Arrow The Barry Allen/The Flash Thread - Part 1

[Rorschach2012]

Well, yeah it's okay to think it's a big change, that makes sense. It's not really okay to say 'they're just doing it for X reason' with no basis. That's slander or something. Definitely not okay. I suppose it's 'okay' to look at art in terms of broke and fixed, but it's so blind and limited, it's hard for me to accept that someone would want to live that way, especially if it's done selectively. But maybe I just should. -shrug-

Ehhhh actually everything I said is okay to say. They aren't improving the character by changing his race. At the moment, there is no reason given for the race change. So yeah it seems unnecessary. And until they explain their reasoning I will think it is an unnecessary change. They aren't improving on the character by changing his race. And the only benefit I can think of from this race change is diversity. And that is a-okay, it helps appeal to a wider audience. But no, it isn't necessary.

 

[DrCosmic]

How do you know they're not improving the character by changing his race? How do you know they're not improving the overall story by changing his race? How do you know appealing to a wider audience isn't necessary? It's not necessary to make a faithful adaptation, sure, but every adaptation has several concerns equal to or greater than faithfulness.

 

[Rorschach2012]

And until they explain their reasoning I will think it is an unnecessary change.

Please DrCosmic, tell me how they could improve the overall story by changing his race.

And it's not necessary for them to change his race to appeal to a wider audience because countless superhero adaptations have done the opposite and have been plenty successful. I seriously don't understand most of the "points" that you've been attempting to make in this thread.


I'm open to the race change, but until I see the final product, I will remain skeptical.

I'm done with this, our opinions are way too different and i dislike discussing this with you. You've made this discussion into such a huge deal. Unnecessarily so.

Fans of comics are hardcore, they don't want their precious characters to be changed. Accept that. Don't try to make us feel bad for disliking change.

Your responses to Kevin Smith's logical defense of maintaining a character's classic appearance made this discussion into such a negative thing that I dislike even coming to this thread anymore.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Sure the Wally character isn't broke and doesn't need to be fixed, but who's to say that changing something like skin color or whatever wouldn't *improve* the character to new hieghts?

Not to stir all this up again since I've taken myself out of the convo, but it's honestly one of those things where we don't know until (if) a change happens. If it flops then yeah, the change wasn't worth it or working, but if it works then you've now enhanced that character even further and becomes an even better thing no?

Or it was just a bad choice that has nothing to do with race?

The whole Laurel/BC situation isn't a flop cause they cast a white girl. They cast the wrong white girl and found a better one later. Or the writing sucked to begin with.

It's numerous reasons.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Wally was fine the way he was. That's the main point. No change was necessary.

I'm just glad we could be getting a live action Wally in general. Would I prefer for him to have his signature red hair? Yes. But I'm already over it, and I'm just hoping that his costume and characterization are on point since the creators clearly don't care about maintaining his usual appearance out of costume.

 

[mkilban2]

Or it was just a bad choice that has nothing to do with race?

The whole Laurel/BC situation isn't a flop cause they cast a white girl. They cast the wrong white girl and found a better one later. Or the writing sucked to begin with.

It's numerous reasons.

Yeah I was just being too general that its either A or B, lots of things factor in. A spitting image comic Wally with perfect everything down to the costume bots could still be horrible. It's honestly a wait and see then evaluate type thing in my eyes. White, black, blonde, short, tall, whatever, it all comes down to the execution. That's why I don't hesitate over changing things because even if done by the book to a T it can still go wrong, just like deviating from the source that works in the source could be even better than the original. It's impossible to know until the trigger is pulled. But, we are here to speculate and argue about all these things before we see all this stuff, even if that's not what I generally try to do myself.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Yeah I was just being too general that its either A or B, lots of things factor in. A spitting image comic Wally with perfect everything down to the costume bots could still be horrible. It's honestly a wait and see then evaluate type thing in my eyes. White, black, blonde, short, tall, whatever, it all comes down to the execution. That's why I don't hesitate over changing things because even if done by the book to a T it can still go wrong, just like deviating from the source that works in the source could be even better than the original. It's impossible to know until the trigger is pulled. But, we are here to speculate and argue about all these things before we see all this stuff, even if that's not what I generally try to do myself.

Agreed completely with this. For me, it just comes down to who is right for the role. If they're considering doing a race change, they should be open to all races, and should be focused more on finding the best person for the role, rather than specifically targeting certain races for the role. By only going after a certain race, and not going after the best actor for the role, they're limiting themselves.

