Arrow The Barry Allen/The Flash Thread - Part 2

[HighFivingMF]

Yes, the one-dimensional psycho ***** femme fatale was so much more "interesting" than the multi-layered, morally complicated, three-dimensional character that she was pre-Morrison, not. Morrison ruined her like he ruined Magneto.

One-dimensional? The ****?

 

[Charlie Boy]

While I agree with most of those, you need to take a couple off the list.
-Oliver has murdered people in the comics, on several different occasions.
-Oliver had been dark and brooding in the comics as well, on several different occasions.

I'm aware he's murdered people. I'm saying he didn't leave the gates dropping bodies like a man possessed. I've only read a small number of GA books... The one time I remember him murdering anyone, was Prometheus, in Cry For Justice.

Again, I know... A few of those entries on the list are just there to highlight how different the basic comic persona is from the one we have on Arrow. He's dark and brooding at times, yes, but that's certainly not what he's known for in the comics, so a point gets deducted.

Alot of things I put on the list I dont even have a problem with, they were included to highlight just how asanine Human Torch's list is.

 

[Boy Scout]

I agree.It's like taking away a point for every change.

That's ridiculous. You have no idea how any of those changes will affect the story going forward and are just assuming it'll be terrible because it's different from what you're used to.

The new Iris is at best 6/10 in the purist test.At what point are we allowed to say she has little in common with the original character?

When you see some footage?

 

[batdude]

I don't know. the main difference that Iris had from Lois Lane in the comics was that she got married to Barry. They may feel that having Linda Park in this, they don't need two reporters. And obviously Barry is going to stay single for a while. Give it a chance. They may "Smallville" Iris and change her later.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I agree.It's like taking away a point for every change.
Iris is now:
A psychologist -1
Foster/Step sister to Barry-1
Has a detective daddy (cougharrowcough) -1
Black (Yeah,call it superficial,it's still a change)-1

The new Iris is at best 6/10 in the purist test.At what point are we allowed to say she has little in common with the original character?

That's exactly the way I see it, Torchie. Especially for every unnecessary change made. Well said.

 

[Kevin Smith]

editing to keep things more concise:



I did think about Bang Babies, and yeah, that makes the most sense. Like Smallville's Kryptonite, there's always filtered phlebotinum so characters can have a unique-ish origin story and not all be 'woke up with powers on the same day.' That actually could be weird.

Speaking of Spidey, the newest incarnation of Spider-Man has all the villain powers coming out of Oscorps animal-human-fusion-thingy project. It's tidy. Smart. Superman's foes are all over the place, and as a result, he has one of the weaker rogues galleries of the A-list heroes. He's not someone you want to pattern after when it comes to bad guys.

I like that all the villains don't come from the same place and each have their own unique backstory, like Batman's. Batman's don't all come about the same way. I think it shows lack of creativity to have them all show up from the same place, and gets boring. Like is this the only source for villains? Kind of lame, IMO, what you think is "tidy" (wtf?) I think is uncreative. That said I mentioned Superman's villains because they are powered or have some super powered means of taking down The Flash usually... so that is the way I was comparing The Flash's rogues to Superman's at first. They should be like Batman's in terms of stories and characterizations, but with power levels closer to Superman's or Spider-Man's villains.

You guys are crazy superficial. What's really crazy is that you're totally superficial, and don't give one consideration for the nature of the character, only the visuals and then call yourselves proponents of "The real." You have zero information about if these people will capture the nature of the characters, Hank Pym included. All you know is they won't capture the visuals.

But if someone captures the visuals, but the nature of the character is completely different, to these "real character" types, that's "The real character." Totally superficial.

Visuals, story, personality, character traits, characterizations.... it all adds up and is what makes them up as characters. Yeah, I'm not cool with changing any of the stuff that works and is great the way it is. A superficial person to me is someone who goes along with whatever the powers that be want to do and swallow whatever comes down from up top and has no real stake in any of the characters except what X person in charge wants to do with them.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Yeah.That's what keeps Arrow from scoring higher in the "greatest SH show ever" category for me.I think Arrow has taken a big step this season to find,at least, a balance.But there have been a few note worthy eye rollers still.

