The Avengers vs X-Men: Days of Future Past

[Kahran Ramsus]

Many times? A random time skip happens after a Sentinel attack and then Kitty explains herself to the group and how she can send Logan back. Her new powers were not achieved, they were written.

And then they spend the rest of the movie talking about it.

You might not like how it was setup, but because it was setup it makes it not DEM by definition. DEM is a resolution that is NOT setup beforehand. Thinking the setup is poorly written is not enough, just that it is there at all.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I thought it was his staff that allowed him to do that.

It doesn't really matter. He couldn't do it in Thor, and then he magically can at the beginning of The Avengers. It isn't any different than what happens with Kitty in DoFP. He gets a new weapon. She gets a new mutation. Exact same thing.

 

[See Cap Run]

In The Avengers, there are two things that happen both right at the end of the movie with no build-up whatsoever and appear to happen just because the writers were in a corner and needed to get out of it. Selvig's failsafe is the first, when we were given no indication at all that Loki's mind-control could be fought off. The second is the entire alien army dropping dead for no explained reason. The former was annoying, but the latter was just ridiculous. Classic deus ex machina.[/QUOTE]

Regarding your first point: the possibility of Loki's mind-control being fought off to a very minute degree was established at the beginning of The Avengers, not by exposition but by character behavior, when Hawkeye shot Fury in the vest rather than taking the head shot. [it was discussed in deleted scenes but not in the movie itself]

As regards your second point, the hive-mind/queen-bee aspect of the Chitauri was set up subtly when Hulk took out the Leviathan and all the Chitauri yelled out in pain. While the keystone army trope is not favorite, I understand why Joss employed it as I can't think of another way off the top of my head to wrap up the story without The Avengers having to fight on for a loooong time.

Now as regards some posters feeling that there wasn't any doubt The Avengers would win, I'd argue that there were multiple points throughout the battle where it seemed like The Avengers were having a very rough go of it and for a while it even looked certain that the Chitauri would be victorious.

1. Right before Black Widow gets a boost from Captain America, she is fighting off a Chitauri soldier and she barely attains victory by the skin of her teeth and you can tell she knows they will loose if they don't figure out a way to shut off the Cube.

2. Secondly, there was a point where Cap was pinned to the ground by a Chitauri soldier and right after he defeats it, Barton informs him of the bank civilian situation and he says very wearily, "I'm on it!"

3. Right after Cap got blown through the bank window and onto the car, you could tell he had a definite "how the hell are we going to win this" moment.

4. when Hawkeye has to jump from his rooftop when he spots an entire swarm of Chitauri coming towards him and crash through the window.

5. when the Hulk was swarmed by all the Chitauri and they had him on the ropes

6. When Fury told Stark about the nuke, he had been pinned down to the ground by the Chitauri ever since he crashed through the Leviathan

7. and finally, probably the most hopeless moment was right after Cap got shot: Thor asked him if he was ready for another bout and Cap replied, "What, you gettin' sleepy?" but by the two Chris's performances in that scene that everything was pretty much going to hell in a handbasket.

Now, of course everyone know that The Avengers are going to win as the good guys most if not all action movies have to come out victorious, but the way it was executed make victory look nigh impossible.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

It doesn't really matter. He couldn't do it in Thor, and then he magically can at the beginning of The Avengers. It isn't any different than what happens with Kitty in DoFP. He gets a new weapon. She gets a new mutation. Exact same thing.

Not really. At least in my eyes anyway. The weapon that Loki used in avengers is part of a bigger story of the infinity gems. I think it is telling a complete continuous story. If Loki being in avengers and he had grew some dragon wings and could breath fire would of been more like Kitty magically changing her whole character, powers, and overall back story. However, I guess they had to do it to have the movie make sense, and wolverine not being able to drown after being in the water for what seemed like 3 days and magneto all of a sudden able to control the sentinels.

 

[See Cap Run]

It doesn't matter. The entire film aside from the very first fight occurs after that point. It is explained first what they are going to do and then things happen exactly how they were explained. When it happens at the end of the film, it doesn't come out of nowhere.

In The Avengers, there are two things that happen both right at the end of the movie with no build-up whatsoever and appear to happen just because the writers were in a corner and needed to get out of it. Selvig's failsafe is the first, when we were given no indication at all that Loki's mind-control could be fought off. The second is the entire alien army dropping dead for no explained reason. The former was annoying, but the latter was just ridiculous. Classic deus ex machina.

