The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[boba loba]

Joaquin is great but I don’t think Fleck is anywhere near his best performance. There’s at least a solid half dozen superior Phoenix performances - not that hard for an incredibly talented actor like Keoghan to top, especially since he’ll probably be working with a far better written screenplay.

You guys are seriously underselling Joaquin's performance. Sure, Keoghan might be great in the role, but he won't come close to Joaquin in terms of acting.

 

[cryptic name]

Is anyone else disappointed that there seems to be no Court Of Owls set up ?

I’m a little relieved

 

[SwordOfMorning]

You guys are seriously underselling Joaquin's performance. Sure, Keoghan might be great in the role, but he won't come close to Joaquin in terms of acting.

Joaquin's performance is really, really good but it's not like it's some all timer great screen performance - it's not within a mile of Ledger as the same character, for instance. It's a great actor doing great work, but it's not anything massively special by Phoenix's standards - a lot of the dialogue he has to deliver also borders on being actively bad which undercuts his performance at times.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Phoenix's performance was amazing.

But it's not the Joker, that we all know. Intentionally so.

So I almost don't rank him in the conversation. He's just doing something totally different.

 

[flygerr5]

Joaquin is great but I don’t think Fleck is anywhere near his best performance. There’s at least a solid half dozen superior Phoenix performances - not that hard for an incredibly talented actor like Keoghan to top, especially since he’ll probably be working with a far better written screenplay.

This. I think Keoghan's Joker will be the best we've ever gotten simply because this is Matt's vision. He's going to provide us with the definitive versions of all these characters. Plus, Barry is a really good actor

 

[flygerr5]

You guys are seriously underselling Joaquin's performance. Sure, Keoghan might be great in the role, but he won't come close to Joaquin in terms of acting.

How do you know he won't be better than Phoenix in terms of acting?

 

[AndyTrevino]

Joaquin was incredible but was in no way the definitive performance of the character. Joker is inherently incomplete without Batman. Heath’s performance is much more well rounded than Joaquin’s as well.

Uber-sympathetic Joker is also just.......kinda lame within the broader scope of an actual Batman universe and I really don't care for the character having been turned into some voice or mascot for the lower class. It's time to make him truly evil again.

And the people who complain about that probably don't even really "get" The Joker to begin with. Past a certain point, can they even call themselves fans of the character anymore?

 

[Mani-Man]

You guys are seriously underselling Joaquin's performance. Sure, Keoghan might be great in the role, but he won't come close to Joaquin in terms of acting.

Its a bit strange talking about underselling an actors performance, while saying in the same post that without having seen a second of anothers actors performance of the character, that he wont come close to said "undersold" Actor.

Personally when it comes to the joker, i dont think you can measure any Actors performance.
The character leaves way too much room for actors to play how they seem fit.
Add to that the very different approaches of the directors, the scripts etc...and looking at how much in the comics people can play around with the character, i dont think its really possible to measure it.

Is anyone else disappointed that there seems to be no Court Of Owls set up ?

A bit because i recently read the court of owls story again and i hunger for a live action version of the story so much.
But i dont know yet if i even would want to see them in Reeves universe.
I need this movie first before really being able to tell what imo works and what not.

 

[DarkVengeancel]

Exactly that's how you know it's realistic. There's no guy running around in a Batsuit just a clown and his message on society.

you're an idiot

 

[Mani-Man]

you're an idiot

This is really how you want to start your time here?
By quoting a post 10+ pages ago to make a childish insult?

Better drop the wannabe edgy Twitter guy act soon, you wont survive long here otherwise.
If you disagree with someone, handle it like a grown up.
You have enough room to do so on this forum.

 

[C Prometheus]

This. I think Keoghan's Joker will be the best we've ever gotten simply because this is Matt's vision. He's going to provide us with the definitive versions of all these characters. Plus, Barry is a really good actor

Yeah, I'm kinda perplexed at the sudden suggestions that Barry won't deliver as Joker. He's an insanely talented actor and IMO he's one of the more inspired options that Matt Reeves could have come up with for selecting as Joker against Rob's Batman.

It'll take a bit before we get to really see him in action, but I don't doubt that Barry is going to crush it in the role once he's given the limelight.

 

[Iceman]

It’s a great acting performance from Phoenix. Ledger gives my favourite Joker performance though, great acting but also making Joker in the way I love seeing him.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Joaquin's performance is really, really good but it's not like it's some all timer great screen performance - it's not within a mile of Ledger as the same character, for instance. It's a great actor doing great work, but it's not anything massively special by Phoenix's standards - a lot of the dialogue he has to deliver also borders on being actively bad which undercuts his performance at times.

