Arrow The Barry Allen/The Flash Thread - Part 1

[Savage]

So the faithfulness of a character's appearance is pretty much based around how many people you'll piss off if you change it.

 

[Human Torch]

Well,if we're really going into the race change thing again,I'll give my usual stance:I believe in treating the character as if he/she existed and would adapt them accordingly. Denzel Washington is a fantastic actor,but I wouldn't cast him as Abraham Lincoln.That doesn't mean he couldn't do as good or better than a white actor (in fact, I bet he could),but he doesn't fit the look of Lincoln for obvious reasons.

In regards to things like a blond Superman:I could give things like Barry not being a golden blond a pass,but certain characters (particularly unmasked ones) shouldn't have their look altered from their iconic original look.I'm still bummed we don't have a blue-eyed Wonder Woman.(Unless,of course they pull an "Alba")

 

[Savage]

I feel it's different for actual historical figures. At that point it's insulting not to have an actor look like the person he or she is portraying (not character. Person.) With fictional characters I'm more concerned with getting that same feel and recognizable personality traits that I liked about them. Appearance only comes into the equation based upon location and history. If a character comes from a line of African kings then I expect that to reflect in his appearance. If the character was born in the United States then chances are high that he or she would be one of many different races or even more likely a mix of two.

It's just one of those things that's more inconsequential than people think. Superman also wore trunks for decades but that changed so a red cape being another color isn't that far fetched and neither is a hair color change (Lois Lane) or race change (Perry White).

 

[Kevin Smith]

So the faithfulness of a character's appearance is pretty much based around how many people you'll piss off if you change it.

If it's not broke, don't fix it. That should be the general rule with this stuff.

 

[Savage]

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Ah. I see. I think what a lot of fans miss is that if a change is made in a movie or any adaptation that it does not negate a previous history. Those things still exist. These are just more versions of that thing. They are elseworld stories. You can't fix something if it doesn't even exist yet. Only create. If anything I'd think comic book fans would be more open to the concept of other realities.

 

[Lord Valumart]

But Superman is not John Constantine, who only a handful of people in comparison are aware of. If this were 1940, sure, make the cape blue if you want, give him different colored hair, but the character is so big and so HUGE and such an important cornerstone of pop culture you lose something if you take something like his hair color away from him. Something in his essence is lost.

I care more about Constantine than Superman and I'm willing to let changes in his looks go as long as the character is right. So am I somehow less of a fan of my character than you are of yours because I'm willing to accept changes to a different medium that have no impact on the comics that I discovered and enjoyed the character in?

 

[Kevin Smith]

I feel it's different for actual historical figures. At that point it's insulting not to have an actor look like the person he or she is portraying (not character. Person.) With fictional characters I'm more concerned with getting that same feel and recognizable personality traits that I liked about them. Appearance only comes into the equation based upon location and history. If a character comes from a line of African kings then I expect that to reflect in his appearance.

So having a character like that white or yellow at random would piss you off?

If the character was born in the United States then chances are high that he or she would be one of many different races or even more likely a mix of two.

It's just one of those things that's more inconsequential than people think. Superman also wore trunks for decades but that changed so a red cape being another color isn't that far fetched and neither is a hair color change (Lois Lane) or race change (Perry White).

Lois Lane isn't Superman, Perry White isn't Lois Lane, and not all the changes (like the new "improved" costumes) are good - in fact, most suck.

Also, is there any real reason for Perry to have his race changed? Just curious....I mean I could give a **** about Perry really, I don't live and die with him, but I don't think it was necessary to change his race either.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I care more about Constantine than Superman and I'm willing to let changes in his looks go as long as the character is right. So am I somehow less of a fan of my character than you are of yours because I'm willing to accept changes to a different medium that have no impact on the comics that I discovered and enjoyed the character in?

Yep.

You're just happy to have a movie about your guy.

What if they made him 400 lbs or a midget, would you be cool with that as long as he had his personality still or no...?

 

[Lord Valumart]

Lois Lane isn't Superman, Perry White isn't Lois Lane, and not all the changes (like the new "improved" costumes) are good - in fact, most suck.

"we had change round here once... We didn't like none."