 

[mkilban2]

Agreed completely with this. For me, it just comes down to who is right for the role. If they're considering doing a race change, they should be open to all races, and should be focused more on finding the best person for the role, rather than specifically targeting certain races for the role. By only going after a certain race, and not going after the best actor for the role, they're limiting themselves.

Yup, just like when Donald Glover could have been Spidey or Michael B Jordan (i think thats his name) might be Johnny Storm. I felt those choices are because they seem(ed) to be the best person to give life to the role. The same stands true to me in this possible scenario.

But, in saying that, I'm also open to them changing things to change them for other reasons too. Like as was brought up before, a straight hero being made gay or a race change because they seek out to actually change the race. But I chalk those feelings up to me not being a comic reader so those changes aren't a big deal to me because I just want to see the product on screen done well. Although I do fully understand that doin that crosses a lot of lines to those who have been reading the source material for umpteen years.

As long as I enjoy the experience on screen, I'm a happy camper no matter how different from or similar to the books it is. But that's just me and I don't expect everyone or anyone else to feel that way haha.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Yup, just like when Donald Glover could have been Spidey or Michael B Jordan (i think thats his name) might be Johnny Storm. I felt those choices are because they seem(ed) to be the best person to give life to the role. The same stands true to me in this possible scenario.

Agreed, I was a supporter of Donald Glover for Spider Man because he seemed so perfect for the role. In cases like that, a race change makes so much sense.

But, in saying that, I'm also open to them changing things to change them for other reasons too. Like as was brought up before, a straight hero being made gay or a race change because they seek out to actually change the race. But I chalk those feelings up to me not being a comic reader so those changes aren't a big deal to me because I just want to see the product on screen done well. Although I do fully understand that doin that crosses a lot of lines to those who have been reading the source material for umpteen years.

If there is nothing inherently wrong with the characters to begin with, I prefer them to stay the same. If there's a benefit to a race or sexual orientation change, then I'll support it. That's good that you realize that other people have a problem with changes like that and don't try to make those people feel bad about having those feelings.

As long as I enjoy the experience on screen, I'm a happy camper no matter how different from the books it is. But that's just me and I don't expect everyone or anyone else to feel that way haha.

Agreed. This is the bottom line. It's all that matters in the end.

 

[mkilban2]

If there is nothing inherently wrong with the characters to begin with, I prefer them to stay the same. If there's a benefit to a race or sexual orientation change, then I'll support it. That's good that you realize that other people have a problem with changes like that and don't try to make those people feel bad about having those feelings.

Yeah I wouldn't invoke something be changed, just to change it. I'm just open to it, if those changes happen, that someone making that decision thinks it will ultimately enhance the character as a whole. I don't exactly know if anything like that has been done before and worked/failed, but I'm just hypothetically saying it wouldn't bug me, if it happened to be as good or better than the original. But, if these things have been executed properly in the past then yeah, there's no reason to change them just to change them, but I'm also not opposed to changes being made, if that makes sense lol.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Sure the Wally character isn't broke and doesn't need to be fixed, but who's to say that changing something like skin color or whatever wouldn't *improve* the character to new hieghts?

Not to stir all this up again since I've taken myself out of the convo, but it's honestly one of those things where we don't know until (if) a change happens. If it flops then yeah, the change wasn't worth it or working, but if it works then you've now enhanced that character even further and becomes an even better thing no?

Is it worth waiting to see if it will flop to do that though, especially when it's not broken to begin with? And in the case of Iris West, with what we know about her from the information that's been released so far, I don't think this change is for the better at all because the only similarity between her and the comics Iris other than name is that she digs Barry...kind of. But that's it. And even if it doesn't flat out suck, what if the change is really just serviceable, which is in all likeliness the best you could hope for, "exceeding" everything being kind of a pipe dream when the character was already great the way it was to begin with. To me, when you change anything, anything less than improvement is bad.

But again, with a character like Wally, like the Human Torch, etc, when you change their skin color, you're not just changing their skin color, you're changing other characters as well and in turn changing their stories - how will you have white Wally West but black Iris West or vice versa (maybe Iris' sibling (Wally's parent on the West side) is white or adopted?)? White Sue Storm but black Johnny Storm - how will you have those without changing their stories? It just comes down to what is really the point of all this.

