The Avengers vs X-Men: Days of Future Past

[Raiden]

How? The Sentinels adapt to everything. That's the point. Nothing they do will work, and they know this. Their only hope is if Kitty succeeds.

And given that it serves as the whole basis of the story, it works. Unlike The Avengers which ends in a Dues Ex Machina where all the villains just drop dead without warning when Tony blows up the mothership because...the movie was out of time, I guess. We are never given an explanation for why this happens to what otherwise seems to be an organic force.

But isn't Kitty's power to shift an X-Men consciousness back in time and erase the future pretty much a Deus Ex Machina as well? In the end, none of the X-Men died because the past was changed and the Future Sentinels never became a reality.

 

[def28]

The weaker Sentinel argument...this isn't the comics where these giant "killer" robots have their targets in their hands and squeeze them, but not hard enough to injure them let alone kill them.

They don't only just grab people in the comics. The whole adapting thing is pretty much taking from there only modified to fit mutant powers. They had more accurately designed ones (but underused and poorly executed) at the end of this film and Wolverine had enough issues with just one of them. So the weaker ones still kicked their ass. Cut out Magneto being able to remote control them in a newer inbetween model and all the other stuff they have in the books and problem solved.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

But isn't Kitty's power to shift an X-Men consciousness back in time and erase the future pretty much a Deus Ex Machina as well? In the end, none of the X-Men died because the past was changed and the Future Sentinels never became a reality.

No, because it was set up as the main basis for the story within in the first 10 minutes of the movie.

Deus ex machina (pronounced [ˈdeus eks ˈmaː.kʰi.na], /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/;[1] from Latin, meaning "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.

In DoFP, it is a logical conclusion that the characters have worked for the last 2 hours to try and achieve.

 

[Rock Sexton]

But isn't Kitty's power to shift an X-Men consciousness back in time and erase the future pretty much a Deus Ex Machina as well? In the end, none of the X-Men died because the past was changed and the Future Sentinels never became a reality.

Ya seriously, it's just as much of a deus ex machina.

 

[Rock Sexton]

No, because it was set up as the main basis for the story within in the first 10 minutes of the movie.

In DoFP, it is a logical conclusion that the characters have worked for the last 2 hours to try and achieve.

Kitty's powers are unexpected ..... therefore a deus ex machina. There are no explanations for or development of those powers. They're established by almost a throwaway line.

Same with Charles being able to walk again. "Oh hey he's walking because I made a serum." Such things are very comic book-like, but in terms of cinematic storytelling they're light on build and very convenient. Kind of like Selvig's fail-safe in the Avengers.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Kitty's powers are unexpected ..... therefore a deus ex machina. There are no explanations for or development of those powers. They're established by almost a throwaway line.

In the first ten minutes, and the entire plot of the movie is based around her having those abilities. That is not a deus ex machina.

 

[Rock Sexton]

In the first ten minutes, and the entire plot of the movie is based around her having those abilities. That is not a deus ex machina.

Again, it's not explained how they're acquired nor was there any development of her gaining those powers. She didn't have them prior to this film. She literally explains what she's going to do in one sentence.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Again, it's not explained how they're acquired nor are was there any development of her gaining those powers. She didn't have them prior to this film. She literally explains what she's going to do in one sentence.

It doesn't matter. The entire film aside from the very first fight occurs after that point. It is explained first what they are going to do and then things happen exactly how they were explained. When it happens at the end of the film, it doesn't come out of nowhere.

In The Avengers, there are two things that happen both right at the end of the movie with no build-up whatsoever and appear to happen just because the writers were in a corner and needed to get out of it. Selvig's failsafe is the first, when we were given no indication at all that Loki's mind-control could be fought off. The second is the entire alien army dropping dead for no explained reason. The former was annoying, but the latter was just ridiculous. Classic deus ex machina.

 

[Rock Sexton]

It doesn't matter. The entire film aside from the very first fight occurs after that point. It is explained first what they are going to do and then things happen exactly how they were explained. When it happens at the end of the film, it doesn't come out of nowhere.