Also, is there any real reason for Perry to have his race changed? Just curious....I mean I could give a **** about Perry really, I don't live and die with him, but I don't think it was necessary to change his race either.

Was there any reason not to cast a well known actor in a part that will be in several future movies?

Yes. You're just happy to have a movie about your guy.

Aren't we all? And isn't that the main reason we're here?

 

[Savage]

So having a character like that white or yellow at random would piss you off?

Yes! Look at this.

African King cast Asian - "Well that doesn't even make sense."
Mid-West Boy - "Well I guess that could be anything."

I'm not going to freak and yell "Who has ever heard of a black mid-western boy?!" like I'd yell "Who's ever heard of an Asian African King?!"

Lois Lane isn't Superman, Perry White isn't Lois Lane, and not all the changes (like the new "improved" costumes) are good - in fact, most suck.

Also, is there any real reason for Perry to have his race changed? Just curious....I mean I could give a **** about Perry really, I don't live and die with him, but I don't think it was necessary to change his race either.

Comic books themselves are not necessary. They're as arbitrary as any other form of entertainment. Their purpose is to entertain and if they can do that still while making changes then more power to them. Is it necessary to change Perry White's race? No. The question is is it necessary to keep him white. Also I like the Man of Steel and New 52 costumes more than the old ones.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'll answer the question.

Superman's dark hair is one of his defining traits. It's like his red cape. He has to have it. But then again I suppose you're going to tell me you'd be cool if they changed his cape to blue as well.

Flash Gordon has yellow hair. It's one of his defining physical traits. Superman has black hair. It's part of what makes them up as characters along with their names.

How things look is not their definition, by definition.

The Flash wears a cowl/mask that covers his head most of the time, so this isn't as important, plus they went with brunette, which is closer to blonde than say....black or dark brown is. Green Arrow wears a hood (and hat in the comics), although I'd prefer he be blonde, dirty blonde like Amell is isn't the worst thing he could be, and is still closer to blonde than the other hair colors I mentioned. It's similar to the Flash thing.

So changes in shade is cool. Awesome.

Alright, how about yellow? Orange? Green? Blue? Take your pick. I didn't have to say rainbow, but they're all fair comparisons as Sinestro is technicolored to begin with. Yes it is reasonable, yes it is logical.

How about a darker shade of purple, since that's what we're talking about, different shades of the same spectrum.

And a canadian native will look more like Wally West than say...a native from Kenya. And Wally being black wouldn't be a "darker shade of brown", as Wally isn't ANY "shade of brown" to begin with, he is white, or "pink" I guess you could say, and a "darker shade" of that might be indian, "red skinned", maybe, or asian, "yellow"...all those are closer to "pink". Brown and black are on the other end of the spectrum.

No one reading this is this color:

This is the color of people, including you, me and Wally West:

Put your hand on the screen and tell me I'm wrong, try to take back your own admission that we are all on the same spectrum, a spectrum that "black" people occur all along, not just "down at the other end." We've all been trained to believe there's some big difference between black people and white people, but there isn't. It's just a couple shades, and for you, you feel like that's as bad as changing to a different spectrum, even though you know its the same spectrum. It sounds like how you feel isn't based in reality.

PS: Please don't ever be confident enough in your view to tell a darker brown skinned or worse "red" skinned person that they aren't a native of Canada. You may find your mind blown.

 

[Lord Valumart]

Yep.

You're just happy to have a movie about your guy.

What if they made him 400 lbs or a midget, would you be cool with that as long as he had his personality still or no...?

Hang on, you edited that.

Anyhow, thats just taking the piss. It's not on the same level as that actually changes who the character is.

 

[Kevin Smith]

"we had change round here once... We didn't like none."

Nice strawman, yeah, not all change is good.

Was there any reason not to cast a well known actor in a part that will be in several future movies?

You mean like Frank Langella or Jackie Cooper? Of course not.

Aren't we all? And isn't that the main reason we're here?

Well yes, but beggars can't be choosers in Constantine's case.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Ah. I see. I think what a lot of fans miss is that if a change is made in a movie or any adaptation that it does not negate a previous history. Those things still exist. These are just more versions of that thing. They are elseworld stories. You can't fix something if it doesn't even exist yet. Only create. If anything I'd think comic book fans would be more open to the concept of other realities.

