The Avengers vs X-Men: Days of Future Past

[JP]

That's diversity right there. She's not white, same with Drax. Unless you have a problem with green skin...

Well then, Days has 2 blue leads.

 

[Figs]

Well then, Days has 2 blue leads.

Exactly...j/k of course. I should have put that originally before someone possibly gets pissed or something.

 

[scatterax]

Story and acting wise I got to give the slight edge to DoFP. Everything else goes to the avengers. So I vote Avengers. It's just more enjoyable to me.

 

[scatterax]

Avengers, as far as I'm concerned, is the best popcorn thrill-ride type movie ever made.

Days of Future Past is a very good movie that made one HUGE error...they included a 5 minute scene in the future that all X-Men movies that follow must adhere to (since they will take place in the past, and therefore can't contradict what happens in the future). If they don't adhere to it, then they are back in continuity hell like before. That scene was an egregious error that not only hurts this film, but every X-Men film that will follow.

Therefore, Avengers wins by a mile when it should only barely squeak out a victory.

How unsatisfying would it have been if we weren't shown that though? It might seem more appealing to have a movie end where you aren't sure if the good guys ever win, but that would be even worse for all future movies because nothing the heroes do matters. Because they all die as far as we know. The GA and fans alike would have been pissed if they didn't conclude this story, or tried to pull a cliff hanger ending. I for one am glad we got the ending we got, and as an xmen fan, needed to see that the things that happened in x3 had been undone. What we did see was vague enough, however, that the rest of the movies have plenty of freedom to right there own history. We would be expecting cyclops, jean and storm to show up in part 3 regardless of how this movie ended. The fans had been demanding them since first class was announced. All the did was make it impossible for anyone to screw up the next film by omitting them completely.

There's nothing to complain about here. move along.

 

[JP]

What exactly is shown in that end scene that is someone a challenge to adhere to? How is it any different than having to adhere to an entire 3 film "trilogy"? They had 3 films to connect to, now they only have 3 minutes... Not a challenge. In fact, rather than confine them, as Heretic is suggesting, it opens them up completely.

 

[jmc]

Avengers, as far as I'm concerned, is the best popcorn thrill-ride type movie ever made.

Days of Future Past is a very good movie that made one HUGE error...they included a 5 minute scene in the future that all X-Men movies that follow must adhere to (since they will take place in the past, and therefore can't contradict what happens in the future). If they don't adhere to it, then they are back in continuity hell like before. That scene was an egregious error that not only hurts this film, but every X-Men film that will follow.

Therefore, Avengers wins by a mile when it should only barely squeak out a victory.

I don't see how that's an error at all. What happens in the future happens in the future. Between the new timeline of 1973 to 2023 there are going to be new events occurring. I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion, DoFP left the X-men series with multiple story options to pursue.

 

[Heretic]

I don't see how that's an error at all. What happens in the future happens in the future. Between the new timeline of 1973 to 2023 there are going to be new events occurring. I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion, DoFP left the X-men series with multiple story options to pursue.

We know the future. That's kind of my point. Whatever story options they choose, they MUST lead to that future...because that is the future they caused by changing the timeline. Anything that happens after that will be prelude to that future scene.

When Apocalypse comes, he WILL NOT kill Beast, or Cyclops, or Jean, or Rogue, or Colossus, or Xavier, or Wolverine etc. Furthermore, he won't do any damage that will prevent them from all being happy in the future.

Same for the film after that, and after that etc. They have shown us what happens after the next several movies, and all is well!

Of course, death is rare in superhero films...but I shouldn't be told before a movie starts that everything is going to be alreight for everybody in it.

 

[Heretic]

What exactly is shown in that end scene that is someone a challenge to adhere to? How is it any different than having to adhere to an entire 3 film "trilogy"? They had 3 films to connect to, now they only have 3 minutes... Not a challenge. In fact, rather than confine them, as Heretic is suggesting, it opens them up completely.

If Beast dies...or if Jean becomes Phoenix again and dies in a more true to the source Dark Phoenix saga...or other possibilities...then it will invalidate the future that we know must come...so they have to stick to the script.