If you don't think Flash will have at least as many "growing pains" during the first season,you're kidding yourself.

Exactly. And I agree that Arrow has gotten progressively better and I'm happy for that but you're absolutely right with everything you said. Quickly becoming one of my favorite posters around these parts.

 

[DrCosmic]

I agree.It's like taking away a point for every change.
Iris is now:
A psychologist -1
Foster/Step sister to Barry-1
Has a detective daddy (cougharrowcough) -1
Black (Yeah,call it superficial,it's still a change)-1

The new Iris is at best 6/10 in the purist test.At what point are we allowed to say she has little in common with the original character?

When you get to know her. Is the nature or spirit of the character intact? If I change jobs, or adopt a brother, or my dad changes jobs, does that make me 30% different than I used to be? If I meet my future wife when I'm 5 vs meeting her when I'm 25, does it make me a different person in any way at all?

And if the nature of the character isn't the same, like Ollie isn't the same, is this an improvement that makes the story better as you watch it unfold? Or is it something that makes the story less interesting to keep a pet idea around that doesn't work well with the format, direction and target audience.

And where does 6/10 come from? You only know 10 things about Iris West? For shame. Let me bring you up to speed.

Iris West from the comics:

1. Female
2. White
3. Red hair
4. Brown Hair
5. Brown Eyes
6. Traditionally Attractive
7. Young Adult
8. Reporter
9. Career is basically her talking about the Flash and his villains a lot
10. Dates Barry Allen
11. Doesn't Date Barry Allen
12. Cares Deeply for Barry and unconditionally supports him
13. Doesn't Know Barry is the Flash at first
14. Figures out Barry is the Flash on her own
15. Highly Driven in her Career,
16. Goal Oriented Risk Taker
17. Highly Intelligent
18. Assertive Outspoken Communication Style
19. Great with People
20. No aversion to getting her hands dirty
21. Can be flirtatious
22. Gift Giving appears to be her love language
23. Consistently sacrifices to take care of her family
24. Loves to take care of other people's kids
25. Drinks a lot of Coffee
26. Lives in Central City
27. Is From the Future
28. • Adoptive Father, Ira West, is a Physics Professor
    • Adoptive Mother, Nadine West, is unremarkable
    • Adoptive Siblings are Rudy and Charolette West
    • Biological Parents are in the Future, the Russels
    • Nephew Named Wally
29. Is Not From the Future
30. • William West, unnamed profession (same as Sgt. Rock character???)
    • Unnamed Mother is deceased
    • Younger brother named Daniel, a criminal
    • Probably still a nephew named Wally West

By my count, the only things we can be sure are different from the comics is that she's not a white reporter who meets Barry on her job. And of course, stuff that's different for every continuity like who her family is and what they do and her relationship with Barry. So she may indeed be something like 21/24, and that idea is supported by the brief casting tape we did see, but we really won't know until we actually see the show. Crazy, I know. 21/24 is as good as the current Iris West in the comics, all things considered. Not a bad number, not bad at all.

Yet they've changed a myriad of things with Oliver Queen, by your logic, we should take away a point for every change they've made for him.

Oliver now:

Has a sister -1
A mother who is still alive -1
Childhood friends with Merlyn, The Dark Archer's son -1
Trained by Deathstroke -1
Murders people -1
Has a nerdy, tech-geek who operates as his Oracle or Chloe Sullivan -1
Has a "body guard" -1
Is dark and brooding instead of his trademark activist-humanitarian type personality -1
Doesn't have his trademark blonde hair or vandyke beard (Yeah, call it superficial, it's still a change) -2

Oliver Queen is at best -0/10 in your purist test.

Arrow is being heralded as one of the best television shows based on a comic book character. So why not have a little faith in the producers?

That's ridiculous. You have no idea how any of those changes will affect the story going forward and are just assuming it'll be terrible because it's different from what you're used to.

I'm getting the idea they think 'not what they're used to/expect = terrible.' It seems like a high quality show with an engaging story and great acting that deepens and broadens and modernizes the Flash mythos in ways they would not is terrible, no matter how good it actually is.