It doesn't matter to you because you're a huge X-Men fan. Them explaining what they're going to do and who they'll need to recruit is SEPARATE from Kitty having the sudden ability to send someone back in time aka "coming out of nowhere. This story is also told in non-linear fashion so you get your Deus Ex Machina at the beginning. At that point it's in the bag that the X-Men will triumph.

In The Avengers, there are two things that happen both right at the end of the movie with no build-up whatsoever and appear to happen just because the writers were in a corner and needed to get out of it. Selvig's failsafe is the first, when we were given no indication at all that Loki's mind-control could be fought off. The second is the entire alien army dropping dead for no explained reason. The former was annoying, but the latter was just ridiculous. Classic deus ex machina.

I'm not disagreeing with Selvig's failsafe throwaway line, nor the Chitauri being controlled from a base. Everything in our discussion for both movies is convenient as hell. Although I will say this, there are some things I don't need to be directly told to me. When Stark sends that missile up to the Chitauri base and the explosion causes them to deactivate, all I have to do is put the pieces together ...... because I don't eat boogers. It's just like when some people harped on Cap talking thru some kind of ear piece, but they didn't show when he acquired it. I mean do we really have to see that to know SHIELD might have a simple contraption like that? No.

I felt the exact same annoyance or ridiculousness with the sudden time travel abilities, Beast's miraculous serum to cure paralysis .... as well as Beasts "Oh hey I built this contraption to scan/record networks" and the other contraption to screw with the Pentagon's security cameras.

To each their own really. It's up to the rest of the movie to hold the entire thing up when you get goofy stuff like that.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

It doesn't matter to you because you're a huge X-Men fan. Them explaining what they're going to do and who they'll need to recruit is SEPARATE from Kitty having the sudden ability to send someone back in time aka "coming out of nowhere. This story is also told in non-linear fashion so you get your Deus Ex Machina at the beginning. At that point it's in the bag that the X-Men will triumph.

It doesn't matter because it isn't a contrived plot device to resolve a seemingly unsolvable problem at the last minute. It IS the plot. There is nothing sudden or unexpected about it. It is established right at the very beginning of the film what Kitty can do.

EDIT: Oh and BTW, my favorite superhero is Iron Man, not the X-Men. So it has nothing to do with that.

 

[hafizbat]

I couldn't care less about these tiny details. The whole is more than the sum of its parts. And both were excellent.

 

[Rock Sexton]

It doesn't matter because it isn't a contrived plot device to resolve a seemingly unsolvable problem at the last minute. It IS the plot. There is nothing sudden or unexpected about it. It is established right at the very beginning of the film what Kitty can do.

Kitty Pryde having the ability to send someone back in time is definitely UNEXPECTED .... and it does happen last minute, right before the X-Men were about to killed off completely by the invading Sentinels. You keep forgetting that the movie is told in a non-linear fashion.

I couldn't care less about these tiny details. The whole is more than the sum of its parts. And both were excellent.

See I kind've mentioned that. It's up to the rest of the movie to make you forget about those little things.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Kitty Pryde having the ability to send someone back in time is definitely UNEXPECTED .... and it does happen last minute, right before the X-Men were about to killed off completely by the invading Sentinels. You keep forgetting that the movie is told in a non-linear fashion.

No, it isn't. The Future sequences are entirely linear, aside from the flashbacks to the Past as they are explaining about Trask and how the Sentinels came into being. As are the Past sequences.

It is like The Godfather Part II with two distinct linear sections of the film. Not a non-linear story like Pulp Fiction. The only thing connecting the two timelines is Wolverine (and Xavier in one scene).

 

[Rock Sexton]

No, it isn't. The Future sequences are entirely linear, aside from the flashbacks to the Past as they are explaining about Trask and how the Sentinels came into being. As are the Past sequences.

It is like The Godfather Part II with two distinct linear sections of the film. Not a non-linear story like Pulp Fiction.

Traveling back in time is NOT linear.

Faced with complete eradication at the beginning of the movie, Kitty suddenly knows how to send people back in time to prevent it, even though nowhere in her X-Men cinematic history has she been able to do that. What else do you want to call that than Deus Ex Macchina?