 

[Heretic]

How unsatisfying would it have been if we weren't shown that though? It might seem more appealing to have a movie end where you aren't sure if the good guys ever win, but that would be even worse for all future movies because nothing the heroes do matters. Because they all die as far as we know. The GA and fans alike would have been pissed if they didn't conclude this story, or tried to pull a cliff hanger ending. I for one am glad we got the ending we got, and as an xmen fan, needed to see that the things that happened in x3 had been undone. What we did see was vague enough, however, that the rest of the movies have plenty of freedom to right there own history. We would be expecting cyclops, jean and storm to show up in part 3 regardless of how this movie ended. The fans had been demanding them since first class was announced. All the did was make it impossible for anyone to screw up the next film by omitting them completely.

There's nothing to complain about here. move along.

You NEVER know the future of ANY of the characters in ANY movie you watch...yet somehow it isn't a complaint...but not knowing what will happen to the X-Men 40 years later is somehow hurtful to your enjoyment? Heck, why stop there? Shouldn't we know what the world is like and who is still alive in EVERY movie? And why not 50 years in the future?

The entire point of the movie was to change the future so it would blink out of existence and a new future would happen as it was created. Just as I don't need to see the Marvel Universe in 2030 at the end of Avengers 2, I didnt need to see the X-Men Universe in 2030 in the end of X-Men.

 

[jmc]

We know the future. That's kind of my point. Whatever story options they choose, they MUST lead to that future...because that is the future they caused by changing the timeline. Anything that happens after that will be prelude to that future scene.

When Apocalypse comes, he WILL NOT kill Beast, or Cyclops, or Jean, or Rogue, or Colossus, or Xavier, or Wolverine etc. Furthermore, he won't do any damage that will prevent them from all being happy in the future.

Same for the film after that, and after that etc. They have shown us what happens after the next several movies, and all is well!

Of course, death is rare in superhero films...but I shouldn't be told before a movie starts that everything is going to be alreight for everybody in it.

But you don't know if they are alright or have been in the 30 years after Apocalypse. All we know about that future is that Jean Grey and Cyclops are alive, you can't really say there's much more to take away from it than that. A lot can happen in 30 years. The thing you're overlooking is that DoFP gives X-Men two options going forward, a story with the FC cast and a story with the Original cast, both of which can have overlapping story and character elements. Say someone like young Jean Grey is affected by the events that happens in Apocalypse, the effect of that event can be explored again 30 years later with older Jean Grey in another movie. This puts X-Men in a unique position whereby the same character can be explored over two different timelines. Plus, you don't know which other characters may make an appearance in movies set in the past and be killed off. You can't really look at 3 mins of footage and concluded everything is 100% ok.

 

[Heretic]

But you don't know if they are alright or have been in the 30 years after Apocalypse. All we know about that future is that Jean Grey and Cyclops are alive, you can't really say there's much more to take away from it than that. A lot can happen in 30 years. The thing you're overlooking is that DoFP gives X-Men two options going forward, a story with the FC cast and a story with the Original cast, both of which can have overlapping story and character elements. Say someone like young Jean Grey is affected by the events that happens in Apocalypse, the effect of that event can be explored again 30 years later with older Jean Grey in another movie. This puts X-Men in a unique position whereby the same character can be explored over two different timelines. Plus, you don't know which other characters may make an appearance in movies set in the past and be killed off. You can't really look at 3 mins of footage and concluded everything is 100% ok.

I know too much about the future. I should know nothing. I don't even want X-movies alternating between casts. I want the X-Men story to progress from point A to point B to point C etc. It's not a revolutionary concept, but it seems to work for 99% of the entertainment we see.

 

[jmc]

I know too much about the future. I should know nothing. I don't even want X-movies alternating between casts. I want the X-Men story to progress from point A to point B to point C etc. It's not a revolutionary concept, but it seems to work for 99% of the entertainment we see.

How many superhero films have there been where there was genuine risk that the hero wouldn't make it? Maybe one?

 

[JP]

I know too much about the future. I should know nothing. I don't even want X-movies alternating between casts. I want the X-Men story to progress from point A to point B to point C etc. It's not a revolutionary concept, but it seems to work for 99% of the entertainment we see.

You didn't like FC, then? Did you watch FC and think "Well, Xavier isn't going to die for another 50+ years so he'll be fine… and we know Magneto is alive and well and won't be "cured" for another 50+ years? Does that hinder your enjoyment?