 

[Orb]

Also just because Iris is a psychology student now doesn't mean she cant take interest in journalism later.

 

[DrCosmic]

I like that all the villains don't come from the same place and each have their own unique backstory, like Batman's. Batman's don't all come about the same way. I think it shows lack of creativity to have them all show up from the same place, and gets boring. Like is this the only source for villains? Kind of lame, IMO, what you think is "tidy" (wtf?) I think is uncreative. That said I mentioned Superman's villains because they are powered or have some super powered means of taking down The Flash usually... so that is the way I was comparing The Flash's rogues to Superman's at first. They should be like Batman's in terms of stories and characterizations, but with power levels closer to Superman's or Spider-Man's villains.

No more 'uncreative' than mutancy as an origin, or having all the villains be insane in Batman's case. It keeps things together. It never gets boring. Having their own backstory doesn't change. How they got in contact with this tech and who they were before that still needs to be explored in each case. When you do it another way, and you constantly have a new macguffin for every villain every week, you have to get rid of it and explain why this person is the only person who will ever have/use this technology. Or you have to make every villain, regardless of their skills or temperament an inventor/technician/engineer to explain why they alone have created this device. It's messy, you have a lot of things to clean up. It's not tidy. It's unnatural for 20 pieces of society-redefining technology to appear within a year and have no major effect on society. That's bad writing.

If you have one overarching scientist and an incredible device, it allows you to go deeply into one origin, as Batman does with Insanity or X-Men does with mutancy, as opposed to running all over the place with rough loose ends like Superman does or Flash sometimes did before New 52. So all you have to do is deal with the villain's origins/motivations and how they got the technology. It's cleaner. Simpler. You can focus on the story without having to waste time on technobabble and designing new devices and all this other superficial stuff that doesn't actually make the story any better/deeper/more interesting.

And again, this is not 'all the bad guys.' Just most of the super powered ones.

Visuals, story, personality, character traits, characterizations.... it all adds up and is what makes them up as characters. Yeah, I'm not cool with changing any of the stuff that works and is great the way it is. A superficial person to me is someone who goes along with whatever the powers that be want to do and swallow whatever comes down from up top and has no real stake in any of the characters except what X person in charge wants to do with them.

That's mighty judgmental. I'm simply more interested in the characterization and the story than visuals. So, while I may notice visuals, I don't go on for pages of forums about them and use them to conclude that they are not the "real" character, much less that anyone who disagrees doesn't care about the character. That's why I say you're superficial, because you only mention anything other than visuals when someone points out how only care about visuals. You imply that the entire character is inauthentic because the visuals aren't what you expect.

Take for instance the job part. You see it is an unnecessary change. I live in a world where reporters do not show up for crimes in progress, or do anything at crime scenes other than stand far away and get rebuffed by beat cops. To me, if Iris is to be a part of the Flash's life, it is necessary for her to have a career change. It doesn't work as is. For you, the reporter works, because you are much more concerned with the world the comics has built than trying to fit Barry's story into the real world, you consider any such fitting unnecessary, regardless of how appreciated it may be by non comics fans, or how much precedent Arrow set in doing so.

This is on top of the fact that just because something works doesn't mean it can't be improved. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" is a great thing to say to get others to leave your stuff alone, but unless you know a lot about how something works, you really can't certify whether it's broken or not. If you do know a lot about how something works, missed opportunities for growth and deepening are your loss, even though they come with risks.

 

[DrCosmic]

Also just because Iris is a psychology student now doesn't mean she cant take interest in journalism later.

To me, psychology allows her to get deeper into Barry's life and the crimes that he deals with than being a reporter would ever hope to. As a reporter, she's a distant observer who reads a teleprompter on air. As a psychologist, she can create profiles and actually contribute to what's going on. The story of Captain Cold told in a research paper is much more interesting than the story of Captain Cold told on the 5 O'Clock news, and much more useful to the Flash to boot. It's a brilliant update to her role as The Flash's storyteller. The fact that it further delineates her from Lois Lane is just a bonus.

