Arrow The Barry Allen/The Flash Thread - Part 1

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I can get behind toning down most of his rogues gallery, but Trickster is the one villain that works absolutely best when cheesy. You make him serious, you're losing the whole point of the character.
 
I don't like the trickster as a serial killer i like him as a villain who can't be taken serious half the time.
 
I don't like the trickster as a serial killer i like him as a villain who can't be taken serious half the time.

Then he's not even a formidable opponent. I'm all for tweaking the character to make him more of a threat. I liked the way he was in the original Flash show
 
The only time it is ever NOT "necessary" to do a faithful adaptation of something is if the source material is BAD to begin with (or dead in some cases, which I guess goes back to it qualifying as bad), which in most of the cases we're talking about, it's most certainly not, and there isn't anything wrong with the way Wally West and CO are, in fact, they're quite perfect the way they are in many ways. And how does making Wally black make him appeal to a wider audience? As if a black person couldn't identify with Wally the way he is because he is white, or can NOT identify with a character because the character's skin doesn't match their own - that right there is absolute horsecrap, when people of all ages and ethnicities have identified with the likes of Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, etc, without physically looking like them, for decades. I identified with Static growing up even though I wasn't black. If making Wally (or Iris) black makes him appealing to black people, does he suddenly become not appealing to white people? Can you only appeal to one group at a time? Because if that is not the case, then Wally is already appealing enough to all audiences the way he is, and a change, black, red, whatever, will not "improve" this. There's just no reason for the change(s), period, other than just for the hell of it.

Rorschach suggested the idea of reaching a wider audience, you can ask him his theory. Your theory is one possibility, or maybe it reaches a wider audience cuz it makes Barry look like someone who is cool with lots of black people. Or makes the show look like it's cosmopolitan overall. Or panders to fans of Scandal or Sleepy Hollow. I just don't know, man, I'm not a mind reader, are you? There's lots of reasons, if you don't like them fine, but trying to say no one can have any other motivation than the one you would come up with is extremely myopic.
 
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I also prefer Trickster in the vein of a darkly humorous because he's so lamely funny but so utterly deadly. He's kinda like a less self-aware Joker to me, in that way.
 
I don't like the trickster as a serial killer i like him as a villain who can't be taken serious half the time.

That works for a cartoon. This, not so much.
 
At this point, I am really concerned with the characterization they're giving Iris.

I'm really not a fan of the whole "she's my childhood friend who I have a crush on but I can't confess to her and she doesn't know she likes me yet" idea. It is incredibly cliche and redundant. I have seen it play out over and over and over again in so many stories across many different mediums. Heck, we just saw it in Arrow with Oliver and Laurel, which also featured the cop dad being the protagonist's love interest's father. The only thing that would make it more cliche now is bringing in a third (male) childhood friend to create tension and a love triangle down the road.

I much prefer the original approach of Barry and Iris first meeting either at the beginning of the series or shortly before the series starts. I would enjoy that take much more. I find it more optimistic and more "classic heroic" in a way - the idea that the nerdy socially awkward hero can get the girl because she sees him for who he is. Not that you can't play with that idea if they're childhood friends, but she would already know a lot more about who Barry is as a person that the theme wouldn't be as strong. Even if Barry only "gets Iris" as a friend (at least in the beginning), that would still be better.

The "childhood friend" approach will also make Barry's love life a lot more predictable, because it just spells out "SHE IS HIS TRUE LOVE EVEN THOUGH SHE DOESN'T KNOW IT YET" to the audience. Again, we've seen that in Arrow (and still do to an extent) and we really don't need it here IMO.

The best way to do the whole "Iris = Barry's true love" thing is to downplay it at first. and it can be much more easily downplayed if they weren't childhood friends. The lack of the "childhood friend" approach would also add some realism to the show. In real life, you can't pinpoint your true love out that easily nor do you know how long the relationship will last. You don't know if you will only date "girl A" for a few years until something happens that breaks you up, if she will be thrown off a bridge by the Green Goblin or if you will really marry her and live happily ever after. You never know what the future brings. Sure that you can do the same thing even if they are childhood friends and later kill off Iris or make her and Barry permanently break up and bringing someone else in, but I don't see them doing that to Flash's most iconic love interest.
 
