The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Boom]

Yeah the movie definitively clears up the Valet thing. It's 110% not Barry. @Eddie Dean is in shambles.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Lol, i know. So funny to see him actually show up in the movie.

 

[BarryLyndon]

it's like they knew some thought it was Barry cause in the movie you can see his face pretty clearly for a few seconds.

They really wanted us to know it wasn't him.

 

[Kane52630]

The part with "rat with wings = Penguin" was totally a nod from the 66 Batman.

 

[Vaibow]

So I've been thinking more about the inclusion of Joker and think his inclusion is perfect for the possible route and arc Reeves can take Bruce/Batman on, especially if they get that dynamic right. I imagine something like what was explored in the Arkham games.

Joker needs to be in Arkham the whole duration of this arc.... he's in there due to batman, the history is vague as it is mysterious.. if joker can pull strings from behind bars, it will show his power, also, we can see him playing on bruce, pyscologically... haunting him... then, the final show down, where batman comes across him, in the final, movie etc, we can see bruce over him, closure... he leaves him there to rot...

 

[WatchProtect]

Does anyone Happen to have the ending Narration quoted?

 

[DeadlyWest]

Does anyone Happen to have the ending Narration quoted?

I have at least the main part of it

"I'm starting to see now. I have had an effect here, but not the one I intended. Vengeance won't change the past, mine or anyone else's. I have to become more. People need hope, to know someone's out there for them. The city's angry, scarred, like me. Our scars can destroy us, even after the physical wounds have healed. But if we survive them, they can transform us. They can give us the power to endure... and the strength to fight."

 

[WatchProtect]

I have at least the main part of it

"I'm starting to see now. I have had an effect here, but not the one I intended. Vengeance won't change the past, mine or anyone else's. I have to become more. People need hope, to know someone's out there for them. The city's angry, scarred, like me. Our scars can destroy us, even after the physical wounds have healed. But if we survive them, they can transform us. They can give us the power to endure... and the strength to fight."

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

I have at least the main part of it

"I'm starting to see now. I have had an effect here, but not the one I intended. Vengeance won't change the past, mine or anyone else's. I have to become more. People need hope, to know someone's out there for them. The city's angry, scarred, like me. Our scars can destroy us, even after the physical wounds have healed. But if we survive them, they can transform us. They can give us the power to endure... and the strength to fight."

That’s Batman

Can’t wait to see where Reeves takes him going forward and how the people of Gotham will view him after the events of The Batman

 

[Gothamsknight]

Joker needs to be in Arkham the whole duration of this arc.... he's in there due to batman, the history is vague as it is mysterious.. if joker can pull strings from behind bars, it will show his power, also, we can see him playing on bruce, pyscologically... haunting him... then, the final show down, where batman comes across him, in the final, movie etc, we can see bruce over him, closure... he leaves him there to rot...

This would be a great way to do something new with the Joker and avoid retreading what's been done. If you ask me, it's really the only way. Plus it gives the Joker a chance to be established before he becomes the big villain.

 

[Nemeres]

The more I think about it, the more I like what the movie does with the Waynes. They're usually presented as somewhat angelic figures, and they've worked well that way. But a corrupt Thomas and a Martha with a history of serious mental illness gives them a new dimension that reflects on Bruce in very interesting ways. His father's sins force him to drop his black-and-white approach to crime and it's a nice curveball alternative to the Waynes as rich, aloof saints who were just too good for this filthy city. He's less a victim to the city, more another product of it. Something for Bruce to not only avenge, but rise above as well.

Martha and the Arkhams' history also adds color to Bruce's own mental issues. A looming thing for him to dread and want to escape, maybe.

Was meh about it in the trailers. Big fan now.

 

[BatLobster]

I still don't fully get how what he learns about his father has anything to do with the turn he makes at the end.

Like...remove that plot entirely. You still have a story about Batman realizing he's inspired Riddler and an extremist militia. In the end realizing vengeance isn't enough and he has to do better. Seems to track perfectly fine to me.

Beyond that, the Waynes aren't even really depicted as corrupt. The film immediately walks that back and assures us that Thomas was a good man who made a tragic mistake in trying to protect is wife.

This is where the movie feels a bit muddled and bloated to me. Maybe those are threads that will pay off later, but it detracts for me a bit in terms of viewing it as a self-contained story.

 

[Boom]

I still don't fully get how what he learns about his father has anything to do with the turn he makes at the end.

Like...remove that plot entirely. You still have a story about Batman realizing he's inspired Riddler and an extremist militia. In the end realizing vengeance isn't enough and he has to do better. Seems to track perfectly fine to me.