 

[Human Torch]

Yet they've changed a myriad of things with Oliver Queen, by your logic, we should take away a point for every change they've made for him.

Oliver now:

Has a sister -1
A mother who is still alive -1
Childhood friends with Merlyn, The Dark Archer's son -1
Trained by Deathstroke -1
Murders people -1
Has a nerdy, tech-geek who operates as his Oracle or Chloe Sullivan -1
Has a "body guard" -1
Is dark and brooding instead of his trademark activist-humanitarian type personality -1
Doesn't have his trademark blonde hair or vandyke beard (Yeah, call it superficial, it's still a change) -2

Oliver Queen is at best -0/10 in your purist test.

Arrow is being heralded as one of the best television shows based on a comic book character. So why not have a little faith in the producers?

Ollie is blonde though it's only noticeable in the flashbacks.

All well and good.Point taken.But lets be honest,the things in Arrow are additions/subject to change.The only thing that can change for Iris is that she can drop one profession for another.The other things are set in stone.

 

[DrCosmic]

Having a sister can change? Being childhood friends with Tommy can change? Being trained by Deathstroke can change?

And what "other things" are there for Iris? I can only think of one.

 

[Human Torch]

Being trained by Deathstroke is the same as Bruce being trained by Ra's.It's adding something,not really needed,I guess,but it's not really contradictory to the character.

His Mother/Sister can (and probably will be killed) at some point.

Look,I stood out of the thread during casting because I didn't want to argue the questionable choices they made for the characters.You can't expect those of us with purest leanings to be excited about some of the things we've heard.If you like what you heard,that's great.

 

[Boy Scout]

No one is saying you have to be excited. What we're commenting on are all your declarations that the character will suck because of all the changes before you've seen them play out. They're rather presumptuous.

 

[DrCosmic]

If you kill off his sister, then he just has a dead sister. He doesn't become an only child.

And I think we have a different understanding of necessary changes. For Batman Begins, Bruce needed a deep connection with the villain so that he could forge a different path. That pretty much meant Ra's needed to be the one to train him. With just the comics origin, where there is no importance placed on his training other than that it worked incredibly well, Batman Begins, as a story, sucks. It was a necessary change for the story they were telling.

Regardless, it was definitely contradictory to the character. Batman and Green Arrow were trained by specific comics characters, and certainly not famous supervillains. That's a contradiction to who the character is and how they see themselves and what their resources are/were.

If you don't want to argue the questionable choices... then... don't.

I don't expect you to be excited. But when you say 'questionable' and 'unnecessary' you're attempting to make points beyond "I don't like it cuz it's different." And those points can be refuted.

Here's what I suspect would be an honest post:

I've been a Flash fan for 25 years. I remember reading the silver age comic giddily as a child, and I've spent my whole life looking forward to seeing Flash done justice on film. I loved the JWS series and the costume and the heroic persona they tried to capture. I've been watching Arrow, and while I was skittish at first about it, they've slowly been giving him his comic book costume and persona and there's promise there of seeing what I consider the real Green Arrow on screen.

I don't feel that way about Flash. When I hear that they are deliberately changing things, it makes me feel as though they don't care about the characters. I can't prove that, of course, but that's how I feel. If they cared about the characters the way I do, they would keep all the trappings of the comics, and not change anything except the dialogue and clothing from the comics. Except the costume. Anything different from the classic comic book costume would be a grievous offense to my favorite part about the Flash character.

I've spent years dreaming of seeing this brought to life. To see it brought to life in a way other than how I would do it, with emphasis on things other than what I care about is deeply troubling. I feel personally offended that they would do this to a character I've invested so much emotion in, and it's hard for me to believe someone could care about the character and not agree with me 100%. Comics are a visual medium, the visuals are naturally what excite me about the character. If you change the visuals, you take from me the things that make me excited about the character. Does anyone see it differently?

I really don't understand this. If you cared about Flash, how could you possibly be okay with his white girlfriend now being black? If you actually like the Flash, how could you give him any costume but a solid field of red with big yellow boots, exposed eyes lighting bolts ornaments over the earpieces? I consider Flash, as he is in the comics, completely perfect.

