The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BMW 224]

The classic comics showman Joker just isn't possible in this universe Matt has created I feel like. If it were, we would have seen a more traditional take on the Riddler character. But Matt has set the mood and the tone of the universe, and I think he wants Joker to be the grittiest, darkest and scariest character. I'm not saying this Joker won't have chaotic outbursts of energy, but I think people should equally be prepared for a Joker that stares creepily in silence and smiles.... moves in a stealth way.... and has an unsettling presence. I just think he's going to be downright CREEPY

That would make a boring dynamic between Joker and Battinson and rest of the cast.



Joker NEEDS to be a showman.

You can't just throw that aspect away.

Heath Ledger Joker shows that you can make the character gritty scary while still keeping the showman aspect.

It goes well beyond classic it's a essential part of the character.

It's like getting rid of Two Faces coin or Riddler's riddles.

If you get rid of it you make Joker "to serious" when the whole point is that he thinks life's a joke.

 

[flygerr5]

That would make a boring dynamic between Joker and Battinson and rest of the cast.



Joker NEEDS to be a showman.

You can't just throw that aspect away.

Heath Ledger Joker shows that you can make the character gritty scary while still keeping the showman aspect.

It goes well beyond classic it's a essential part of the character.

It's like getting rid of Two Faces coin or Riddler's riddles.

If you get rid of it you make Joker "to serious" when the whole point is that he thinks life's a joke.

All I'm saying is, it can be extremely dark and serious and still have those aspects you speak of. There isn't just one definite way of adapting the character. I firmly believe this Joker will be the scariest one, and to be the scariest, you have to tone down the whole showman, flamboyant part of the character, and focus more on his psyche and trauma. "That would make a boring dynamic between Joker and Battinson" that is your opinion, I think it would be the opposite of boring.

 

[Captain Tired]

You can have a Joker who's funny and who thinks life is a joke while still not depicting him as a flamboyantly OTT showman type. The two aren't mutually exclusive aspects of the character. Despite the series as a whole being kind of suspect, I'm personally very fond of Frank Miller's morose and deadly serious Joker in All Star Batman and Robin, where the name 'Joker' is really more of an ironic nickname or a misnomer. Having said all that, I don't agree that the world of Matt Reeves' Batman would necessarily preclude that showman type of Joker from being involved. There are ways the two can be reconciled credibly.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I don't get why people say X isn't possible in Y universe and such.

The real world is a mix of tones. As the border of Ukraine has armed soldiers lining up and people running scared - there's a group in Europe playing Cards Against Humanity and laughing drunk and having a great time innocently.

Reminds me of the MCU discussions where the Netflix series felt like a different universe. BS, I say.

The real world is an inconsistent place tonally, visually, atmospherically, etc.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I love where Reeves is going - but I think like Nolan, he will need to figure out a way to have the characters fit the world he's making without sacrificing what makes them 'them'.

You can't take away the Riddler's riddles.
You can't take away Bane's performance enhancing aspect.
You can't take away Scarecrow's fear toxin.

In the end, if you do, are they really the character?

Be like Batman not having the classic cowl.

 

[AndyTrevino]

All I'm saying is, it can be extremely dark and serious and still have those aspects you speak of. There isn't just one definite way of adapting the character. I firmly believe this Joker will be the scariest one, and to be the scariest, you have to tone down the whole showman, flamboyant part of the character, and focus more on his psyche and trauma. "That would make a boring dynamic between Joker and Battinson" that is your opinion, I think it would be the opposite of boring.

I'd much rather they not focus on any kind of trauma with him at all tbh. For once I'd like for them to imply he was demonic from birth.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I love where Reeves is going - but I think like Nolan, he will need to figure out a way to have the characters fit the world he's making without sacrificing what makes them 'them'.

You can't take away the Riddler's riddles.
You can't take away Bane's performance enhancing aspect.
You can't take away Scarecrow's fear toxin.

In the end, if you do, are they really the character?

Be like Batman not having the classic cowl.

Joker: Charismatic, murderous, sadistic weirdo who finds everything funny?

 

[Captain Tired]

That is the Joker, Andy, yes.

 

[AndyTrevino]

That is the Joker, Andy, yes.

Jus makin sure. Don't yell at me

 

[Art Vandelay]

You can't take away Bane's performance enhancing aspect.

Can't you? I don't feel like DKR really dealt with it all that much, if at all.

 

[boba loba]

Can't you? I don't feel like DKR really dealt with it all that much, if at all.

Dude punched through concrete pillars in his last fight with Batman.

 

[RokMeAmadeus]

The tubes in his mask are also kind of a shout out to the tubes that pump Venom through him.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Dude punched through concrete pillars in his last fight with Batman.

Yeah, but outside of that is it explicitly addressed?