The movies are their own thing, you know that...there isn't a white Perry White that exists in some other Earth 2 realm in the movies presently, there is what's on screen and that's it. The alternate realities all coexist in the comics, but in the movies, there can only be one.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Yes! Look at this.

African King cast Asian - "Well that doesn't even make sense."
Mid-West Boy - "Well I guess that could be anything."

I'm not going to freak and yell "Who has ever heard of a black mid-western boy?!" like I'd yell "Who's ever heard of an Asian African King?!"

Comic books themselves are not necessary. They're as arbitrary as any other form of entertainment. Their purpose is to entertain and if they can do that still while making changes then more power to them. Is it necessary to change Perry White's race? No. The question is is it necessary to keep him white.

The next movie: Superman has an elephant head while wearing a tutu battling a planet.

Changes and entertaining!

Also I like the Man of Steel and New 52 costumes more than the old ones.

I don't. I think the New 52 suit sucks and prefer the comic book suit, his REAL costume, to all that other crap.

 

[Human Torch]

If it's not broke, don't fix it. That should be the general rule with this stuff.

Basically this.

 

[Kevin Smith]

How things look is not their definition, by definition.

How come physical descriptions are (usually) only given for manhunts then, and not personality traits or quirks?

So changes in shade is cool. Awesome.

Sometimes.

How about a darker shade of purple, since that's what we're talking about, different shades of the same spectrum.

Only it's not what we were talking about at all, blonde hair vs black hair, white skin vs black skin, these are visual opposites. So how about no.

No one reading this is this color:

I did not mean literally "pink", just like Indians aren't literally "red", asians aren't literally "yellow", etc.

This is the color of people, including you, me and Wally West:

This guy begs to differ.

Put your hand on the screen and tell me I'm wrong,

You're wrong.

try to take back your own admission that we are all on the same spectrum, a spectrum that "black" people occur all along, not just "down at the other end."

Or it could be white people "down at the other end" depending on where you're at.

We've all been trained to believe there's some big difference between black people and white people, but there isn't. It's just a couple shades, and for you, you feel like that's as bad as changing to a different spectrum, even though you know its the same spectrum. It sounds like how you feel isn't based in reality.

Maybe you've been "trained" to believe that, but the only difference between white people and black people is skin color - visual appearance. That's it. And in the case of Sinestro, he is technicolor to begin with so comparing him to another technicolor is fair game and comparison and consistent with my argument.

PS: Please don't ever be confident enough in your view to tell a darker brown skinned or worse "red" skinned person that they aren't a native of Canada. You may find your mind blown.

I was not implying that there are no "darker brown skinned" or "red skinned" natives of Canada at all, it sounds like you missed my point completely. No matter where you're from in the world, if you look like Wally West, you look like Wally West (white, red hair, etc).

 

[Savage]

The movies are their own thing, you know that...there isn't a white Perry White that exists in some other Earth 2 realm in the movies presently, there is what's on screen and that's it. The alternate realities all coexist in the comics, but in the movies, there can only be one.

That is exactly my point. The movie is a separate reality from the comics so anything different in them does not ruin the source material.

The next movie: Superman has an elephant head while wearing a tutu battling a planet.

Changes and entertaining!

Yes, because there are as many differences between the races as there are between species. Who knew that Dr. Martin Luther King was so wrong?

I don't. I think the New 52 suit sucks and prefer the comic book suit, his REAL costume, to all that other crap.

His real costume? Which one. Thousands of them have been manufactured by various companies. In fact those costumes are more real than he is.

 

[DrCosmic]

How come physical descriptions are (usually) only given for manhunts then, and not personality traits or quirks?

Sometimes.

Only it's not what we were talking about at all, blonde hair vs black hair, white skin vs black skin, these are visual opposites. So how about no.

I did not mean literally "pink", just like Indians aren't literally "red", asians aren't literally "yellow", etc.

This guy begs to differ.

This guy is your proof that people aren't all shades of brown? The fact that you didn't actually mean pink is your support that all people aren't shades of brown? People who say what the perp put on this morning are defining them?

If you can say that these are your points without clarification, you win the argument, no questions asked.

Or it could be white people "down at the other end" depending on where you're at.