So I guess what I'm asking... how can you like the Flash and not consider what he was in the comics completely perfect? How could you want anything other than an exact duplication of the comics, minus the things I want changed, like time period updates to clothes and dialogue? Any change beyond what I personally need, after all, is unnecessary.

I'm sure Iris will still be a nice girl, but she'll never be my Iris, because my Iris is white, end of story, superficial as it may be.

It's a bit of a strawman towards the end, but you get the idea. Is that close? Is that how you actually feel if we throw away this "real Flash" and other trumpable arguments?

 

[Human Torch]

If you kill off his sister, then he just has a dead sister. He doesn't become an only child.

It's still a far cry from having he and his (step) sister being a love interest.

If you don't want to argue the questionable choices... then... don't.

I'm...not....

I don't expect you to be excited. But when you say 'questionable' and 'unnecessary' you're attempting to make points beyond "I don't like it cuz it's different." And those points can be refuted.

I'm only trying to avoid the tired old strawman "you don't like racial recasts" arguments we've had ad nauseum.

 

[DrCosmic]

It's still a far cry from having he and his (step) sister being a love interest.

I'm...not....

You'r making an argument and then saying you're not making an argument.

Also, have them stop being step brother and sister. That solves that problem, by this logic. Also, the whole thing where they're not step brother and sister at all (unless Iris' Mom marries Barry's dad!) The casting sheet describes them as best friends. Do you know the show better than the show makers do? Will you accept that they are not brother and sister?

 

[Kevin Smith]

No more 'uncreative' than mutancy as an origin,

Which works for the X-Men because they're mutants....so it would make sense there'd be evil ones.

or having all the villains be insane in Batman's case.

Aren't all villains insane? At varying degrees, more or less?

It keeps things together. It never gets boring. Having their own backstory doesn't change.

It does get boring, they all come from one place, there's no mystery to it if they all get their powers from the same source, not to mention lazy writing. Cool for Static and X-Men because of their origins and the context of their stories, not for Flash, batman, Spider-Man, etc.

How they got in contact with this tech and who they were before that still needs to be explored in each case. When you do it another way, and you constantly have a new macguffin for every villain every week, you have to get rid of it and explain why this person is the only person who will ever have/use this technology.

So you have to be a little creative? What's wrong with that? In a fantastic sci fi world, there should be multiple ways for villains and powers to come about. It'd be like making Green Lantern's villains all get their powers from the same place Hal got his or have all Superman's villains be from Krypton. And say what you will about them, but I like many of Superman's rogues gallery.

Or you have to make every villain, regardless of their skills or temperament an inventor/technician/engineer to explain why they alone have created this device.

No you don't. They can always steal it or get powers in some way too....I really don't see what the problem is.

It's messy, you have a lot of things to clean up. It's not tidy.

Dude....get over it. You can be creative enough for it all to work fine (well maybe you can't, but the possibility exists for it to not be anyway near as banal as you're projecting).

It's unnatural for 20 pieces of society-redefining technology to appear within a year and have no major effect on society. That's bad writing.

Sooo....it makes sense for 20 pieces of society-redefining technology to appear within a year as long as it comes from the same place, right? This is a story about a guy who does pretty unnatural things from an unnatural lightning and chemical accident in an unnatural world....having supervillains with various backgrounds and powers fits just fine.

That's mighty judgmental.

Says the guy who calls true fans of the comics superficial.

I'm simply more interested in the characterization and the story than visuals.

I'm interested in all of the above, not bits and pieces or only 2 of the 3 while having no interest in one aspect at all. It all connects and enhances the characters and experience.

So, while I may notice visuals, I don't go on for pages of forums about them and use them to conclude that they are not the "real" character, much less that anyone who disagrees doesn't care about the character.

Like it or not, in this umm..."visual" medium known as comic books (you know, those books that use PICTURES to tell stories?), the characters' appearances have a LOT to do with who they are. If you don't get that right you're missing half of what makes them great.