Do you read comics? Does it bother you knowing that none of the characters are ever really going to die? Or any of the MCU films, where no character ever dies, and the few who do come back shortly after?

 

[Heretic]

How many superhero films have there been where there was genuine risk that the hero wouldn't make it? Maybe one?

When reading a comic or watching a movie, the point is to wrap the reader/viewer up in things so that they wonder "how the heck could they possibly get out of this?" To start a movie by informing us that the vast majority, if not the entire, cast will be okay, destroys the drama they should be trying to create.

 

[Heretic]

You didn't like FC, then? Did you watch FC and think "Well, Xavier isn't going to die for another 50+ years so he'll be fine… and we know Magneto is alive and well and won't be "cured" for another 50+ years? Does that hinder your enjoyment?

Do you read comics? Does it bother you knowing that none of the characters are ever really going to die? Or any of the MCU films, where no character ever dies, and the few who do come back shortly after?

I don't like prequels. I don't like knowing the result of what I haven't even watched yet.


As far as comics goes...you're right...death is meaningless in comics. If someone dies, they'll be back soon. The emotional punch to the gut that I felt when Phoenix first died rocked my childhood...and when she dies for the 10th time I'll feel nothing.

But again, the point of a comic is to put the hero in a position where we DO fear for them, or at least fear that they may be unable to save their friends. Yes, in the back of my mind I know that it is highly unlikely that the hero whose name is on the book will die...but a good comic book should tell me a story that makes me forget about that fact. It's probably not a good idea to tell me on page one that the good guys will all survive.

Oh...and for the record...I also cant stand it when a movie or tv show is told in the voice of the hero. I think Iron Man 3 was that way...and every episode of...was it Magnum PI or something? Anyway...if the hero lived to relate the story to me, then why am I watching him struggle to free himself before he drowns?

 

[scatterax]

You NEVER know the future of ANY of the characters in ANY movie you watch...yet somehow it isn't a complaint...but not knowing what will happen to the X-Men 40 years later is somehow hurtful to your enjoyment? Heck, why stop there? Shouldn't we know what the world is like and who is still alive in EVERY movie? And why not 50 years in the future?

The entire point of the movie was to change the future so it would blink out of existence and a new future would happen as it was created. Just as I don't need to see the Marvel Universe in 2030 at the end of Avengers 2, I didnt need to see the X-Men Universe in 2030 in the end of X-Men.

The difference being that this is a time travel story. The very beginning tells us in 50 years the characters are doomed. They send wolverine back in time to prevent this doom. If the ending doesn't show a resolution to this major plot point (that are characters are no longer doomed to die in 50 years) the story is incomplete. This is a time travel story. That's makes it ok to know the future. The only way we can avoid knowing the future with a time travel plot (and still have a complete story) is just to tell a completely different story that doesn't involve time travel.

 

[scatterax]

When reading a comic or watching a movie, the point is to wrap the reader/viewer up in things so that they wonder "how the heck could they possibly get out of this?" To start a movie by informing us that the vast majority, if not the entire, cast will be okay, destroys the drama they should be trying to create.

But for almost every super hero story you know the hero will win at the end. Yet good stories still make us ask ourselves how. That is still the case with x-men movies post DoFP. We know the good guys make it just like we always know, but we don't know what it takes for them to prevail against apocalypse. There are plenty of characters we didn't see that could still die between the past and the present we saw. For instance we know nothing about magnetos journey post DoFP. Does he join the xmen after his evil stint? Has he died? Is he in prison? We don't know. Same with mystique, and several other characters. There is plenty room for peril.

 

[scatterax]

I don't like prequels. I don't like knowing the result of what I haven't even watched yet.


As far as comics goes...you're right...death is meaningless in comics. If someone dies, they'll be back soon. The emotional punch to the gut that I felt when Phoenix first died rocked my childhood...and when she dies for the 10th time I'll feel nothing.

But again, the point of a comic is to put the hero in a position where we DO fear for them, or at least fear that they may be unable to save their friends. Yes, in the back of my mind I know that it is highly unlikely that the hero whose name is on the book will die...but a good comic book should tell me a story that makes me forget about that fact. It's probably not a good idea to tell me on page one that the good guys will all survive.

