Ant-Man The best way that Marvel can fix this

[jmc]

Do you have proof of directors being nothing but puppets at the MCU?

I never said they were puppets. I was talking personal experience.

 

[Krystal]

Me reading this topic:

LOL.

apparently "The best way that Marvel can fix this"---is by arguing about the outgoing director.

Glad to see the Wright fanatics/fetishists feel the way forward is to complain about their guy being off the movie.

 

[The Question]

Glad to see the Wright fanatics/fetishists feel the way forward is to complain about their guy being off the movie.

Man, you don't have to be mean.

 

[Krystal]

So what do folks actually want from the movie going forward?

radical change? Pym becomes modern hero? Rudd becomes Pym? Drop the presumed 1960s portion? Minor tweaks? crossover characters?

I had accepted the fact that Pym was going to be the lesser import character in the movie and even that Wasp was going to be his daughter as some presumed, but now what? Delay the movie back to Nov 2015 and do a major re-write?

Predictions?
Hopes?
Suggestions?

so damn tired of hearing about the guy getting the sack.

 

[Mysteryman]

Just shoot the film based on the latest draft of the script .

 

[Keyser Soze]

So what do folks actually want from the movie going forward?

radical change? Pym becomes modern hero? Rudd becomes Pym? Drop the presumed 1960s portion? Minor tweaks? crossover characters?

I had accepted the fact that Pym was going to be the lesser import character in the movie and even that Wasp was going to be his daughter as some presumed, but now what? Delay the movie back to Nov 2015 and do a major re-write?

Predictions?
Hopes?
Suggestions?

so damn tired of hearing about the guy getting the sack.

I predict that we'll get a movie that has all the changes that were going to be in Wright's film - Hank Pym is older and played by Michael Douglas, Paul Rudd is playing Scott Lang as Ant-Man, Pym has nothing to do with creating Ultron -only without Wright's scripting and direction to pull it off.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Also, I continue to find it weird how people can get so UPSET over anybody else possibly thinking anyone who disassociates with Marvel Studios could have any worth, as an artist or as a human being. "WHAT!? YOU CAN GO ON LIKING MARVEL STUDIOS AND NOT HATE EDGAR WRIGHT? STOP HURTING MY BRAIN!!!"

I also love how this convo seems to be in a cycle of....

QUESTION: Yeah, best to move forward. Wright's gone, the movie's still happening, and I wish both all the best. So let's think about where the film goes from here.

ANTI-WRIGHT BRIGADE: Yeah, let's do that. But just so you know, Wright's a hack and a prima donna.

QUESTION: Actually, I don't think he....

ANTI-WRIGHT BRIGADE: STOP TALKING ABOUT EDGAR WRIGHT ALL THE TIME! GAWD!

 

[Krystal]

So one line about the movie and 5 paragraphs back on the subject of mr unemployed genius who is off planning his Kolchak movie.

How about inventing a sarcasm icon for

"Shoot Wright's script with a director without the genius to pull it off!"

A good script doesn't need any particular director to make it good.

If it's so damn quirky that only Wright can make it work then *****can it.

 

[Keyser Soze]

So one line about the movie and 5 paragraphs back on the subject of mr unemployed genius who is off planning his Kolchak movie.

How about inventing a sarcasm icon for

"Shoot Wright's script with a director without the genius to pull it off!"

A good script doesn't need any particular director to make it good.

If it's so damn quirky that only Wright can make it work then *****can it.

And this brings me back to the lengthier post I wrote in the other thread a couple of days back: there is a divide between people whose priority will ultimately always boil down to what is the best FILM - the best script, the best cast, and yes, the best director - and those for whom the objective quality of the film itself is utterly irrelevant, and the film's worth is determined solely by how functional it is in adhering to comics canon and enhancing the overarching narrative of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I also love how this convo seems to be in a cycle of....

No the conversation keeps trying to be curtailed by people with generic, ambiguous caveats without real knowledge of what happened.

 

[Krystal]

The best way to fix it is................


delay it until Dec 4, 2015. Dec 4 is 2 weeks after Hunger Games 4 and two before the Star Wars sequel. That's the biggest gap I can see.

 

[Keyser Soze]

No the conversation keeps trying to be curtailed by people with generic, ambiguous caveats without real knowledge of what happened.

Ah, I forget, as it's only the anti-Wright crowd that are allowed to make speculations about what happened or about anybody's motivations. And they don't even need to base their conclusions on reports corroborated from multiple sources, they just need to base it on their gut feeling taken from their dislike of changes to the source material.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Ah, I forget, as it's only the anti-Wright crowd that are allowed to make speculations about what happened or about anybody's motivations. And they don't even need to base their conclusions on reports corroborated from multiple sources, they just need to base it on their gut feeling taken from their dislike of changes to the source material.