That's why I say you're superficial, because you only mention anything other than visuals when someone points out how only care about visuals. You imply that the entire character is inauthentic because the visuals aren't what you expect.

On the contrary, I've been pretty against EVERYTHING they're doing with Iris West right from the start, not just her PC race change. I've said quite a bit at separate and together times how much I vehemently detest the gag worthy childhood "in love with my best friend" dynamic they're forcing upon them (that's been crammed down our throats at least since Friends - tv people want so badly to have their "Ross") along with the whole step sister bit and yes, psychologist bit.

Take for instance the job part. You see it is an unnecessary change. I live in a world where reporters do not show up for crimes in progress, or do anything at crime scenes other than stand far away and get rebuffed by beat cops. To me, if Iris is to be a part of the Flash's life, it is necessary for her to have a career change.

You're a novice who has never read a Flash comic then or willingly ignorant. Even her not showing up for a crime in progress, how would that prohibit her from interacting with Barry Allen or The Flash, exactly? She doesn't need to be right there in the action 24/7, and how, exactly, does making her a psychologist put her any further out in the battlefield, lol? Villains kidnap love interests all the time, reporter or not, who's to say Iris wouldn't be standing somewhere reporting on something peaceful and behind her a tragedy that requires The Flash's attention breaks out? For all your talk of "small mindedness", it seems like you have a lot of room for growth.

It doesn't work as is.

Lol. It does perfectly and I have over 50 years proof of this.

For you, the reporter works, because you are much more concerned with the world the comics has built than trying to fit Barry's story into the real world, you consider any such fitting unnecessary, regardless of how appreciated it may be by non comics fans, or how much precedent Arrow set in doing so.

My philosophy is if it's not broke don't fix it. You want so badly to be defensive of any creative decision ever with little regard to the characters themselves you'll accept any change....the only thing you won't accept is good comics characters remaining as is for live action. The comics are no more or less "real" than your CW dramas, and making Iris West a black psychologist step sister love interest of Barry Allen doesn't add any more "believability" to anything, not to burst your bubble. You want so badly to see the characters change to accommodate tv and/or trends when tv and trends when the influence should be the other way around. Unlike you, I believe in this medium.

This is on top of the fact that just because something works doesn't mean it can't be improved.

If you really think you can "improve" something, go ahead, I'm all for getting the best of anything, but.....there have been no improvements.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is a great thing to say to get others to leave your stuff alone, but unless you know a lot about how something works, you really can't certify whether it's broken or not. If you do know a lot about how something works, missed opportunities for growth and deepening are your loss, even though they come with risks.

Well lucky for me I know a lot about The Flash and many other characters and how they work and I can tell you resoundingly that many of them DO work perfectly the way they are and don't need "improvement" in the areas you want to see it.

 

[DrCosmic]

Which works for the X-Men because they're mutants....so it would make sense there'd be evil ones.

Aren't all villains insane? At varying degrees, more or less?

It does get boring, they all come from one place, there's no mystery to it if they all get their powers from the same source, not to mention lazy writing. Cool for Static and X-Men because of their origins and the context of their stories, not for Flash, batman, Spider-Man, etc.

So you have to be a little creative? What's wrong with that? In a fantastic sci fi world, there should be multiple ways for villains and powers to come about. It'd be like making Green Lantern's villains all get their powers from the same place Hal got his or have all Superman's villains be from Krypton. And say what you will about them, but I like many of Superman's rogues gallery.

No you don't. They can always steal it or get powers in some way too....I really don't see what the problem is.

Dude....get over it. You can be creative enough for it all to work fine (well maybe you can't, but the possibility exists for it to not be anyway near as banal as you're projecting).

Sooo....it makes sense for 20 pieces of society-redefining technology to appear within a year as long as it comes from the same place, right? This is a story about a guy who does pretty unnatural things from an unnatural lightning and chemical accident in an unnatural world....having supervillains with various backgrounds and powers fits just fine.

I say 1 macguffin, you say "Sooo....it makes sense for 20 pieces..." I talk about being creative you say 'what's wrong with being creative.' You're not responding to me. It doesn't appear that you've responded to what I've actually said, so I won't respond to what you've said here.