I do agree it's a little redundant with Arrow, especially with the Cop dad thing. I also think they're channeling more than a small amount of Amazing Spider-Man in there too. Haven't seen it often enough other places to call it cliche though. I can't think of a RomCom like that, off the top of my head at least. Hopefully they'll do something different with it, and by hopefully, I mean, they'd better.

Personally, I'd give it a very slow burn, and really convince the audience that these two people are actually truly friends. Give Barry other prominent love interests, like, really good ones. Bring Felicity to Central City, y'know? Patty Spivot as the girl who knows Barry is the Flash is even cooler. If she has Felicity levels of cuteness, people may forget all about Iris, or at least you'll have a suitable Team Iris/Team Patty conflict. Put Iris on a bus for a season. Let Barry give up on Iris, so to speak, or be happy the way things are. It can be done well.
 
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Wally was fine the way he was. That's the main point. No change was necessary.

I'm just glad we could be getting a live action Wally in general. Would I prefer for him to have his signature red hair? Yes. But I'm already over it, and I'm just hoping that his costume and characterization are on point since the creators clearly don't care about maintaining his usual appearance out of costume.


I can't believe they've done this! As a ginger person, I've been waiting years and years for a ginger superhero on TV so that I have someone that I can really identify with...

and when they finally do get one of the few real ginger heroes on TV, they change him so he's not ginger anymore!! DAMN GINGERISTS!! I can't believe they could treat a minority like this! Gingers are people too you know!


Luckily we still have the Red Arrow.. oh wait, he's not ginger anymore either! Lana Lang didn't end up particularly ginger in Smallville either. (ok, in all seriousness there really does seem to be an anti-ginger agenda)
 
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I didn't like him, but he's proof that the producers aren't afraid to introduce wacky, over-the-top characters.
 
Arrow's Count Vertigo wasn't a bad villain if you don't know anything about Count Vertigo. If you do, then you realize the waste of potential. :csad:
 
I thought he was pretty bad, and I don't know anything about the comic character.

The over-the-top acting (faux-british mustache twirling villain voice) just felt like a cartoon. (and not in a good way, like Zod)
 
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Yep. He was a bad villain who was bad because he was bad. The differences between him and his comic book counterpart don't even matter.
 
This one is simple. People appreciate different aspects of these characters. Some more than others. For me, personally, a character can look like they walked right out of the comic but if the characterization is not there, the entire reason that I liked the character to begin with, then it just feels hollow. As opposed to vice versa where the appearance really does not factor as much as enjoying the character for the same reasons I did before.

Tyler Mane looked like Sabretooth but Liev Shreiber had the role down and was one of the few good things about X-men Origins: Wolverine. It would have been nice if they could meld the two a lot better but at the end of the day appearance is just not nearly as important to me. It's just frosting. It's much like adapting characters from a novel. Everyone imagines something different but what is important and undisputable is the character.

I have to agree, all that stuff is important to me, too, I wouldn't want a perfect look but bad characterization, but I also don't want a terrible look with good characterization - I don't see why it has to be one or the other, you know, is it really that much to ask for both without having one at the expense of the other? I don't really think it's something unreasonable or undoable, personally...
 
Rorschach suggested the idea of reaching a wider audience, you can ask him his theory. Your theory is one possibility, or maybe it reaches a wider audience cuz it makes Barry look like someone who is cool with lots of black people. Or makes the show look like it's cosmopolitan overall. Or panders to fans of Scandal or Sleepy Hollow. I just don't know, man, I'm not a mind reader, are you? There's lots of reasons, if you don't like them fine, but trying to say no one can have any other motivation than the one you would come up with is extremely myopic.

Well I do agree that I have absolutely no idea WHAT they are really thinking that makes them change some of the things they want to change, but I don't think that my insinuation is an entirely far fetched thought much of the time for a lot of this stuff, but I digress, I really do have no idea what they are thinking, I actually agree with you there.
 