Beyond that, the Waynes aren't even really depicted as corrupt. The film immediately walks that back and assures us that Thomas was a good man who made a tragic mistake in trying to protect is wife.

This is where the movie feels a bit muddled and bloated to me. Maybe those are threads that will pay off later, but it detracts for me a bit in terms of viewing it as a self-contained story.

From the Riddler exposing the "truth" about the Waynes to Carmine Falcone getting shot, the film kinda slowed down for me. In hindsight, the whole reveal about Thomas Wayne didn't amount to much in the end. Maybe we will see the consequences of that revelation in future films, but where it stands now I can't point out any impact it had on Bruce in this film. Alfred defended Thomas and then the subject was basically dropped for good.

 

[BatLobster]

From the Riddler exposing the "truth" about the Waynes to Carmine Falcone getting shot, the film kinda slowed down for me. In hindsight, the whole reveal about Thomas Wayne didn't amount to much in the end. Maybe we will see the consequences of that revelation in future films, but where it stands now I can't point out any impact it had on Bruce in this film. Alfred defended Thomas and then the subject was basically dropped for good.

Yup. It's not like it ruins the movie but I think it's a fair criticism to bring up.

 

[Boom]

Yup. It's not like it ruins the movie but I think it's a fair criticism to bring up.

I guess Reeves needed a way to tie Bruce to Falcone so that there was a narrative reason for him and Selina to keep crossing paths.

In the grand scheme though, you're right. Between "Vengeance" inspiring the Riddler Bros and Nashton delivering that scathing monologue about the "billionaire orphan," we didn't really need the Thomas Wayne subplot to inform Bruce's transformation in this film. And if Reeves was adamant about including it, he should've committed to it all the way like the Telltale game did.

 

[codesveburn]

From the Riddler exposing the "truth" about the Waynes to Carmine Falcone getting shot, the film kinda slowed down for me. In hindsight, the whole reveal about Thomas Wayne didn't amount to much in the end. Maybe we will see the consequences of that revelation in future films, but where it stands now I can't point out any impact it had on Bruce in this film. Alfred defended Thomas and then the subject was basically dropped for good.

I agree, it feels rather flat smh. And I think they cut more moment related to the revelation like this one in bts which maybe we can see how it effected bruce more emotionally...

 

[Brotherhood]

While it may not have been as big an impact as some people may have thought, I think the Waynes reveal was to (narratively) spawn the seed of doubt in what Bruce/Batman was doing and what he was doing it for, which is only heightened by the Riddler and his followers being created from that initial reason, or should I say approach.

 

[BatLobster]

I guess Reeves needed a way to tie Bruce to Falcone so that there was a narrative reason for him and Selina to keep crossing paths.

In the grand scheme though, you're right. Between "Vengeance" inspiring the Riddler Bros and Nashton delivering that scathing monologue about the "billionaire orphan," we didn't really need the Thomas Wayne subplot to inform Bruce's transformation in this film. And if Reeves was adamant about including it, he should've committed to it all the way like the Telltale game did.

I think it's that, and also it seems like he wanted to have the misdirect of Riddler seemingly knowing Bruce's indentity, but then the real 'twist' is that Riddler is just a Batman fanboy. Touching on the Waynes is a way to point us in that direction, I guess.

I can understand why they wanted to take a look at the Waynes in a film where the villain is about exposing the corruption of powerful people in Gotham, but it ends up being a solid chunk of screentime devoted to something that doesn't quite pay off thematically-- at least in this film.

While it may not have been as big an impact as some people may have thought, I think the Waynes reveal was to (narratively) spawn the seed of doubt in what Bruce/Batman was doing and what he was doing it for, which is only heightened by the Riddler and his followers being created from that initial reason.

I suppose there could be something to that. The whole "shake him to his core" thing that Reeves was getting at. I just am not sure it reads in the movie as clearly as maybe it should.

 

[Gothamsknight]

From the Riddler exposing the "truth" about the Waynes to Carmine Falcone getting shot, the film kinda slowed down for me. In hindsight, the whole reveal about Thomas Wayne didn't amount to much in the end. Maybe we will see the consequences of that revelation in future films, but where it stands now I can't point out any impact it had on Bruce in this film. Alfred defended Thomas and then the subject was basically dropped for good.

Yup. It's the only thing in the movie that kinda leaves me scratching my head. I don't think it hurts the plot, I just feel like it didn't need to be there. All the stuff with Batman realizing he caused someone like the Riddler to exist was golden though and worked greatly. I think on rewatch, the parents stuff may be the only thing that kinda feels predictable. That is, of course, unless they expand upon it in the sequels.