It's beyond speculating at this point. It's become overkill, like some bizarre control over the flow of discussion.

We've had varying reports thus far, the one that came out recently is waaaaay different than the ones from this weekend. Gunn said his piece. At the end of the day no matter how much someone wants to sit here pontificating, they don't know a thing about what happened. So some of you are going round and round arguing with vague generalities.

 

[Krystal]

The best way to fix it is................


find a director who takes the whole thing as a huge challenge. someone who has enough confidence to think they can nail it. someone not apologetic and who will not copy some else's style.

"I gonna hit this out of the park--not 'do my best' "---not actually saying that, but who thinks that way.

 

[kedrell]

The studio keeps experiencing that when it gives the directors freedom, and makes them the auteur it gets Avengers, Iron Man 3 and Captain America 2. When it doesn't, it gets Thor, Captain America 1, Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk and Thor 2. They do need "autuer prima donnas" like Black, Gunn and Whedon, they need more of those guys involved. If that means they can't do last minute rewrites and renege on the approval they gave creative directors previously, then maybe they're demanding too much flexibility in some cases to get films on par with the best they've done so far. I thought they'd learned by now, but it sounds like they're okay making mediocre movies so long as the universe-spanning story remains as they have forseen it up until 2028 based on their own limited ideas. Too bad. Our loss.

ALL of the directors so far have been under the same hand and the same stipulations. Some are fine with it and some don't like working that way. It's the individuals themselves that is the deciding factor. When all of their films are good-to-great(which as far as I am concerned, they are) I see no way that how they are running things is wrong. Why on Earth would I be on the side of the director in a situation like this? When MS starts making mediocre movies then I'll start worrying but until then I'll give Fiege the benefit of the doubt every time. Now if this were any of the other 3 studios making superhero films then it would be a different story as all they make in mediocrity as far as I am concerned.

 

[DrCosmic]

ALL of the directors so far have been under the same hand and the same stipulations. Some are fine with it and some don't like working that way. It's the individuals themselves that is the deciding factor. When all of their films are good-to-great(which as far as I am concerned, they are) I see no way that how they are running things is wrong. Why on Earth would I be on the side of the director in a situation like this? When MS starts making mediocre movies then I'll start worrying but until then I'll give Fiege the benefit of the doubt every time. Now if this were any of the other 3 studios making superhero films then it would be a different story as all they make in mediocrity as far as I am concerned.

Except none of that is true. Not only are the stipulations for say Iron Man (make a fun exciting movie) different from the ones for Iron Man 2 (introduce and explore SHIELD), but other studios also make great films, according to things like Rotten Tomatoes, and y'know, people who evaluate movies based on quality as opposed to the studio.

Now it's true, even when Marvel Studios totally ticks off the artists they hire for having vision and then fire for having too much vision, their movies are still mediocre to good (it's arguable that TIH was good for instance), but I prefer great films to good films. I don't think Ant-Man without Wright will be mediocre, but with Wright it could have been great like movies where creators had freedom, y'know, the highest rated and most successful MCU films.

Why would you side with the director? Because when Marvel sides with the director they make great films, not just good ones.

But if you don't care about movie quality - which you might not if you think all MCU films are good and all other superhero movies are mediocre - you wouldn't presume that Feige always makes the right decision.

I don't think it's quite that simple, even if a director who was as enthusiastic as Wright was comes one board he's going to find himself well behind the eight ball in terms of preparation, hell said director himself might not like the way the script looks. The easiest solution is another TV director, which is probably the way Marvel should be heading regardless.

Not just enthusiastic as Wright, but enthusiastic about Wright's vision, so that all the prep they need is their crew and the actual physical/logistical preparations, as opposed to any creative stuff or desire for revisions.

Another TV director who is not enthusiastic about Wright's vision will want changes and generally make a maybe okay movie. They will be equally behind the eight ball, but not as invested or interested in the film overall, and would want to make changes.

So it's not simple, but all things being equal, you want someone who reads Wright's script and is like 'yeah, that's it.' Getting someone who doesn't like Wright's script would help no one in any way.

Maybe Marvel should just hire cool, flexible filmmakers who arent snotty divas. Thats the best way to go.

I thought you weren't beating the dead horse?