At this point, I am really concerned with the characterization they're giving Iris.

I'm really not a fan of the whole "she's my childhood friend who I have a crush on but I can't confess to her and she doesn't know she likes me yet" idea. It is incredibly cliche and redundant. I have seen it play out over and over and over again in so many stories across many different mediums. Heck, we just saw it in Arrow with Oliver and Laurel, which also featured the cop dad being the protagonist's love interest's father. The only thing that would make it more cliche now is bringing in a third (male) childhood friend to create tension and a love triangle down the road.

I much prefer the original approach of Barry and Iris first meeting either at the beginning of the series or shortly before the series starts. I would enjoy that take much more. I find it more optimistic and more "classic heroic" in a way - the idea that the nerdy socially awkward hero can get the girl because she sees him for who he is. Not that you can't play with that idea if they're childhood friends, but she would already know a lot more about who Barry is as a person that the theme wouldn't be as strong. Even if Barry only "gets Iris" as a friend (at least in the beginning), that would still be better.

The "childhood friend" approach will also make Barry's love life a lot more predictable, because it just spells out "SHE IS HIS TRUE LOVE EVEN THOUGH SHE DOESN'T KNOW IT YET" to the audience. Again, we've seen that in Arrow (and still do to an extent) and we really don't need it here IMO.

The best way to do the whole "Iris = Barry's true love" thing is to downplay it at first. and it can be much more easily downplayed if they weren't childhood friends. The lack of the "childhood friend" approach would also add some realism to the show. In real life, you can't pinpoint your true love out that easily nor do you know how long the relationship will last. You don't know if you will only date "girl A" for a few years until something happens that breaks you up, if she will be thrown off a bridge by the Green Goblin or if you will really marry her and live happily ever after. You never know what the future brings. Sure that you can do the same thing even if they are childhood friends and later kill off Iris or make her and Barry permanently break up and bringing someone else in, but I don't see them doing that to Flash's most iconic love interest.

I agree with much of what was said, I hate the characterization they've given her from what I have seen/heard of it so far as well. I do wonder though if this is the writer's idea(s) or some rule from the top that says the tv show HAS to feature these things, and the writers are just doing the best they can with it....like when Bruce Banner was changed to David Banner on the Incredible Hulk tv show, producers thought "Bruce" sounded too feminine or gay for whatever reason back then....which is weird to me.
 
We know The Flash will have a costume (how good it is or not is yet to be revealed), but I wonder if the Rogues will show up in their costumes respectively, or at least bare any visual similarities to their comic counterparts this time...

Also betting they make Reverse Flash look like The Black Flash, with his red and black "evil" lightning looking suit if they use him in it (if he shows up in uniform at mean at least...)
 
I thought the Rogues had a code that they don't kill. By that logic, shouldn't none of those villains be serial killers?

Also, I desperately want to see a scene like this:[YT]watch?v=iSQ-h_2WGkw[/YT]
 
Well, that Trickster was running around with an acid gun, and he's mentally unstable. I wouldn't be surprised if he had killed. But I don't want him to be a serial killer with an MO. But I really hope they don't turn the rest into killers. At least have them try to avoid casualties, as they are only in it for the money, and don't plan to have any kills on their conscience.
 
They better not kill the Rogues with reckless abandon the way they do in Arrow.:argh:
 
I think they should take Trickster in a different direction. Having Trickster characterized the same as the 90's version is outdated and lazy. Also it was like a poor man's version of the Jack Nicholson's Joker. Don't get me wrong, it was perfect for the show, but I wouldn't want to see that character again after TDK, MOS and Arrow. No more of that silliness. Please!

My idea for Trickster would be a sort of evil version of James Bond. With all his high tech gadgets doing all sorts of evil things. Kidnapping, assassinations, blackmail etc. Using tech to counter the Flash's speed.

Just update everything. Even if their powers are fantastic, just give it a semi-plausible explanation (Speed Force anyone?)
 
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