 

[AndyTrevino]

Yeah, but outside of that is it explicitly addressed?

I'd argue the mask kinda gets the point across. When Batman cuts off the anesthetics it's similar to when he often cuts off the venom tubes in the comics

 

[flygerr5]

I'd much rather they not focus on any kind of trauma with him at all tbh. For once I'd like for them to imply he was demonic from birth.

That just seems incredibly hard to do from a writing standpoint. I get why people would want this, but I'd much rather prefer a deep character study on how he became Joker and why he is the way he is. And I feel like we are going to get that with Reeves

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Never felt that whoever Joker was Pre-Joker was important. Maybe he was always a monster, maybe he wasn’t. Maybe he was a gangster or maybe he wasn’t. It’s irrelevant to me.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

As an addendum to that: I hate “boogey man” Joker that Scott Snyder has popularized. He’s called the Joker! There should be some level of theatricality to him! He’s should be the consummate showman. Always like the spotlight is on him. He tells jokes, he does tricks, he’s a clown, he’s a ringmaster. He’ll even do some acting and serenading.

 

[AndyTrevino]

That just seems incredibly hard to do from a writing standpoint. I get why people would want this, but I'd much rather prefer a deep character study on how he became Joker and why he is the way he is. And I feel like we are going to get that with Reeves

See, I feel like focusing too much on what he may have went through undermines his character a bit, especially when you have so many people who are just vicious IRL.

I feel like Joker should be the trope codifier for "repulsive psycho". I like when he gives other serial killers the creeps. THAT'S The Joker to me. Obviously maybe Reeves feels different but I'd like for him to focus on the villainy aspect especially since we just had Phoenix basically doing the same thing.

 

[Iceman]

Never felt that whoever Joker was Pre-Joker was important. Maybe he was always a monster, maybe he wasn’t. Maybe he was a gangster or maybe he wasn’t. It’s irrelevant to me.

I like it being a mystery.

 

[AndyTrevino]

As an addendum to that: I hate “boogey man” Joker that Scott Snyder has popularized. He’s called the Joker! There should be some level of theatricality to him! He’s should be the consummate showman. Always like the spotlight is on him. He tells jokes, he does tricks, he’s a clown, he’s a ringmaster. He’ll even do some acting and serenading.

I mean, you still do kinda get that spotlight and theatricality by having him portrayed as larger than any of us through the Boogeyman stuff.

It's the Ledger ripoff terrorist angle I hate so much for Joker and find FAR more insufferable than painting him as the monster under your bed.

 

[Mani-Man]

For now at least, i hold off any kind of "This is possible or not" in Reeves universe until i saw the movie and saw his version of the Joker.

We havent seen/heard enough imo to make clear statements on which character works how.
I need to see more of the world reeves creates.

Sure i would prefer either Scott Snyders approach or a more classic, im dying for pale white skin and green hair joker...but what i have seen so far makes me trust Reeves, so i let this play out first and only after the movie think about what could work imo.

 

[Disdatboytoy]

That would make a boring dynamic between Joker and Battinson and rest of the cast.



Joker NEEDS to be a showman.

You can't just throw that aspect away.

Heath Ledger Joker shows that you can make the character gritty scary while still keeping the showman aspect.

It goes well beyond classic it's a essential part of the character.

It's like getting rid of Two Faces coin or Riddler's riddles.

If you get rid of it you make Joker "to serious" when the whole point is that he thinks life's a joke.

Lol i love the arguement that " that kinda joker wouldnt fit in matt reeves box " JOKER IS SUPPOSE TO BE OUTSIDE ALL BOXES ... and not since jack Nicholson has any joker put on a show in the vein of "im gonnna give these people a show they wont forget ".... i love heath but he lacked a certain ego that makes the character fascinating... taking a life isnt a big deal because there meaningless lives are a joke anyway .....


The ultimate insult to batmans crusade of perserving life

 

[BMW 224]

Lol i love the arguement that " that kinda joker wouldnt fit in matt reeves box " JOKER IS SUPPOSE TO BE OUTSIDE ALL BOXES ... and not since jack Nicholson has any joker put on a show in the vein of "im gonnna give these people a show they wont forget ".... i love heath but he lacked a certain ego that makes the character fascinating... taking a life isnt a big deal because there meaningless lives are a joke anyway .....


The ultimate insult to batmans crusade of perserving life

Heath Ledger had ego as well in my opinion he also put on a show it just more sadistic and physocpathic sorts of like his first appearance and killing joke.

 

[Captain Tired]

Ledger and Phoenix both had showman qualities to their iterations, just in a more subdued and less ott manner than the likes of Nicholson and Romero.

 

[AndyTrevino]

The Joker should enjoy life in his own weird-@$$ way. Even moreso than the whole nihilist society "life is a joke why won't everyone see that I'm right " angle.