Regarding your first point: the possibility of Loki's mind-control being fought off to a very minute degree was established at the beginning of The Avengers, not by exposition but by character behavior, when Hawkeye shot Fury in the vest rather than taking the head shot. [it was discussed in deleted scenes but not in the movie itself]

As regards your second point, the hive-mind/queen-bee aspect of the Chitauri was set up subtly when Hulk took out the Leviathan and all the Chitauri yelled out in pain. While the keystone army trope is not favorite, I understand why Joss employed it as I can't think of another way off the top of my head to wrap up the story without The Avengers having to fight on for a loooong time.

Now as regards some posters feeling that there wasn't any doubt The Avengers would win, I'd argue that there were multiple points throughout the battle where it seemed like The Avengers were having a very rough go of it and for a while it even looked certain that the Chitauri would be victorious.

1. Right before Black Widow gets a boost from Captain America, she is fighting off a Chitauri soldier and she barely attains victory by the skin of her teeth and you can tell she knows they will loose if they don't figure out a way to shut off the Cube.

2. Secondly, there was a point where Cap was pinned to the ground by a Chitauri soldier and right after he defeats it, Barton informs him of the bank civilian situation and he says very wearily, "I'm on it!"

3. Right after Cap got blown through the bank window and onto the car, you could tell he had a definite "how the hell are we going to win this" moment.

4. when Hawkeye has to jump from his rooftop when he spots an entire swarm of Chitauri coming towards him and crash through the window.

5. when the Hulk was swarmed by all the Chitauri and they had him on the ropes

6. When Fury told Stark about the nuke, he had been pinned down to the ground by the Chitauri ever since he crashed through the Leviathan

7. and finally, probably the most hopeless moment was right after Cap got shot: Thor asked him if he was ready for another bout and Cap replied, "What, you gettin' sleepy?" but by the two Chris's performances in that scene that everything was pretty much going to hell in a handbasket.

Now, of course everyone know that The Avengers are going to win as the good guys most if not all action movies have to come out victorious, but the way it was executed make victory look nigh impossible.

I reposted to clearly mark Kahran Ramsus's post.

 

[Filmfreak]

As regards your second point, the hive-mind/queen-bee aspect of the Chitauri was set up subtly when Hulk took out the Leviathan and all the Chitauri yelled out in pain. While the keystone army trope is not favorite, I understand why Joss employed it as I can't think of another way off the top of my head to wrap up the story without The Avengers having to fight on for a loooong time.

Now as regards some posters feeling that there wasn't any doubt The Avengers would win, I'd argue that there were multiple points throughout the battle where it seemed like The Avengers were having a very rough go of it and for a while it even looked certain that the Chitauri would be victorious.

1. Right before Black Widow gets a boost from Captain America, she is fighting off a Chitauri soldier and she barely attains victory by the skin of her teeth and you can tell she knows they will loose if they don't figure out a way to shut off the Cube.

2. Secondly, there was a point where Cap was pinned to the ground by a Chitauri soldier and right after he defeats it, Barton informs him of the bank civilian situation and he says very wearily, "I'm on it!"

3. Right after Cap got blown through the bank window and onto the car, you could tell he had a definite "how the hell are we going to win this" moment.

4. when Hawkeye has to jump from his rooftop when he spots an entire swarm of Chitauri coming towards him and crash through the window.

5. when the Hulk was swarmed by all the Chitauri and they had him on the ropes

6. When Fury told Stark about the nuke, he had been pinned down to the ground by the Chitauri ever since he crashed through the Leviathan

7. and finally, probably the most hopeless moment was right after Cap got shot: Thor asked him if he was ready for another bout and Cap replied, "What, you gettin' sleepy?" but by the two Chris's performances in that scene that everything was pretty much going to hell in a handbasket.

Now, of course everyone know that The Avengers are going to win as the good guys most if not all action movies have to come out victorious, but the way it was executed make victory look nigh impossible.

With the exception of probably Chuck Norris, every hero in a movie takes a punch or two before he actually wins. It's one of the most common and popular cliches in action movies. The hero who seems helpless and beat down but somehow manages to gather what's left of his strength and defeats the seemingly undefeatable villain. Especially in the superhero genre that obviously happens every time.

So yes it all comes down to execution like most of you already have stated. A good action sequence is the one that creates the illusion that the main character is in real danger whereas everyone knows deep down that he's not going to lose, let alone die. But at that moment no one cares, if the movie somehow manages to built suspense and tricks you into falling for that.