I mean c'mon. You want to fixate on the Avengers stuff with that going on? Technically speaking with powers like that, why didn't she use them to prevent all that was going on in previous films?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Traveling back in time is NOT linear.

Faced with complete eradication at the beginning of the movie, Kitty suddenly knows how to send people back in time to prevent it, even though nowhere in her X-Men cinematic history has she been able to do that.

I mean c'mon. You want to fixate on the Avengers stuff with that going on? Technically speaking with powers like that, why didn't she use them to prevent all that was going on previous films?

The Future Timeline is linear. I'm not talking about DoFP as a whole. But the events in the Future Timeline occur in chronological order with Point A leading to Point B to Point C.

The only part of the film where we don't know her powers is the Prologue. So while I suppose you could make the technical argument that the first ten minutes were resolved by a deus ex machina, the main plot of the movie doesn't start until we know what is going on. When the Future is changed at the end of the film, it is not in any way unexpected because we were told what was happening at the beginning of the film. There is no comparison between the resolution of a single action scene at the very beginning of the film, and the outcome of the entire main plot of the film as it is in The Avengers.

What happens in other films is irrelevant. This film's plot is self-contained. If magically she all of a sudden had those powers in the Third Act of this film, then I would agree with you. But again, her powers are all established in the VERY FIRST sequence in the film.

Now if you want an explanation, this is years later and who says she couldn't have developed new powers. We know that mutants have all sorts of strange and unique abilities. But it all really doesn't matter with regards to this film. DoFP explains it right at the beginning. That's enough.

I don't know how else to explain it any simpler. Something is not unexpected if they tell you what is going to happen, spend the next two hours making it happen, and then it happens exactly how they told you it would.

 

[def28]

I think the answer to my question will be only the Sentinel ran time line is capable of giving Kitty a second mutation....

...but with these powers how will she not be a deus ex machina? Those are the most convenient problem solving powers that can be given to a character. They have to strip them from her.

 

[jaymes_e06]

DOFP for me.

Loved both though it's just I found myself forgetting Avengers but DOFP just lingered with me in a good way.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think the answer to my question will be only the Sentinel ran time line is capable of giving Kitty a second mutation....

...but with these powers how will she not be a deus ex machina? Those are the most convenient problem solving powers that can be given to a character. They have to strip them from her.

That's a different problem entirely. Yes, it could be an issue in the future. But that's an issue for later films, not a problem with DoFP specifically.

 

[def28]

Yeah, I don't see how they can leave her with it.

 

[scatterax]

I don't really care when she got her powers. The fact that it was set up in the first act of a three act story means it isn't a deus ex machina. It may be new from the other films, but not this film. You mine as well be saying all the xmen a powers are deus ex machina, because they just conveniently show up in adolescence without explanation. This is xmen. People get powers that don't make a whole lot of sense because they are mutants. She had a second mutation that she's still learning how to control. She starts the film with this second power. Within the rules of xmen, this is fine.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I think the answer to my question will be only the Sentinel ran time line is capable of giving Kitty a second mutation....

...but with these powers how will she not be a deus ex machina? Those are the most convenient problem solving powers that can be given to a character. They have to strip them from her.

I said the exact same thing and all he kept telling me was "Well they spent the first 10mins explaining .... "

It didn't take 10mins to show Kitty could send someone back in time. It was swift and convenient to the story - a classic DEM. The rest of the plan that Charles and Eric laid out to Wolvie is what took up the bulk of that time.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I don't really care when she got her powers. The fact that it was set up in the first act of a three act story means it isn't a deus ex machina. It may be new from the other films, but not this film. You mine as well be saying all the xmen a powers are deus ex machina, because they just conveniently show up in adolescence without explanation. This is xmen. People get powers that don't make a whole lot of sense because they are mutants. She had a second mutation that she's still learning how to control. She starts the film with this second power. Within the rules of xmen, this is fine.