You really want to go back to trying to prove that Wright was less flexible than say, Whedon. Whedon actually went into the meeting and told them to change the roster of the Avengers. Did Marvel do a last minute rewrite on Avengers and Whedon was like 'okay cool, forget what we talked about before?' Because if not... you're beating the dead horse without even adding any basis for your statements.

If you don't want to talk about Wright... then don't talk about Wright. Don't bring up Wright and then talk about dead horse, and post gifs about how you don't want to talk about Wright.

Or, we can beat the dead horse together. I need some extra glue anyway. Just pick one and stick with it. At least for 12 hours at a time.

The best way to fix it is................


find a director who takes the whole thing as a huge challenge. someone who has enough confidence to think they can nail it. someone not apologetic and who will not copy some else's style.

"I gonna hit this out of the park--not 'do my best' "---not actually saying that, but who thinks that way.

Pretty much this. Someone who comes into this situation and is like "OH, hex yeah, I got this..." hire that guy, whoever he is.

 

[TheVision]

Joss Whedon must have a lot of knowledge/charm because they listen to what he says. If they both thought Wright was spot on with his take on Anty, wouldnt they support him until the very end? They wouldnt try to mess with his script and would help him change it in a way that was acceptable for both sides. I think Edgar just didnt know what he was doing on this project and Marvel stepped in before the film went right in the toilet. Now Im done... I think?

 

[jmc]

Not just enthusiastic as Wright, but enthusiastic about Wright's vision, so that all the prep they need is their crew and the actual physical/logistical preparations, as opposed to any creative stuff or desire for revisions.

Another TV director who is not enthusiastic about Wright's vision will want changes and generally make a maybe okay movie. They will be equally behind the eight ball, but not as invested or interested in the film overall, and would want to make changes.

So it's not simple, but all things being equal, you want someone who reads Wright's script and is like 'yeah, that's it.' Getting someone who doesn't like Wright's script would help no one in any way.

You can't really ask someone to make Edgar Wright's vision though because ultimately one way or another that's not what Marvel wanted in the end. Wright would still be on board if his vision was being pursued. Clearly for whatever reason that wasn't sorted out within the last 8 years Marvel want something that's different to what Wright wanted, so in essence Wright's vision is now effectively dead and the whole experience has done nothing but waste everyone's time. Right now the choices seem to be either salvage what's left, get some TV guy in to put together something as best they can and hope it turns out, or can the project altogether.

 

[747]

Hire Lord/Miller as directors.

 

[metaphysician]

Budget 140M,
176M Domestic, 193M Foreign

I sounds like 200+M profit, but after marketing and foreign distribution cuts, the number actually comes out very modest. It was successful mind you, but the success wasn't nearly as significant as the non-typical Thor, with it's 449M worldwide.

OTOH, Marvel knew they were releasing the weekend after Harry Potter. I'm pretty sure they adjusted their expectations accordingly.

 

[Mysteryman]

i saw Lord/Miller on somebody's wish list a few days ago .
You never know, it could happen.

 

[metaphysician]

Personally, I'm apt to trust Fiege's judgment 10X more than ANY of the writer's/directors/actors that MS has hired. The studio is the auteur here.

+1

Really, the idea that the director's role as creative god is sacrosanct is, um, nonsense. Every movie needs a creative center, but it doesn't have to be the director. It can be the screenwriter, a lead actor. . . or yes, a producer.

 

[TheVision]

Marvels universe and say on their franchises comes first. We all know that, so why this is a surprise to some, no idea.

 

[metaphysician]

Anyway, I've seen a couple people mention "when Marvel lets the director do their thing, it results in great movies; when Marvel meddles, it results in mediocre movies." Taking this as true for a moment, its still just a correlation. It could mean "Meddling makes for a worse movie". . . but it could also mean "Marvel meddles when the movie is not turning out great."

To use Thor 2 as an example, I know some of you blame Marvel for the poorly paced humor, but we don't actually know that Marvel forced any extra humor in it at all. What we *do* know got added in late, was additional Loki content. And if the argument with Taylor was over Loki dying versus not dying? Then this was not Marvel being an evil interventionist, this was Alan Taylor doing something he really should have not done in the first place, not without explicit approval.

 

[TheVision]

^^ Its always supposed to be about letting these hired filmmakers do their things within the guidelines of MCU. Joss was able to make his own kind of Avengers film. The Russos pitched their take on Cap 2 being a political thriller type film. It was all good. James Gunn obviously was able to do his brand of wacky style for GOTG. Edgar wouldve been able to do his too....if it was anywhere near the mark and/or he was willing to adapt it to fit the universe as it is. It obviously wasnt enough for Marvel to greenlight it.