Ant-Man The best way that Marvel can fix this

Sorry about the double post, but my post was getting pretty long.

I wish people would stop calling GoTG "risky" prior to seeing it. We have no idea if it's risky or not at this point, it might end up having a totally vanilla plot, narrative structure, editing style, morality, thematic content, etc. Or it might not, it might be bold and explore issues of being human in an alien-dominated world, the evolution of human culture, Galactic-scale capitalism, et cetera. We have no idea, let's wait until the movie comes out. Similarly, a script about ordinary people could actually be quite daring in principle.

I'm not sure you understand why it's being called "risky" (I'm not actually sure you're sure what people mean by "risky" at all, to be honest). It's risky because it's "out there" as a concept. Movies before have been grounded on Earth with relatively familiar characters. In addition, it's been awhile since we've even had new characters. The plot when we see it will be part of whether that risk paid off. But it doesn't change whether it's risky. The risk is in making the movie in the first place. Once the movie has been made and released, there's no additional risk, it's either successful or not.
 
I dont think Ant Man is any riskier than any other MCU film really. Its just more science fiction. Tony made the arc reactor, Hank makes Pym particles. Tony has his suit of armor with flight capability/weaponry, Hank/Scott have their suit with ability to shrink/grow etc. The characters are really the main ingredient they need to get right. You can have a neat story/plot, all the cool CGI FX and stylized visuals you want but if we as an audience dont love those characters, it doesnt matter.
 
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Sorry about the double post, but my post was getting pretty long.



I'm not sure you understand why it's being called "risky" (I'm not actually sure you're sure what people mean by "risky" at all, to be honest). It's risky because it's "out there" as a concept. Movies before have been grounded on Earth with relatively familiar characters. In addition, it's been awhile since we've even had new characters. The plot when we see it will be part of whether that risk paid off. But it doesn't change whether it's risky. The risk is in making the movie in the first place. Once the movie has been made and released, there's no additional risk, it's either successful or not.

Even though I explicitly explained what I meant by risky in my post, you still failed to understand and you started talking about something else. Try and read it this time, or don't respond at all:

DA_Champion said:
I wish people would stop calling GoTG "risky" prior to seeing it. We have no idea if it's risky or not at this point, it might end up having a totally vanilla plot, narrative structure, editing style, morality, thematic content, etc. Or it might not, it might be bold and explore issues of being human in an alien-dominated world, the evolution of human culture, Galactic-scale capitalism, et cetera. We have no idea, let's wait until the movie comes out. Similarly, a script about ordinary people could actually be quite daring in principle.

And yes, all of the points I've raised have been independently raised by "other people", since that's the burden of logic for you.
 
I agree completely about Thor. That was a huge risk that many people (me included) thought could very easily blow up in their faces. And they threaded a very fine needle to make it work. The gods as aliens thing was controversial among fans, but it bridged the gap to allow for more fantastical things in the future and it started perfectly (the ancients knew we weren't alone in the universe). I think the sci-fi/Norse mythology thing still sits a bit awkwardly, but I also think movies like Guardians and Dr. Strange are available because Thor blazed that trail. Although, that being said, Helmsworth and Hiddleston have a lot to do with it.

Actually I agree with you guys 100% on this as well. I remember grinning ear to ear after seeing that film because I couldn't believe they pulled it off.
 
Even though I explicitly explained what I meant by risky in my post, you still failed to understand and you started talking about something else. Try and read it this time, or don't respond at all:

Since you were referring to other people calling it "risky," your definition of "risky" isn't really relevant, it's their definition of risky that matters, no? If your point is that people shouldn't call it risky under your definition of risky, I would respond by simply arguing that I don't think they are calling it risky under your definition. Therefore, we're all happy. No one is calling it risky under your definition until after they've seen the movie (just like you've asked).
 
Since you were referring to other people calling it "risky," your definition of "risky" isn't really relevant, it's their definition of risky that matters, no? If your point is that people shouldn't call it risky under your definition of risky, I would respond by simply arguing that I don't think they are calling it risky under your definition. Therefore, we're all happy. No one is calling it risky under your definition until after they've seen the movie (just like you've asked).

OK -- you are incapable of following the conversation and the points raised by several people of Marvel's homogenous and conservative style.

That's too bad.
 
the points raised by several people of Marvel's homogenous and conservative style.
those people would be wrong though. while MCU movies may be similar in 'tone', there is no common 'style'. Neither conservative nor homgenous. what they all have in common is a certain lightheartedness, but that's about it.
 
those people would be wrong though. while MCU movies may be similar in 'tone', there is no common 'style'. Neither conservative nor homgenous. what they all have in common is a certain lightheartedness, but that's about it.

It's not wrong, it's inevitable given that all of the marvel films are the work of the same hands-on auteur producer (Kevin Feige). Just think of Ant Man, they don't even have a director, yet Marvel already has a complete script (not the same script from Cornish and Wright) and the movie is fully storyboarded and primary cast is fully-selected. It will thus end up looking and feeling like other Marvel movies, not like the work of the incoming director.