I agree that there wasn't even the slightest moment in Avengers where I felt that illusion especially in the battle of New York. In DOFP I felt that at least once or twice, so even though I probably wasn't exactly at the edge of my seat like others I still bought the big threat. I never did in the Avengers. No more than I would have, seeing Adam West beating a bunch of goons in the original Batman series. Sure it wasn't so much the quality as it was the quantity of the threat and that's the problem right there. It could've easily been hundreds or thousands of anything and it wouldn't have made any difference. The Chitauri themselves were indeed puny enemies who were dropping like flies.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Kitty has those powers from the beginning of the film. You are acting like she showed no sign of them for 90% of the movie and then magically had them when she needed them at the end.

She's a mutant. Mutants have all sorts of strange, unique powers. Clearly she got them sometime before the beginning of the film considering she uses them in her first scene and then extensively throughout THE ENTIRE FILM.

There is no comparison between that and Selvig's failsafe which comes out of nowhere near the end of the final act, or the Alien Army dropping dead even out of nowhere even after that. A better comparison is Loki all of a sudden having mind control powers even though neither he nor the Tesseract show that ability in the previous films. But you'll notice, I'm not complaining about that. Because much like DoFP, it is clearly established in The Avengers that he can do that.

You didn't catch onto the staff having the ability to control minds? Wow. I think I'm just about done discussing this with you. Now you're just talking crazy.

I thought it was his staff that allowed him to do that.

Most people who watched the movie with their eyes open figured it out. Apparently one person didn't or he's just being completely stubborn. It's like he needed The Other to actually verbally say "this staff will allow you to control minds" when he gave it to Loki in the opening sequence. LOL

 

[See Cap Run]

I agree that there wasn't even the slightest moment in Avengers where I felt that illusion especially in the battle of New York. In DOFP I felt that at least once or twice, so even though I probably wasn't exactly at the edge of my seat like others I still bought the big threat. I never did in the Avengers. No more than I would have, seeing Adam West beating a bunch of goons in the original Batman series. Sure it wasn't so much the quality as it was the quantity of the threat and that's the problem right there. It could've easily been hundreds or thousands of anything and it wouldn't have made any difference. The Chitauri themselves were indeed puny enemies who were dropping like flies.

They may not have been the most dangerous Mooks ever however they provided more of a challenge than say Stormtroopers or the Joker's henchmen in the penthouse who tried to fight Batman hand-to-hand as opposed to just shooting him.

There were definitely moments where they had our heroes on the ropes, they weren't always easy to take out. Not only that, but you had the Leviathans which were a much greater threat than the foot soldiers with the only Avengers who stood any chance of taking them out being Iron Man, Thor and Hulk [and when Iron Man did so it grounded him for a while.]

 

[Rock Sexton]

They may not have been the most dangerous Mooks ever however they provided more of a challenge than say Stormtroopers or the Joker's henchmen in the penthouse who tried to fight Batman hand-to-hand as opposed to just shooting him.

There were definitely moments where they had our heroes on the ropes, they weren't always easy to take out. Not only that, but you had the Leviathans which were a much greater threat than the foot soldiers and the only Avengers who stood any chance of taking out were Iron Man, Thor and Hulk [and when Iron Man did so it grounded him for a while.]

I dunno about you, but it was explicitly clear to me that the Chitauri were a threat because of the sheer amount of them and the Leviathans .... not necessarily because of their skillset. The moment Loki says, "send the rest" it becomes obvious. Cap was fatigued. Hulk had been pummeled by a whole gang of chariots and their blasters .... etc. etc. etc.

However I will say in the next film I'd like to see a little more actual physical opposition from the Ultron drones.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

You didn't catch onto the staff having the ability to control minds? Wow. I think I'm just about done discussing this with you. Now you're just talking crazy.

Most people who watched the movie with their eyes open figured it out. Apparently one person didn't or he's just being completely stubborn. It's like he needed The Other to actually verbally say "this staff will allow you to control minds" when he gave it to Loki in the opening sequence. LOL

But he didn't have it in Thor, did he? It is an ability that is first shown, with no explanation before he first uses it in the opening action sequence. Is that DEM? Of course not. But it was the same exact argument you used with Kitty in DoFP. You're being inconsistent.

 

[Rock Sexton]

But he didn't have it in Thor, did he? It is an ability that is first shown, with no explanation before he first uses it in the opening action sequence. Is that DEM? Of course not. But it was the same exact argument you used with Kitty in DoFP. You're being inconsistent.