Or it could be white and black people on the same end. It's just not a big difference most of the time. Or if you count the whole spectrum from actual black to white, almost everyone is in the middle together. Why would you want to define Beige people and Caramel people as opposites visually? How does that make sense?

Maybe you've been "trained" to believe that, but the only difference between white people and black people is skin color - visual appearance. That's it. And in the case of Sinestro, he is technicolor to begin with so comparing him to another technicolor is fair game and comparison and consistent with my argument.

I agree changing Sinestro to a darker shade of purple is a consistent comparison. But you are trying to define Sinestro as having 'technicolor' skin instead of purple skin tone so that you can compare a radical change to a minor one that happens all the time unnoticed.

I was not implying that there are no "darker brown skinned" or "red skinned" natives of Canada at all, it sounds like you missed my point completely. No matter where you're from in the world, if you look like Wally West, you look like Wally West (white, red hair, etc).

Then you should have said that instead of saying that natives of Canada look like Wally West. But with that circular reasoning, perhaps you should have just left that point off altogether.

EDIT: I'm going to stop using the words black and white and start using people's actual colors to highlight how silly it is to harp on differences in the shade of brown. We'll sound like newlyweds arguing over the drapes. It'll be a blast!

 

[Shikamaru]

My personal opinion on Wally being black: It's not Wally being made black that's the issue, but the reason behind Wally being made black.

If they get a black actor for the part because he was absolutely the best actor they could find for the part, so be it. However, the reports are saying they are specifically looking for a black actor. Altering a character's ethnicity just for the sake of political and social relevance never works and comes off as disrespectful.

Why did Perry White's casting work? Because they got a perfect actor for the part that just happened to be black. Why did Harvey Dent's casting work? Because they got a perfect actor for the part that just happened to be blonde instead of black-haired.

 

[Kevin Smith]

That is exactly my point. The movie is a separate reality from the comics so anything different in them does not ruin the source material.

Movies are supposed to represent the source material and changing things doesn't ruin the source material, it just misrepresents it, just like when a director putting his input over an excellent script doesn't ruin an excellent script...it just makes a poor representation of it, a poor movie (results may vary).

Yes, because there are as many differences between the races as there are between species. Who knew that Dr. Martin Luther King was so wrong?

Well Superman is an alien, who says he has to be humanoid? I mean, that's no more defining to him than his red cape, hair, or skin color according to you, right? Why would an alien even look humanoid anyway?

His real costume? Which one. Thousands of them have been manufactured by various companies. In fact those costumes are more real than he is.

The one he has worn in the comics for nearly 70 years (or to make it easier for you - anything that ISN'T the New 52 suit, Smallville, MOS, or even Returns suit).

 

[Kevin Smith]

This guy is your proof that people aren't all shades of brown?

No, he is my proof that there are skin colors that are not on the "end all - be all" people color chart you provided.

The fact that you didn't actually mean pink is your support that all people aren't shades of brown?

People are all different shades of brown at very varying degrees, I agree, some you can barely note the differences, others are practically photo-negative like. But fortunately for us, Wally's "shade of brown" has already been determined, so it shouldn't be so hard to cast accordingly.

People who say what the perp put on this morning are defining them?

Things like height, age, race, hair, and skin color are defining physical traits, wouldn't you agree? And help make us up as people. If the perp has a third eye or is missing an arm, wouldn't that be defining to you (in addition to the crime of course, which defines his character, not his appearance - however appearance and character are part of the equation that makes us up as people)?

If you can say that these are your points without clarification, you win the argument, no questions asked.

Lol. Well since you rearranged everything I said, now they need clarification.

Or it could be white and black people on the same end.

On a circular color spectrum I believe that would be the case; to have the most visually distinct colors back to back to each other, serving as the beginning and end of the spectrum, respectively, so I believe you are right about that.

It's just not a big difference most of the time. Or if you count the whole spectrum from actual black to white, almost everyone is in the middle together. Why would you want to define Beige people and Caramel people as opposites visually? How does that make sense?

The closer you get to the middle of course the colors blend together more - what's your point? That a mexican could play an italian guy or vice versa, since they're both similar shades of "orange"?

And beige and caramel are the same, huh...you're clearly not an artist.