Says the guy who calls true fans of the comics superficial.

I'm interested in all of the above, not bits and pieces or only 2 of the 3 while having no interest in one aspect at all. It all connects and enhances the characters and experience.

Like it or not, in this umm..."visual" medium known as comic books (you know, those books that use PICTURES to tell stories?), the characters' appearances have a LOT to do with who they are. If you don't get that right you're missing half of what makes them great.

On the contrary, I've been pretty against EVERYTHING they're doing with Iris West right from the start, not just her PC race change. I've said quite a bit at separate and together times how much I vehemently detest the gag worthy childhood "in love with my best friend" dynamic they're forcing upon them (that's been crammed down our throats at least since Friends - tv people want so badly to have their "Ross") along with the whole step sister bit and yes, psychologist bit.

Here's the problem. You don't know everything they're doing with Iris. You focus on 2 or 3 things, and you feel that's everything there is to the character, even ignoring the other things we already know about her that you don't complain about. That's why you're superfical, not because you focus on the skin, but on surface details, trappings, things that don't change the story or nature of the character.

You're a novice who has never read a Flash comic then or willingly ignorant. Even her not showing up for a crime in progress, how would that prohibit her from interacting with Barry Allen or The Flash, exactly? She doesn't need to be right there in the action 24/7, and how, exactly, does making her a psychologist put her any further out in the battlefield, lol? Villains kidnap love interests all the time, reporter or not, who's to say Iris wouldn't be standing somewhere reporting on something peaceful and behind her a tragedy that requires The Flash's attention breaks out? For all your talk of "small mindedness", it seems like you have a lot of room for growth.

Lol. It does perfectly and I have over 50 years proof of this.

My philosophy is if it's not broke don't fix it. You want so badly to be defensive of any creative decision ever with little regard to the characters themselves you'll accept any change....the only thing you won't accept is good comics characters remaining as is for live action. The comics are no more or less "real" than your CW dramas, and making Iris West a black psychologist step sister love interest of Barry Allen doesn't add any more "believability" to anything, not to burst your bubble. You want so badly to see the characters change to accommodate tv and/or trends when tv and trends when the influence should be the other way around. Unlike you, I believe in this medium.

If you really think you can "improve" something, go ahead, I'm all for getting the best of anything, but.....there have been no improvements.

Well lucky for me I know a lot about The Flash and many other characters and how they work and I can tell you resoundingly that many of them DO work perfectly the way they are and don't need "improvement" in the areas you want to see it.

You don't seem to know much about how TV works differently from comics. As your assertion that the comics characters are already perfect for TV shows, which shows that you can't grow, because you are already convinced that you know everything and that anyone who disagrees with you is "want so badly to be defensive of any creative decision ever with little regard to the characters themselves you'll accept any change" whose actual comments aren't even worth responding to because you already "know what they're thinking." Because in your mind, you are the true fan, and anyone who disagrees must be motivated by something other than how much they like the Flash, so you don't have to respond to their reasons, you can just call them names and say "The comics" because the comics are perfect. You're immune to listening, much less learning.

I am closed minded to things that don't make sense. And now, that includes having a discussion with you. Good day, sir.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I say 1 macguffin, you say "Sooo....it makes sense for 20 pieces..."

You just took what I said out of context and twisted it for the purpose of this post...but go on...

I talk about being creative, you say 'what's wrong with being creative.'

You said have all the villains come from one place, I said have them come from all over.

You're not responding to me. It doesn't appear that you've responded to what I've actually said, so I won't respond to what you've said here.

Well my entire response to you is there, as documented, but that's a pretty childish attitude to take "I won't respond to you because you won't respond to me", fine by me, either way though, you're just going to keep doing back flips to defend unnecessary changes because you dislike the source material.

Here's the problem. You don't know everything they're doing with Iris.

Al I know is what they've said they're doing and that's all I've commented on.

You focus on 2 or 3 things, and you feel that's everything there is to the character, even ignoring the other things we already know about her that you don't complain about.