It's not a DEM because it doesn't offer a solution to a problem the movie poses. Secondly, it didn't have to be in the first Thor movie. It's a weapon created by a new character in the Avengers that's handed down to him. When you see him convert the first SHIELD agent and as he's subdued and his eyes change, you know exactly what it does from there on out.

Kitty wasn't given anything to cause her powers to develop to the point where she can create time travel ...... well she was given it by the writers to facilitate being able to go back in time and merge two casts.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Again, she's a mutant. It has already been established that they have all sorts of unique powers and it is clear she developed them in the many years between appearances. Like I said, you may not think it was set up very well, but it doesn't make it DEM which has a very clear definition as to what it is. What happens with Loki's abilities in The Avengers doesn't fit the definition, and neither is what happens in DoFP.

There is no more to say on the subject. DEM is clearly defined and it is not whatever you think it is. There is no where else to go if just keep making up whatever definitions you want. If you don't want to live in reality, that's your choice.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Again, she's a mutant. It has already been established that they have all sorts of unique powers and it is clear she developed them in the many years between appearances. Like I said, you may not think it was set up very well, but it doesn't make it DEM which has a very clear definition as to what it is. What happens with Loki's abilities in The Avengers doesn't fit the definition, and neither is what happens in DoFP.

It's clear she developed them? Sure, if you take it on it's face and sheer convenience for the solution to the films problem. I mean you bash Erik Selvig's "failsafe" of the portal because you weren't shown when he created it or became self-aware of it as he was under Loki's mind control ..... yet you're perfectly fine with Kitty developing time travel abilities inbetween movies unbeknownst to viewers - especially those familiar with the other films.

There is no more to say on the subject. DEM is clearly defined and it is not whatever you think it is. There is no where else to go if just keep making up whatever definitions you want. If you don't want to live in reality, that's your choice.

You're right there's no more to say. I got that impression the moment you stubbornly claimed to not know it gave Loki the power to control minds.

Now quickly, let us find other people to argue with hahah j/k.

 

[scatterax]

For both it works if you go with it, it doesn't if you don't. I'd rather just to with it cuz it's a good film, and I don't want kitty having new powers to get in the way of me enjoying the story. That's just nitpicky.

 

[Hellion]

Is there a problem with liking both? Because I love both…as a Marvel fan, it's been my dream just to see these films get made…I know I voted, as an X-Fan, I went with DOFP…in the end, I love both…

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Is there a problem with liking both? Because I love both…as a Marvel fan, it's been my dream just to see these films get made…I know I voted, as an X-Fan, I went with DOFP…in the end, I love both…

Of course not. I like them both.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Is there a problem with liking both? Because I love both…as a Marvel fan, it's been my dream just to see these films get made…I know I voted, as an X-Fan, I went with DOFP…in the end, I love both…

Me too. I've just kind of have allegiance to X-Men and the visual style of DOFP was much more ambitious.

 

[psylockolussus]

Agreed.

Though as a movie, I feel like DOFP is really the better movie. More emotion, better acting, less cheesey and I can really feel the stakes. Unlike in the other one, jokes after jokes.

The only thing I would give to The Avengers is they planned this better than how Fox planned DOFP. I felt like there has been so many things that happened off-screen between the previous X-Men films and DOFP. I didn't really feel that with the Avengers.

 

[scatterax]

Agreed.

Though as a movie, I feel like DOFP is really the better movie. More emotion, better acting, less cheesey and I can really feel the stakes. Unlike in the other one, jokes after jokes.

The only thing I would give to The Avengers is they planned this better than how Fox planned DOFP. I felt like there has been so many things that happened off-screen between the previous X-Men films and DOFP. I didn't really feel that with the Avengers.

At least with whedon any cheese is intentional, and a fine Gouda, and not some super processed American cheese.

And DoFP is fox apologizing for not planning at all.

They're both awesome, but I gotta go avengers, as that movie is more true to it's heroes and the spirit of adventure.

 

[metaphysician]

You didn't catch onto the staff having the ability to control minds? Wow. I think I'm just about done discussing this with you. Now you're just talking crazy.

Never mind the staff, its outright factually wrong even from just Thor. While you can argue that his going unseen in the SHIELD temporary facility could be physical illusions, the stinger is very obviously pointing to him possessing and influencing Selvig.