I agree changing Sinestro to a darker shade of purple is a consistent comparison. But you are trying to define Sinestro as having 'technicolor' skin instead of purple skin tone so that you can compare a radical change to a minor one that happens all the time unnoticed.

Purple is a vibrant tecnhicolor, like yellow, green, etc. Making Superman black or Static Shock white are not "minor changes" that would go unnoticed, having someone who is supposed to be white played by someone black or vice versa is not a minor change that "goes unnoticed", and that is the point I was trying to make with the Sinestro thing.

Then you should have said that instead of saying that natives of Canada look like Wally West. But with that circular reasoning, perhaps you should have just left that point off altogether.

Look, my point with that was that there is a higher percentage of whites in Canada than there are in Kenya, therefore statistically someone from Canada would be a better fit for the part of a character who is white than someone from Kenya.

EDIT: I'm going to stop using the words black and white and start using people's actual colors to highlight how silly it is to harp on differences in the shade of brown. We'll sound like newlyweds arguing over the drapes. It'll be a blast!

If the colors are all the same and so similar, why are there different names for all of them and distinctions then? Saying african over black isn't going to make me not think of a color any less than saying black over african, and neither is caucasian over white(/"pink"), indian over "red", etc, all those are, are perhaps more civilized and socially serviceable ways of putting them. There isn't anything wrong with any color or any "shade of brown", nope, not at all - but two shades of brown are two shades of brown.

 

[Kevin Smith]

My personal opinion on Wally being black: It's not Wally being made black that's the issue, but the reason behind Wally being made black.

If they get a black actor for the part because he was absolutely the best actor they could find for the part, so be it. However, the reports are saying they are specifically looking for a black actor. Altering a character's ethnicity just for the sake of political and social relevance never works and comes off as disrespectful.

If they're doing a show in a country where all the entertainment industry is black and want to do a live action adaptation of The Flash, then of course, have at it. Cast everyone black with the best actors you have.

But such is not the case here.

Why did Perry White's casting work? Because they got a perfect actor for the part that just happened to be black.

Meh. They wanted black Perry White, specifically. There are dozens of other white guys who could have played the part just as good if not better than Fishburne did. He didn't bring anything unique to the role (...other than, well...being black, if you count that).

Why did Harvey Dent's casting work? Because they got a perfect actor for the part that just happened to be blonde instead of black-haired.

No love for Billy Dee?

 

[Savage]

Movies are supposed to represent the source material and changing things doesn't ruin the source material, it just misrepresents it, just like when a director putting his input over an excellent script doesn't ruin an excellent script...it just makes a poor representation of it, a poor movie (results may vary).

No, movies are based on the source material. They are inspired by it and sometimes even come off better (Blade). Whether the writer is good enough to create something better than the source material or not is usually a toss up. They're interesting interpretations (like Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns books are an interesting interpretation of Batman and his characters). That is all that they are. Michelle Pfeiffer being blonde does not make her any less of an awesome Catwoman and neither would a blonde Superman or, in this case, a black Wally West.

Well Superman is an alien, who says he has to be humanoid? I mean, that's no more defining to him than his red cape, hair, or skin color according to you, right? Why would an alien even look humanoid anyway?

You know, you are absolutely right. I think he would actually look pretty badass as a Klingon. Or at least with some Vulcan ears and eyebrows. Sub-Mariner's already doing that but that guy's not getting a movie any time soon.

The one he has worn in the comics for nearly 70 years (or to make it easier for you - anything that ISN'T the New 52 suit, Smallville, MOS, or even Returns suit).

How are any of those any less "real" than the one that's been worn the most often? By that logic this is the "real" Batman costume.

 

[Rorschach2012]

There is nothing wrong with wanting live action comic book characters to look like their comic book counterparts. A comic book movie is an adaptation of a visual medium, naturally the filmmaker should strive to make his product visually similar to the source material.

That being said, I'm fine with a black Wally West. But I firmly believe that any live action DC characters should aim to look similar to the source material and I'd prefer a ginger Wally. Just because I prefer them to stick to the original look that I've become accustomed to.

Still though, a black Wally is a welcome change and it doesn't bother me. If Wally's eventual Kid Flash suit is badass and the characterization is on point then I'll have no complaints.