Kitty's powers go against anything we've come to know of her in previous incarnations on screen. She simply has them in DOFP to make it convenient for Singer to send everyone back so he can retcon all movies after X2.

That being said ...... let me paint the picture again. The movie opens up with invincible Sentinels about to kill the last remaining X-Men. Out of Nowhere Kitty is able to send someone back in time to save the day. What do you call that? Yeah ......

 

[def28]

It didn't take 10mins to show Kitty could send someone back in time. It was swift and convenient to the story - a classic DEM. The rest of the plan that Charles and Eric laid out to Wolvie is what took up the bulk of that time.

That whole intro felt rushed to me. I remember it spelling everything out, but not really in detail to her power. While extremely convenient and probably for only this film, I guess that didn't bother me much. But giving a character that level of power full time can be a huge issue. I don't thik this series will even bring it up that she has the power if she shows up again. They just kinda drop things or pick and choose.

I also remember the level of exposition on what Logan needed to do at the intro being some of the worst I've seen, so I'm kinda glad they didn't keep going about her powers just cause it was already an uncomfortable scene. Felt rushed, like everyone was reading cue cards and just trying to hit their marks. After that I was actually really into the flick for awhile and then it fell off for me again somewhere in the middle.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

And don't get me wrong, the final New York fight in The Avengers was a lot of fun, like something straight out of the comics. But suspenseful it wasn't.

Agreed totally. I never felt The Avengers were in danger of losing that battle because they really never seemed to be in danger during it.

I disagree, i found the ones in other films you mentioned more suspenseful, even though i don't think MoS was very good, and i had grown a bit numb after all the destruction and action on screen. It's all about how you present your story, and even though Avengers had that quiet moment where Joss Whedon tries to show the team getting tired, i never felt any suspense whatsoever, i'm sure other people had a different reaction, but i myself think this was a weakness in the film, in least for me.

I actually find this a weakness in all of the MCU movies, the exceptions being certain moments in Thor and TWS, but even then, the suspense didnt exactly have you on the edge of your seat like many other CBM's do.

Right. I mean we are all pretty sure that the Death Star isn't going to blow up the Rebel Base. But because of the acting, how it is shot and edited, and just as importantly the score, it really sucks me into the story. I'm at the edge of my seat when Luke turns off his targeting computer while down to his last torpedo with Vader closing in on him. I didn't really get that with The Avengers.

Same here, I loved Avengers, but this aspect along with a few others has hurt it on repeat viewings, I dont think I will get that with DOFP because during the finale I was on the edge of my seat both times I watched it.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I remember that whole opening scene reading like a time travel 101 handbook, but not really in detail to her power. While extremely convenient and probably for only this film, I guess that didn't bother me much. But giving a character that level of power full time can be a huge issue. I don't thik this series will even bring it up that she has the power if she shows up again. They just kinda drop things or pick and choose.

I also remember the level of exposition on what Logan needed to do at the intro being some of the worst I've seen, so I'm kinda glad they didn't keep going about her powers just cause it was already an uncomfortable scene. Felt rushed, like everyone was reading cue cards and just trying to hit their marks. After that I was actually really into the flick for awhile and then it fell off for me again somewhere in the middle.

I had nearly the exact same experience man. My main issue is that nearly everything that happened in that movie happened too easily. Oh by the way I know a guy who runs really fast! Oh hey by the way I created this serum to cure paralysis! Oh hey by the way, I have this contraption that will completely render the pentagon security system useless! There is almost always a certain degree of that in CBM's, but there was more than you're standard amount in DOFP. This was because the movie served more as Singer's way of retconning previous films he didn't like.

By the time we got to the scene with Charles whining for Mystique to stand down I was pretty much bored. I don't quite have the vested interest in these characters like the guys who claim they were feeling the suspense every second of the movie, especially Mystique and unfortunately most of the move hovered around her character.

Fassbender is an amazing actor and the moment he raises his voice on the plane it was a real stand at attention moment. I can't really think of anything else that really resonated with me. It lacked any memorable action sequences (kind've like T:TDW), as what little was there was pretty bland. The constant speechifying going on got a bit overbearing after a while.