 

[Brotherhood]

I do wonder if Martha's history will be explored somewhat in the Arkham series. I imagine it won't be a huge part of it, but considering the connection being canon within this universe, I think you'd be hard pressed not for it to come up in some way.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I can understand why they wanted to take a look at the Waynes in a film where the villain is about exposing the corruption of powerful people in Gotham, but it ends up being a solid chunk of screentime devoted to something that doesn't quite pay off thematically-- at least in this film.

It doesn't pay off, no. And it should - a film shouldn't be dependent on its future installments to pay off something that it made a huge point to establish and 'attempt' to resolve.

I suppose there could be something to that. The whole "shake him to his core" thing that Reeves was getting at. I just am not sure it reads in the movie as clearly as maybe it should.

I think my issue with that is - and I think I've mentioned this before - that the film wants you to see Bruce at that shaken to the core type moment.

But, the revelation doesn't change him.

He was mopey, depressed, withdrawn and solemn before he learned that information.
He was mopey, depressed, withdrawn and solemn after he learned that information.

There's no new behavior to pick up on any changes to him, internally. So, as a viewer, I'm not left with much to pick up on.

 

[Rod]

From the concept art book:

Concept art of Batman saving people from the flood

 

[Doctor Jones]

The Thomas Wayne stuff isn't as well executed as it should have been because it isn't as well integrated into the plot. It works, it's functional and helps Bruce's arc, but apart of me feels that the Thomas Wayne stuff should have been introduced with the mayor's murder or a little later. Being Batman as part of his family's legacy becomes even more personal because now he's trying to clear his family's name. And over the course of the movie the new information keeps challenging him. I don't think they needed to fully commit to Thomas being corrupt, as the greyness of it is the point of Bruce's arc and helps him see less in black and white, it's just the execution. Something that would probably be an entire movie's worth of story or half that is done in three scenes.

But I get it, they're doing a rabbit hole All the President's Men-esque "how far does the corruption go" plot and I get the structural later reveal where Thomas Wayne being at the center of it makes it personal for a myopic Bruce, otherwise introducing it earlier might undermine that. But I do think he can still be myopic with that information earlier by thinking it's not true. All around it's a bump that's not a detriment to the movie structurally or what it's going for because Bruce's arc is still very strong, but I think you needed to get rid of it or just fully commit to it, or there's just another better way to do it.

 

[Tubeofboom]

While it may not have been as big an impact as some people may have thought, I think the Waynes reveal was to (narratively) spawn the seed of doubt in what Bruce/Batman was doing and what he was doing it for, which is only heightened by the Riddler and his followers being created from that initial reason, or should I say approach.

This is mainly what I think as well. Up until that point in the film we don't really know why Bruce is truly doing what he is doing as Batman and what his purpose is. What caused it. You can guess because we know the material and we have prior films to go off of. But in the film it wasn't really addressed. I think the Thomas Wayne angle was brought up to show that he is doing this "experiment" of being batman because of his parents being innocent good people who were murdered. If he believed his parents to be corrupt, I'm not sure he starts this experiment. His conversation with Selina comes to mind when thinking of this, because he pretty much says that Annika should have known what she was getting herself into, as if she pretty much had it coming. Wouldn't be hard for me to see him thinking the same if it remained that Thomas Wayne was indeed corrupt. His mission wouldn't be the same. Not sure if I'm articulating clearly or if I'm even right about Matt Reeve's intention with that storyline, but that's what I got from it after watching a few times.

 

[Brotherhood]

This is mainly what I think as well. Up until that point in the film we don't really know why Bruce is truly doing what he is doing as Batman and what his purpose is. What caused it. You can guess because we know the material and we have prior films to go off of. But in the film it wasn't really addressed. I think the Thomas Wayne angle was brought up to show that he is doing this "experiment" of being batman because of his parents being innocent good people who were murdered. If he believed his parents to be corrupt, I'm not sure he starts this experiment. His conversation with Selina comes to mind when thinking of this, because he pretty much says that Annika should have known what she was getting herself into, as if she pretty much had it coming. Wouldn't be hard for me to see him thinking the same if it remained that Thomas Wayne was indeed corrupt. His mission wouldn't be the same. Not sure if I'm articulating clearly or if I'm even right about Matt Reeve's intention with that storyline, but that's what I got from it after watching a few times.

Thats a good point cause the same could be said for Thomas Wayne. Someone could say he had it coming because of him getting involved with Falcone.