I couldn't have said it better. Phoenix delivered a fantastic performance, the movie didn't feel like the Joker to me until the last 10 minutes. It works for someone who isn't familiar with Scorceses work, but I don't think the movie has aged particularly well in the few years it's been out. It's almost like it's masquerading as a better movie than it really was. I still like it, and think there are truly great moments, but I pretty much ech Tarantinos feelings on the movie. Phoenix was great, but not close to Ledger. For me, Ledger gave essentially the definitive movie Joker portrayal. Not everybody agrees on that though, so that's okay. I think Barry is gonna give us another great addition too. I could easily see him being my second favorite right under Ledger.

 

[Babillygunn]

you're an idiot

My prediction: you will rightly be getting the boot if you post like this.

 

[Boom]

I was a big advocate for the Joker movie, and I believed quite strongly that the character could work entirely independent from Batman. And it did for the most part. But I have to admit that while I thought Phoenix delivered a wonderful performance, I left that movie feeling like something was missing. Even now, the particular take on The Joker lacks the punch that Heath Ledger's delivered. Turns out the Batman/Joker dynamic was more intrinsic to the character than I thought.

Again, not to knock Phoenix's performance, but in terms of ranking Jokers I have a really hard time putting him above Ledger and even Nicholson. There's a notable lack of mythos with that take.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I was a big advocate for the Joker movie, and I believed quite strongly that the character could work entirely independent from Batman. And it did for the most part. But I have to admit that while I thought Phoenix delivered a wonderful performance, I left that movie feeling like something was missing. Even now, the particular take on The Joker lacks the punch that Heath Ledger's delivered. Turns out the Batman/Joker dynamic was more intrinsic to the character than I thought.

Again, not to knock Phoenix's performance, but in terms of ranking Jokers I have a real hard time putting him above Ledger and even Nicholson.

Same boat for me. I initially was against having a Joker movie and while it turned out far better than I thought it would, i don't really get what the point of the movie is supposed to be. I have a friend who said "it was really good, but it didn't feel like the Joker", which is where I think the main problem is. Here's how I'd rank the Jokers.

Heath Ledger
Jack Nicholson
Joaquin Phoenix
Caesar Romero



Jared Leto

 

[Boom]

Same boat for me. I initially was against having a Joker movie and while it turned out far better than I thought it would, i don't really get what the point of the movie is supposed to be. I have a friend who said "it was really good, but it didn't feel like the Joker", which is where I think the main problem is. Here's how I'd rank the Jokers.

Heath Ledger
Jack Nicholson
Joaquin Phoenix
Caesar Romero
Jared Leto

Matches my rankings exactly. Though it should be said that there is a significant gap between Romero and Leto.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Matches my rankings exactly. Though it should be said that there is a significant gap between Romero and Leto.

You're right! I'll get on that immediately.

 

[Luke995]

I was giving a look at Zero Year plot (damn, I have to buy this comic series!) and I was thinking...

What if Reeves took inspiration from it not just for all the flood/Riddler thing but also for the Red Hood Gang?

Maybe that subplot will be the keystone of GCPD series, so they can introduce a sort of a origin story of Joker without explain all his life and character. He is one of the misterious member of the gang or maybe the leader until he falls in acid and goes crazy, so Batman put him in Arkham: he's not the Joker yet, but Batman has a special link with him because he is the one that "created" him.

A mash up from The Killing Joke, Zero Year and Burton's Joker.

 

[BatLobster]

I was a big advocate for the Joker movie, and I believed quite strongly that the character could work entirely independent from Batman. And it did for the most part. But I have to admit that while I thought Phoenix delivered a wonderful performance, I left that movie feeling like something was missing. Even now, the particular take on The Joker lacks the punch that Heath Ledger's delivered. Turns out the Batman/Joker dynamic was more intrinsic to the character than I thought.

Again, not to knock Phoenix's performance, but in terms of ranking Jokers I have a real hard time putting him above Ledger and even Nicholson.

I thought it was a great "descent into madness" performance taken on its own, but I really don't feel like he actually played The Joker so much as a crazed clown guy inspired by The Joker.

The talkshow scene is tense and disturbing as hell, and maybe one of the most shocking things we've seen The Joker do in a film, so I think it does leave an impression. But yeah, it's just not The Joker to me. I was surprised to see how many people said Phoenix had eclipsed Heath after the film came out. I think the R-rated violent content may have had something to do with that, or just good ol' recency bias.

Jack embodied a perfectly valid take on The Joker and doesn't get nearly enough credit these days. Yes, he was Jack as Joker, but it was perfect casting and added a level of prestige to the movie that set a precedent for the entire franchise. It's the darker and more twisted cousin of Caesar Romero's Joker, which was perfect for the time and the tone of the film.