 

[DACrowe]

At least with whedon any cheese is intentional, and a fine Gouda, and not some super processed American cheese.

And DoFP is fox apologizing for not planning at all.

They're both awesome, but I gotta go avengers, as that movie is more true to it's heroes and the spirit of adventure.

But by the same token, Marvel's planning has hurt the overall quality of certain MCU films like Iron Man 2. Planning or not, when taken a single adventure I think it can be fairly argued that Days of Future Past offers more.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

But by the same token, Marvel's planning has hurt the overall quality of certain MCU films like Iron Man 2. Planning or not, when taken a single adventure I think it can be fairly argued that Days of Future Past offers more.

I didn't feel that way. I felt DOFP was just a story saying oops the last few wolverine movies and the last xmen united was a boo boo. I just felt like this was an (and it was) eraser movie. I love the xmen, but I did feel a little let down by this movie. I am looking forward to apocalypse because I think that would be the true test of the xmen franchise, but if they want to do apocalypse right it probably should be a two or movie thing. After AoA I really don't know where the xmen can go for that matter. I felt avengers was better because you can clearly see that it is building to something much bigger, and I get the feeling DOFP is trying to do the same; however, I don't feel it was as enticing to me.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

I'm gonna go with Days Of Future Past. Both films are great in their own unique way. I just find DOFP more appealing.

 

[DrCosmic]

Regarding your first point: the possibility of Loki's mind-control being fought off to a very minute degree was established at the beginning of The Avengers, not by exposition but by character behavior, when Hawkeye shot Fury in the vest rather than taking the head shot. [it was discussed in deleted scenes but not in the movie itself]

As regards your second point, the hive-mind/queen-bee aspect of the Chitauri was set up subtly when Hulk took out the Leviathan and all the Chitauri yelled out in pain. While the keystone army trope is not favorite, I understand why Joss employed it as I can't think of another way off the top of my head to wrap up the story without The Avengers having to fight on for a loooong time.

Now as regards some posters feeling that there wasn't any doubt The Avengers would win, I'd argue that there were multiple points throughout the battle where it seemed like The Avengers were having a very rough go of it and for a while it even looked certain that the Chitauri would be victorious.

1. Right before Black Widow gets a boost from Captain America, she is fighting off a Chitauri soldier and she barely attains victory by the skin of her teeth and you can tell she knows they will loose if they don't figure out a way to shut off the Cube.

2. Secondly, there was a point where Cap was pinned to the ground by a Chitauri soldier and right after he defeats it, Barton informs him of the bank civilian situation and he says very wearily, "I'm on it!"

3. Right after Cap got blown through the bank window and onto the car, you could tell he had a definite "how the hell are we going to win this" moment.

4. when Hawkeye has to jump from his rooftop when he spots an entire swarm of Chitauri coming towards him and crash through the window.

5. when the Hulk was swarmed by all the Chitauri and they had him on the ropes

6. When Fury told Stark about the nuke, he had been pinned down to the ground by the Chitauri ever since he crashed through the Leviathan

7. and finally, probably the most hopeless moment was right after Cap got shot: Thor asked him if he was ready for another bout and Cap replied, "What, you gettin' sleepy?" but by the two Chris's performances in that scene that everything was pretty much going to hell in a handbasket.

Now, of course everyone know that The Avengers are going to win as the good guys most if not all action movies have to come out victorious, but the way it was executed make victory look nigh impossible.

For me personally, I found that downturn in the fight to be ineffective. The mood was way too cheery and bright and hopeful, so when the Chitauri all ganged up on Hulk to pin him down, I understood what the film was trying to communicate, but part of me just rolled my eyes. We've seen what the Hulk is, what he can do. He's not pinned down for any serious amount of time. The worst case scenario at that point is Hulk and Thor defeating the entire Chitauri army on their own one by one.

I still enjoyed it, because the fight needed a downturn, but I felt absolutely no tension and desperation, it was just a nice rest from the Avengers unilaterally wrecking shop.

 

[def28]

7. and finally, probably the most hopeless moment was right after Cap got shot: Thor asked him if he was ready for another bout and Cap replied, "What, you gettin' sleepy?" but by the two Chris's performances in that scene that everything was pretty much going to hell in a handbasket.

Loved that part.

I always get the vibe that the audience is with Cap the most, and he sells that hit. Also dug how Thor just owned and they didn't show him in the same situation.

The franchise overall really gets these characters. Pretty amazing how well.