Why is Superman's cape red? Why does it have to be red? What if it were changed to blue or yellow, and why shouldn't it be? I'd be very against this too, but the race change thing is very similar, if not the same thing to me as this in many cases - at what point do you decide what to keep and not to keep with a character that keeps them what they are when you go about stripping things away? With each thing you take away from a good character they become more of a dilution and less themselves. I'd say given the information we've been given about her on the show so far, it's safe to say they've thrown everything about Iris West out the window, so much so where it is not Iris West at all, but there are people I'm sure who will argue that she "is" Iris West in spite of all this, simply because someone pointed to this character and said to them "hey, that's Iris West!", and they just accept that. Same with Superman's blue cape, someone points to blue caped Superman and says, "hey, that's Superman!", and they just accept it. Well it may seem silly to some people, but ALL of these things, "minor" and major, they all make up the characters, and the only reason any minor OR major thing should be omitted about ANY character in ANYTHING, ever, in any fictitious work, is if it is silly and stupid and does not work as is, or is doing the characters a disservice. PERIOD.

How do you know they're not improving the character by changing his race? How do you know they're not improving the overall story by changing his race? How do you know appealing to a wider audience isn't necessary? It's not necessary to make a faithful adaptation, sure, but every adaptation has several concerns equal to or greater than faithfulness.

The only time it is ever NOT "necessary" to do a faithful adaptation of something is if the source material is BAD to begin with (or dead in some cases, which I guess goes back to it qualifying as bad), which in most of the cases we're talking about, it's most certainly not, and there isn't anything wrong with the way Wally West and CO are, in fact, they're quite perfect the way they are in many ways. And how does making Wally black make him appeal to a wider audience? As if a black person couldn't identify with Wally the way he is because he is white, or can NOT identify with a character because the character's skin doesn't match their own - that right there is absolute horsecrap, when people of all ages and ethnicities have identified with the likes of Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, etc, without physically looking like them, for decades. I identified with Static growing up even though I wasn't black. If making Wally (or Iris) black makes him appealing to black people, does he suddenly become not appealing to white people? Can you only appeal to one group at a time? Because if that is not the case, then Wally is already appealing enough to all audiences the way he is, and a change, black, red, whatever, will not "improve" this. There's just no reason for the change(s), period, other than just for the hell of it.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Dude I LOVE that episode! I tried to watch the Mirror Master episode a couple days ago, but wasn't feelin it... the best episodes imo were the Trickster ones and the Captain Cold ep. It's very inspired by Burton's Batman, and I dig that.

Captain Cold was handled really well in the episode for what it was I thought. The idea of him as a hitman was pretty cool I thought (no pun intended). I loved his snow globe trick!

I'd really have loved to have seen that Rogues teamup in season 2 the writers talked about doing. Sad we never got to see it.

There's some other good episodes too, the one "Beat The Clock" is pretty good, and I think there's one where Flash vibrates to get drugs out of his system someone shoots him up with which was pretty awesome, but I can't remember the name of it...

 

[mkilban2]

Yeah KS I get where you're coming from, I'm not trying to impose my views on you or anything, just throwing them out there. They can change the color of Supes cape I don't see how that matters other than "it's not the way it is in the comics." But again, that's just how I see it.

While these things like Iris are adaptations from the comics i think you need to understand that they're new adaptations of these things, even if they were done right in the comics they can still be changed in a different medium. That doesn't make then wrong it only makes them something that you personally wouldn't like to see. Who's to say this Iris West won't be better than however the comics version has been written? (I know if its not broke dont fix it, but an adaptation that differs doesn't mean a bad thing necessarily)

You seem to be so against anything being changed that it instantly ruins any enjoyment you could have from that product. That's such a sour way to go about it lol, I mean wouldn't a fan of Flash want to see him no matter how different he is? I'm sure he hasn't been portrayed the same way everytime he's shown or reshown in the comics so what's so wrong about another adaptation in a different medium? Just because you like one certain adaptation of him the most doesn't make the rest of his adaptions wrong. If x story/portrayal of his is your favorite, that doesn't mean his new 52 version or 90s TV version, or Injustice Gods Among Us version, or his upcoming Tv show version, or any version that isn't version X is wrong, it simply means that you don't like it, but millions of other people do or might if exposed to it, maybe even much more than that adaptation you or most consider perfect.

I'm not trying to change your views and opinions so sorry if its at all coming off that way, I'm just trying to be more logical about it I guess. I think you'd find more comfort in being open to these or any changes rather than denouncing them from the get go. But that's just me and I don't want to tell you or anyone what to do/think. I have no real dog in any topics in the SHh that I involve myself in. I try to take all these things at face value after I actually see them done.