Heath, we all know, just transcended to another level with that performance. It still doesn't make sense to me to this day that the hunky dude from A Knight's Tale is underneath there somewhere.

 

[flygerr5]

Yeah, I'm kinda perplexed at the sudden suggestions that Barry won't deliver as Joker. He's an insanely talented actor and IMO he's one of the more inspired options that Matt Reeves could have come up with for selecting as Joker against Rob's Batman.

It'll take a bit before we get to really see him in action, but I don't doubt that Barry is going to crush it in the role once he's given the limelight.

Agreed. Caleb Landry Jones was initially my dream fancast for Joker in this universe, but after the Barry Keoghan stuff leaked, I was perplexed at how the perfect actor for Joker was under our noses the entire time. The Stanley Merkel title really threw a lot of people off the scent of predicting him as Joker. And I have to admit, I didn't know much about Barry before the news leaked, but I went and watched all of his best roles and I'm completely convinced this guy is going to BECOME the Joker and be the definitive version. I can't wait to hear that laugh in the theatre for the first time...

 

[WayneMB]

I thought it was a great "descent into madness" performance taken on its own, but I really don't feel like he actually played The Joker so much as a crazed clown guy inspired by The Joker.

The talkshow scene is tense and disturbing as hell, and maybe one of the most shocking things we've seen The Joker do in a film, so I think it does leave an impression. But yeah, it's just not The Joker to me. I was surprised to see how many people said Phoenix had eclipsed Heath after the film came out. I think the R-rated violent content may have had something to do with that, or just good ol' recency bias.

Jack embodied a perfectly valid take on The Joker and doesn't get nearly enough credit these days. Yes, he was Jack as Joker, but it was perfect casting and added a level of prestige to the movie that set a precedent for the entire franchise. It's the darker and more twisted cousin of Caesar Romero's Joker, which was perfect for the time and the tone of the film.

Heath, we all know, just transcended to another level with that performance. It still doesn't make sense to me to this day that the hunky dude from A Knight's Tale is underneath there somewhere.

Yeah , Ever since seeing the movie, i feel like it's an average at best rehash of scorsese's greatest hits with an actor who gives an incredible performance of not the joker, but someone who descended into madness and thinks he's the comicbook villain - the joker.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I thought it was a great "descent into madness" performance taken on its own, but I really don't feel like he actually played The Joker so much as a crazed clown dude inspired by The Joker.

The talkshow scene is tense and disturbing as hell, and maybe one of the most shocking things we've seen The Joker do in a film, so I think it does leave an impression.

This is why I don't rank Phoenix in the discussion.

It's kind of like when an artist/band does an album that diverts so far from their genre (Queen's Hot Space, KISS' Carnival of Souls, etc.) that it doesn't factor into your rankings because it's such its own thing...that it doesn't even come to mind or 'count' as a proper album by them.

He's doing his own thing. And it doesn't really rank in the mix for that reason.

Also, that talk show scene is one of the things that showed me people are much less desensitized to violence in general and in film than we often hear.

When Joker pulled out that gun and shot - the whole theater was shocked and reacted with horror. And everyone I've seen watching it since reacts the same way.

 

[Boom]

I thought it was a great "descent into madness" performance taken on its own, but I really don't feel like he actually played The Joker so much as a crazed clown guy inspired by The Joker.

The talkshow scene is tense and disturbing as hell, and maybe one of the most shocking things we've seen The Joker do in a film, so I think it does leave an impression. But yeah, it's just not The Joker to me. I was surprised to see how many people said Phoenix had eclipsed Heath after the film came out. I think the R-rated violent content may have had something to do with that, or just good ol' recency bias.

Jack embodied a perfectly valid take on The Joker and doesn't get nearly enough credit these days. Yes, he was Jack as Joker, but it was perfect casting and added a level of prestige to the movie that set a precedent for the entire franchise. It's the darker and more twisted cousin of Caesar Romero's Joker, which was perfect for the time and the tone of the film.

Heath, we all know, just transcended to another level with that performance. It still doesn't make sense to me to this day that the hunky dude from A Knight's Tale is underneath there somewhere.

Phoenix delivered a phenomenal performance, but Ledger's was transformative. He tapped into something that took him completely out of himself. His Joker is one of the great screen villains of all time, and for me it's simply not close when comparing him to the others.

 

[MasterBoss]

Joaquin's performance is really, really good but it's not like it's some all timer great screen performance - it's not within a mile of Ledger as the same character, for instance. It's a great actor doing great work, but it's not anything massively special by Phoenix's standards - a lot of the dialogue he has to deliver also borders on being actively bad which undercuts his performance at times.

Joker isn't even a top five performance from him.

I'm glad he got his oscar though.