Like what? What else do we know about her that contradicts who she is in the comics that I have "not complained" about? That she's a woman and her name is Iris? Why would I have a problem with that? There's not much else they've released about her other than the fact that she's Barry's best friend he's secretly in love with who will also be his step sister who is black and a psychologist (an aspiring one, sorry ). I've given my opinion on exactly what they've given me to give an opinion on...and my opinion is that it sucks. What they want to do with this Iris sucks. And not because it's "different", but because it's bad, unnecessary different, because it sucks. There's a difference, see?

That's why you're superfical, not because you focus on the skin, but on surface details, trappings, things that don't change the story or nature of the character.

There's not really much else left to change about her other than her name and sex, it's much farther than just how she looks, I don't see how you're not getting this....

You don't seem to know much about how TV works differently from comics.

Black psychologist step sister best friend who Barry is secretly in love with makes The Flash no more adaptable than he was before.

As your assertion that the comics characters are already perfect for TV shows, which shows that you can't grow,

Not when something's already perfect the way it is. If it ever stops being perfect, then go ahead.

because you are already convinced that you know everything

I don't know everything, only what they have told us so far.

and that anyone who disagrees with you is "want so badly to be defensive of any creative decision ever with little regard to the characters themselves you'll accept any change"

Not anyone, just you. You seem to be one of those people who just willingly swallows everything that comes down the pike that the powers that be want to do with everything and have little to no criticisms with it regardless of how radical the changes may be because you're more interested in the idea of change instead of whether or not something should be. Sounds pretty superficial to me instead of standing for something.

whose actual comments aren't even worth responding to because you already "know what they're thinking."

I don't have to "know" what you're thinking, you pretty much spell it out.

Because in your mind, you are the true fan, and anyone who disagrees must be motivated by something other than how much they like the Flash, so you don't have to respond to their reasons, you can just call them names and say "The comics" because the comics are perfect. You're immune to listening, much less learning.

Immune to learning because you have nothing to teach. I'm not satisfied to hand the studios my characters and say "okay boys, now bend over!" and let them do whatever they see fit to them to make a hip tv show that Dr Cosmic approves of.

I am closed minded to things that don't make sense. And now, that includes having a discussion with you. Good day, sir.

I do believe "sense" is not absolute in this instance. I guess I'll just never be as high on the totem pole as the almighty Dr Cosmic. Yawn.

Adios.

 

[Sawyer]

Now you guys are just talking in circles. So... KS, you're being annoying. There's no getting around it. Cosmic, it's not your job to save him from that path. There. Done.

Now shake hands and walk away.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I can't wait to see where these discussions go once the pilot is actually released.

I hope some people can accept that there are going to be criticisms of the show by then, I'm sure there will be a lot of them..

Why people get so defensive of a show that doesn't belong to them is really strange to me... be open to criticisms people! We're all fans here! We're the same. You don't have to defend every single criticism.... there are soooo many better discussions to be had, and it's way past the point of being annoying. People try to get intellectual in their arguments but they show a clear lack of understanding of what an opinion is.

It's nice to have extreme optimists around here, i like the buzz that it brings, but at the same time, those people think that anyone who isn't extremely optimistic about the project is a b****y pessimist. There is an in between. That's what I'd consider Kevin Smith, myself, and Human Torch to be. We don't blindly accept and praise every aspect of news, we like what we like, and dislike what we don't like. Doesn't make us *****es or pessimists.

 

[Sawyer]

There's a difference between criticisms that deserve to be respected and the **** the Kevin Smith is coming up with. He's literally looking at a few sentences in a casting announcement and saying "I don't like anything they're doing with this character!!!"

Criticism is fine. Nonsense, however, deserves what it gets.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Now you guys are just talking in circles. So... KS, you're being annoying. There's no getting around it. Cosmic, it's not your job to save him from that path. There. Done.

Now shake hands and walk away.

So Cosmic - DOCTOR Cosmic ( ), is seen as a self sacrificing figure in your eyes, whilst fat Kevin Smith sinks into a "pit"...

Eh well.