 

[Paradox1]

Any change to Iris West is a good thing because she was lame in the comics. Her greatest contribution to the Flash legacy is Wally West.I'm astonished by how a conversation centered around such a boring character could go for so long. Wally could be adopted, or he could be mixed. There is so much we don't know about the character because to my knowledge there has been no mention of him in the pilot.

 

[Human Torch]

Captain Cold was handled really well in the episode for what it was I thought. The idea of him as a hitman was pretty cool I thought (no pun intended). I loved his snow globe trick!

I'd really have loved to have seen that Rogues teamup in season 2 the writers talked about doing. Sad we never got to see it.

There's some other good episodes too, the one "Beat The Clock" is pretty good, and I think there's one where Flash vibrates to get drugs out of his system someone shoots him up with which was pretty awesome, but I can't remember the name of it...

That one where Flash goes to the future was one of the best as well.

That series will always go down as my favorite show,period.Packed full of awesome,beginning to end.

 

[Kevin Smith]

That one where Flash goes to the future was one of the best as well.

That series will always go down as my favorite show,period.Packed full of awesome,beginning to end.

Oh yeah, "Flash Forward" was a great one. I liked the one with Pollux, that Bizarro blue Flash clone a lot as well, I consider The Flash TV show to be probably the greatest superhero TV show ever made, followed by Incredible Hulk, the Adam West Batman TV show and Adventures of Superman for me, personally.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Any change to Iris West is a good thing because she was lame in the comics. Her greatest contribution to the Flash legacy is Wally West.I'm astonished by how a conversation centered around such a boring character could go for so long. Wally could be adopted, or he could be mixed. There is so much we don't know about the character because to my knowledge there has been no mention of him in the pilot.

I knew as soon as I wrote what I did the people who were going to argue the character was crap or poor to begin with would come out of the woodwork, but I never considered her boring or bad. Maybe it just comes down to what that character means to someone, what someone is willing to see done with it - they mean a lot to me so I'd rather not see anything like this done with them, but I could understand how changing a character who doesn't mean much of anything to someone to begin with wouldn't be seen as a big deal, why should Superman have a red cape instead of blue or a cape at all for that matter? But I digress, maybe for some of the posters who want or are okay with this stuff, maybe that's how they feel towards everything - who knows. It just seems to me that if someone is okay with changing all this stuff that was good, or certainly not bad about a character to begin with that maybe that character just doesn't mean as much to them as it does others - how could it not be looked at as this way?

The whole reason we got Superman: The Movie is because Superman met more to Richard Donner than he did the people who wrote the original copy Batman TV show like script before he came on - all of this stuff carries weight, IMO.

 

[Savage]

I knew as soon as I wrote what I did the people who were going to argue the character was crap or poor to begin with would come out of the woodwork, but I never considered her boring or bad. Maybe it just comes down to what that character means to someone, what someone is willing to see done with it - they mean a lot to me so I'd rather not see anything like this done with them, but I could understand how changing a character who doesn't mean much of anything to someone to begin with wouldn't be seen as a big deal, why should Superman have a red cape instead of blue or a cape at all for that matter? But I digress, maybe for some of the posters who want or are okay with this stuff, maybe that's how they feel towards everything - who knows. It just seems to me that if someone is okay with changing all this stuff that was good, or certainly not bad about a character to begin with that maybe that character just doesn't mean as much to them as it does others - how could it not be looked at as this way?

The whole reason we got Superman: The Movie is because Superman met more to Richard Donner than he did the people who wrote the original copy Batman TV show like script before he came on - all of this stuff carries weight, IMO.

This one is simple. People appreciate different aspects of these characters. Some more than others. For me, personally, a character can look like they walked right out of the comic but if the characterization is not there, the entire reason that I liked the character to begin with, then it just feels hollow. As opposed to vice versa where the appearance really does not factor as much as enjoying the character for the same reasons I did before.

Tyler Mane looked like Sabretooth but Liev Shreiber had the role down and was one of the few good things about X-men Origins: Wolverine. It would have been nice if they could meld the two a lot better but at the end of the day appearance is just not nearly as important to me. It's just frosting. It's much like adapting characters from a novel. Everyone imagines something different but what is important and undisputable is the character.

 

[HighFivingMF]

This is still going on?

Soooo... Anyone got speculation about the characters we know (at least are pretty sure) will show up so far?

How do you think Trickster will be portrayed?