Oh...and for the record...I also cant stand it when a movie or tv show is told in the voice of the hero. I think Iron Man 3 was that way...and every episode of...was it Magnum PI or something? Anyway...if the hero lived to relate the story to me, then why am I watching him struggle to free himself before he drowns?

Sounds like your critiques are more like genre preferences, and less like actual shortcomings of this movie.

 

[MrsKent26]

DOFP for me, by a wide margin as well.

DOFP just seems more complex and adult-oriented than Avengers.

 

[jmc]

When reading a comic or watching a movie, the point is to wrap the reader/viewer up in things so that they wonder "how the heck could they possibly get out of this?" To start a movie by informing us that the vast majority, if not the entire, cast will be okay, destroys the drama they should be trying to create.

Do you honestly think the majority of superhero movies give off the vibe that the hero is in any genuine risk of dying? The vast majority of superhero film don't put the hero in any serious danger in the first place. The only one to do it in recent memory, maybe even the only one to even pose the question seriously was TDKR where we genuinely didn't know if Batman would be killed off. Again, you don't know what that 30 year gap may entail. Lets not make out that it's like Star Wars there was 7-8 hours of story already established, we got 3 mins of footage where nothing other than Cyclops and Jean Grey returned. It's no different to ending the film knowing the hero will return. I don't like prequels either, but DoFP is not a prequel series, it's been softly rebooted.

 

[LoganGambit87]

we all knew the x men would win and the future would be fixed it didn't change how great dofp was

it has and should always be the journey and not the end result

 

[The.Brotherhood]

Avengers. The thing is DOFP is really a fit for the reality that the Fox-verse put themselves upon on but there's so many continuity and consistency issues (yeah I know MCU is not perfect but not as messed up as fox-verse) in the X-series even in the First Class (still my fave of all x-men films), The Wolverine (teased the costume and get deleted WTF???) and even DOFP (still annoyed that Havok is older than Cyclops and a lot of stuff), it did FIX most of the messed up things in fox-verse BUT it didn't changed the game / landscape for a wide cinematic universe like THE AVENGERS did.


P.S.

I'm a Magneto Guy but they messed him up so much in the OT (I respect sir Ian McKellen but he's too grumpy for me to be Magneto, Leader of The Brotherhood / Ruler of Genosha / Savior of the Mutant Race (just my opinion) and the costume for DOFP wasn't the Magneto that we all wanted to see.

 

[The Endless]

The only problem i have with it now is... whenever anyone in the future timeline is in danger... why not just get Kitty to do her thing? It's kind of a cheat really. They are all practically immortal now.

We always know the hero will win and the bad guy will lose. This goes for all films. Not just superhero films. But a good film will engross us and make us feel for the characters anyway. I ask; why should i care for any of the original cast characters now? I also ask, why should i care for the likes of Colossus, Blink and whoever the others are? They are cardboard cut outs.

 

[Heretic]

The difference being that this is a time travel story. The very beginning tells us in 50 years the characters are doomed. They send wolverine back in time to prevent this doom. If the ending doesn't show a resolution to this major plot point (that are characters are no longer doomed to die in 50 years) the story is incomplete. This is a time travel story. That's makes it ok to know the future. The only way we can avoid knowing the future with a time travel plot (and still have a complete story) is just to tell a completely different story that doesn't involve time travel.

The resolution is that they stopped...or at least altered...the future horrors.

Then, it would create drama in future films...what if Apocalypse is WORSE? What if this new threat, that they made possible, is unstoppable? But no worries...they do stop him.

 

[Heretic]

But for almost every super hero story you know the hero will win at the end. Yet good stories still make us ask ourselves how. That is still the case with x-men movies post DoFP. We know the good guys make it just like we always know, but we don't know what it takes for them to prevail against apocalypse. There are plenty of characters we didn't see that could still die between the past and the present we saw. For instance we know nothing about magnetos journey post DoFP. Does he join the xmen after his evil stint? Has he died? Is he in prison? We don't know. Same with mystique, and several other characters. There is plenty room for peril.

You mean how we knew that Cyclops, Jean and Xavier would all survive X-3? You know...since the heroes never die, so telling us that they never will is perfectly fine.