message of the film are left intact which is a win in my book. Most action movies don't contain either.

 

[Rock Sexton]

They needed QS to get to Magneto who was needed to convince Mystique to not kill Trask.

If any of the plan went south or took too long it could mean the end for humanity...

So yes, I was at the edge of my seat.

I bet you were, especially for the sake of this conversation.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I don't pretend to love the Avengers, it's not my preferred style, but I have great respect for what it did.

Avengers gave character arcs and roles to Stark, Widow, Hulk, Thor, and Cap; it brought them together which is its plot achievement, and it shifted public attitude within the world in a convincing manner to being more favourable to the heroes. Those are natural plot and character developments.

X-Men DoFP starts with a plot that skips a lot of steps not just from First Class but from X3: The Last Stand / The Wolverine as well. Whether or not that's a problem is up to you, but I personally argue that the movie is less good than it could have been due to skipping steps. They also skip steps within the movie. Mystique's character arc is to stop being an assassin and to go back to being good. Why does she do so? Because Xavier nags her throughout the movie and at the climax scene, once the plot demands it, is where she finally caves in and becomes good again. That's problematic writing.

***********

Though, FWIW, I think that First Class is better than both

That "nagging" is why I started to lose my interest in the third act of the film.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I bet you were, especially for the sake of this conversation.

There's no reason to make personal jabs at people just because they don't agree with you.

You seem to be taking this a bit personally. A lot of people think DOFP is better than The Avengers. There's nothing wrong with that. So be polite and don't make snide remarks like that. It just shows you can't handle a different opinion to your own.

 

[BoredGuy]

There's no reason to make personal jabs at people just because they don't agree with you.

You seem to be taking this a bit personally. A lot of people think DOFP is better than The Avengers. There's nothing wrong with that. So be polite and don't make snide remarks like that. It just shows you can't handle a different opinion to your own.

Yes there is!!!
rabble rabble rabble!

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I bet you were, especially for the sake of this conversation.

I'm being honest.

As far as I knew, Quicksilver's refusal to help could've ruined Wolverine's mission.

Remember, throughout the movie they flash forward showing that time is running out and the sentinels were close to wiping out mutants.

 

[DA_Champion]

That "nagging" is why I started to lose my interest in the third act of the film.

I'm glad someone else noticed.

What do you think would have been a more convincing and emotionally powerful way for Mystique to experience her change of heart?

In fairness, they did one additional element to the nagging. As a counter to Xavier saying "please come back to me... please !!!", Magneto tried to kill her. In theory that should be a good mood, because it amplifies the motivation that Mystique should have to change sides. The problem, for me, is that it felt phoney. I didn't believe that Magneto would want to kill Mystique, that's not the Mutant Patriot we got to know in First Class, where it was implied they could fall in love. So him mercilessly firing on her like a dumb goon didn't feel genuine.

 

[DA_Champion]

Remember, throughout the movie they flash forward showing that time is running out and the sentinels were close to wiping out mutants.

The passage of time wasn't really being felt however. It's obvious from the start that Wolverine will complete his mission moments before the future Sentinels would have killed him, just like earlier in the movie Bishop completes his mission moments before the sentinel kill off Kitty. It's convenient trick to try and maximise narrative tension, but doesn't work as well as it could since it isn't earned.

There's also a parallel plot where Wolverine accidentally stabs Kitty, but that goes nowhere. I've read speculation that originally Kitty would have died and been replaced by Rogue.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm glad someone else noticed.

What do you think would have been a more convincing and emotionally powerful way for Mystique to experience her change of heart?

In fairness, they did one additional element to the nagging. As a counter to Xavier saying "please come back to me... please !!!", Magneto tried to kill her. In theory that should be a good mood, because it amplifies the motivation that Mystique should have to change sides. The problem, for me, is that it felt phoney. I didn't believe that Magneto would want to kill Mystique, that's not the Mutant Patriot we got to know in First Class, where it was implied they could fall in love. So him mercilessly firing on her like a dumb goon didn't feel genuine.

Liberators can be hypocrites just like everyone else.

Not to mention Mystique does cause the eradication of mutants.

If someone told early Malcolm X, in a believable way, that killing his own sister would prevent the black race from being eradicated he would, at the very least, consider it.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The passage of time wasn't really being felt however. It's obvious from the start that Wolverine will complete his mission moments before the future Sentinels would have killed him, just like earlier in the movie Bishop completes his mission moments before the sentinel kill off Kitty. It's convenient trick to try and maximise narrative tension, but doesn't work as well as it could since it isn't earned.

There's also a parallel plot where Wolverine accidentally stabs Kitty, but that goes nowhere. I've read speculation that originally Kitty would have died and been replaced by Rogue.

I think the tension is absolutely earned. The future scenes are so bleak you want very badly for Wolverine to succeed. Did I know in the back of mind that the good guys would win? Sure, but that's the same with any action movie.

I had no idea how the mission would succeed or if it would succeed enough to save everyone including Jean and Scott.

Kitty getting stabbed showed that Wolverine's physical conflicts had immediate and far reaching results. It made you fear for his safety regardless of any healing factor.

 

[Rock Sexton]

There's no reason to make personal jabs at people just because they don't agree with you.

You seem to be taking this a bit personally. A lot of people think DOFP is better than The Avengers. There's nothing wrong with that. So be polite and don't make snide remarks like that. It just shows you can't handle a different opinion to your own.

Trippin'.

It's pretty clear what separates most of the opinions is how much the viewer is vested in the particular franchise.

But to sit there and tell me every single scene in the movie has them on the edge of their seat is something you only see uber-fans say. I understood the implications of time travel, but really Quicksilver playing ping pong was intense? There was nothing intense about the dialogue or interaction and then as he actually performs his service, Singer uses a slo-mo camera trick to show off Quicksilver's sense of humor and make the audience laugh.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I'm glad someone else noticed.

What do you think would have been a more convincing and emotionally powerful way for Mystique to experience her change of heart?

That's a good question and honestly I'd have to sit and think about it. There was just something about the arrangement of her character in this film that felt forced to me.

The problem, for me, is that it felt phoney. I didn't believe that Magneto would want to kill Mystique, that's not the Mutant Patriot we got to know in First Class, where it was implied they could fall in love. So him mercilessly firing on her like a dumb goon didn't feel genuine.

Also another problem. There's a characterization disconnect between the two movies.

The passage of time wasn't really being felt however. It's obvious from the start that Wolverine will complete his mission moments before the future Sentinels would have killed him, just like earlier in the movie Bishop completes his mission moments before the sentinel kill off Kitty. It's convenient trick to try and maximise narrative tension, but doesn't work as well as it could since it isn't earned.

There's also a parallel plot where Wolverine accidentally stabs Kitty, but that goes nowhere. I've read speculation that originally Kitty would have died and been replaced by Rogue.

The passage of time thing is tricky because the movie spells out the solution right from the start, so it's up to the rest of the film to really make them "earn it". Unfortunately, the movie played more like a big retcon opportunity to me than that actually happening ..... where-as X:FC was fresh.

 

[StarkTheProdigy]

I enjoyed both for various reasons. Both were fantastic films