 

[Kevin Smith]

Yeah KS I get where you're coming from, I'm not trying to impose my views on you or anything, just throwing them out there. They can change the color of Supes cape I don't see how that matters other than "it's not the way it is in the comics." But again, that's just how I see it.

That's because what Superman is, or how he looks at the very least, mean less to you than they do to me.

While these things like Iris are adaptations from the comics i think you need to understand that they're new adaptations of these things, even if they were done right in the comics they can still be changed in a different medium.

You're just repackaging DrCosmic's argument with lot of this, and they're reinventions practically if they bare little to no resemblance to the source material, that is not an adaptation to me.

That doesn't make then wrong it only makes them something that you personally wouldn't like to see.

When the source material is good to begin with, it does make it bad to do this, so yes, it is wrong to me.

Who's to say this Iris West won't be better than however the comics version has been written? (I know if its not broke dont fix it, but an adaptation that differs doesn't mean a bad thing necessarily)

Me. And in this case, I think that it differs very much is a bad thing, given what we know so far especially.

You seem to be so against anything being changed that it instantly ruins any enjoyment you could have from that product.

Only against things that were good being changed, not anything in general it change in general, far from it. And yes it does ruin or lessen my enjoyment of the final product a lot when it's not as good as what it was to begin with.

That's such a sour way to go about it lol, I mean wouldn't a fan of Flash want to see him no matter how different he is?

No. Sometimes it's too much and the characters are nothing like their comics counterparts to the point they're unrecognizable. Why would I
want to see that? Why would I want to sell out like that out of mere desperation?

I'm sure he hasn't been portrayed the same way everytime he's shown or reshown in the comics so what's so wrong about another adaptation in a different medium?

DrCosmic's argument repackaged again, just because there is a new artist or writer year to year does not mean the character himself has changed or is different, they're just telling new stories with the same character, in fact they have to and that's all they do - it's making history for that character, the status quo, the template, the core, the foundation, that stuff is still ALWAYS there; they are not changing his race, costume, powers, sexual orientation, or other things that were not bad or holding the character back to begin with, what you're trying to say happens in the source material on a monthly basis simply does not occur, it is not the same at all, so this point, this comparison, this whatever - it's moot.

Just because you like one certain adaptation of him the most doesn't make the rest of his adaptions wrong. If x story/portrayal of his is your favorite, that doesn't mean his new 52 version or 90s TV version, or Injustice Gods Among Us version, or his upcoming Tv show version, or any version that isn't version X is wrong, it simply means that you don't like it, but millions of other people do or might if exposed to it, maybe even much more than that adaptation you or most consider perfect.

When any of them make changes to that which was good to begin with that are anything less than the better , less than what they were , then they are always wrong. It's very simple.

I'm not trying to change your views and opinions so sorry if its at all coming off that way, I'm just trying to be more logical about it I guess.

I don't see anything logical about it, or more logical at the very least, at all.

I think you'd find more comfort in being open to these or any changes rather than denouncing them from the get go. But that's just me and I don't want to tell you or anyone what to do/think. I have no real dog in any topics in the SHh that I involve myself in. I try to take all these things at face value after I actually see them done.

Unfortunately none of this is comforting to me, I take no solace in the great characters that I love being distorted and misrepresented as less than what they are in any medium, period. If they are not improvements then they are bad to me, and most of them are not improvements, especially when the source material is very good go begin with.

But then again you said none of this stuff really matters to you or is that important, but it means a lot to me and they are very important to me, so naturally I take a lot of this much less lighter than you do.

 

[Rorschach2012]

This is still going on?

Soooo... Anyone got speculation about the characters we know (at least are pretty sure) will show up so far?

How do you think Trickster will be portrayed?

Well we know he'll be a serial murderer that's killed at least 12 people. I'm guessing he's a serial killer with some kind of joke element to his murders.

Hopefully they retain some elements of his classic appearance, but some elements of his costume should be changed, Trickster can look really goofy.

 

[jasontodd]

Isn't that the point of the trickster to look really goofy? If he's taken seriously than isn't he just the joker?

 

[Nathan]

If this Trickster isn't cheesy, then I don't want him.

 

[Lord Valumart]

The Rogues are cheesey. Trickster is a different level of wonderfully silly.

 

[Human Torch]

If this Trickster isn't cheesy, then I don't want him.

QFT


That's what I loved about the Mark Hamill version.He was just so unapologetically loony.

I won't hold my breath,though.