Also similar editing, similar narrative structure, similar TV cinematography, similar preference for quips-based humour with the exception of Thor 2's slapstick humour, weak villains, similar level of depth, uniform absence of interesting musical scores, big huge battle at the end of the movie of comparable duration and intensity, similar number of action scenes throughout and probably always at the similar points.

I remember walking out of Iron Man in a dollar theatre and walking into The Incredible Hulk. It was at the end battle scene and I realised they could have just interchanged the two battle scenes and nobody would have noticed.

If you don't see the lack of diversity in the MCU films, then quite frankly you need to watch more films. Even if you only watch CBMs, there is nothing like Sin City, Watchmen, The Dark Knight, or First Class among the MCU films.

I can understand why they're doing it, they have found a formula that works well. They follow that formula every time, and I suspect they'll keep following it until it fails a few times in a row.
 
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It would be interesting to see some Marvel films that do not follow their regular formula .
Someday, I suppose
 
Marvel can keep making movies that are set in the shared Marvel cinematic Universe but,

To show that they can make a different type of movie, they just need to make some stand-alone movies that are Not connected to shared MCU.

Moon Knight would be a good stand alone movie.
 
It's not wrong, it's inevitable given that all of the marvel films are the work of the same hands-on auteur producer (Kevin Feige). Just think of Ant Man, they don't even have a director, yet Marvel already has a complete script (not the same script from Cornish and Wright) and the movie is fully storyboarded and primary cast is fully-selected. It will thus end up looking and feeling like other Marvel movies, not like the work of the incoming director.
Yes, all of this preproduction stuff has already been done while Wright was still the director. But with him leaving weeks before production starts, what is MS supposed to do?Throw it all out of the window and start from scratch?

Also similar editing, similar narrative structure, similar TV cinematography,
BS! Kenneth Brannaghs use of tilted angles is something no other MCU movie has done, the editing of CA:TFA was more oriented to movies like ROTLA than IM or TIH, Leterriers use of long, hand held tracking shots is something that is very unique to TIH and a lot more examples could be given, but I know you would either ignore them or call them insignificant or whatever. The narrative structure follows your typical three act blockbuster structure, but so does every other movie that came out over the last 20 years. And even here there are differences if you have an eye for detail. Out of the 9 MCU movies, two (THOR, IM) started with a flash-forward scene, one (IM3) with a flash back (IM3), one used bookends to make the rest of the movie one big flashback (CA:TFA), 3 used a voice over prologue (THOR, T:TDW, IM3).
It may all look similar to you, but looking at it, each movie had a different style, each director brought it's own ideas while, of course. the tone of the shared universe had to be kept intact.


similar preference for quips-based humour with the exception of Thor 2's slapstick humour, weak villains, similar level of depth, uniform absence of interesting musical scores, big huge battle at the end of the movie of comparable duration and intensity, similar number of action scenes throughout and probably always at the similar points.
and here is where you lose all credibility. Weak villains? How can you generalize that? Every script tried to flesh out its villain(s) as good as the writers were able to do so. sometimes it worked (Loki, Hydra, Killian), sometimes not (Malekith, Red Skull), but there is actually a huge difference, quality-wise, between some of them. absence of interesting musical scores? really? the theme for THOR is something I could hum for days, the Avengers theme is easily recognizable and all of the scores are better than that crappy, enervating Hans Zimmer waaaah-waaah-waaah that ruins so many movies today. I won't go in detail abou the 'big huge battle at the end of the movie of comparable duration' stuff, because I know you are fully aware that that's not true, since a lot of the criticisms of some of the movies had to do with the final battle bein either a) too short (IM, THOR, CA:TFA) or b) too long (TIH, TA, CA:TWS)


If you don't see the lack of diversity in the MCU films, then quite frankly you need to watch more films. Even if you only watch CBMs, there is nothing like Sin City, Watchmen, The Dark Knight, or First Class among the MCU films.

I can understand why they're doing it, they have found a formula that works well. They follow that formula every time, and I suspect they'll keep following it until it fails a few times in a row.
Don't worry, I watch more than enough movies, since I do that for a living (Yay, lucky me), in fact, I grew up watching movies since my very early years (saw A Clockwork Orange when I was five and fell in love with medium instantly) and even if I only watched CBMs, I know enough to tell you that TDK, FC and Watchmen bow to the same basic structure, the same usage of 'interchangeable' action scenes and so forth as any other given summer blockbuster. There is no real difference between FC or a MCU movie given your criterias (the MCU version probably would have less misogyny included and the X-kids would have been better cast/ less annoying), the only difference between TDK and the MCU is the tone and that this movie takes itself way too serious (and that Hans Zimmer score, which makes large junks of the movie unwatchable). Watchmen is a failed attempt of practically everything from a director who has a very obvious sexual relationship to the slow-mo function, but it still follows 'the formula' of '00er action movies. The only example of you that was different than the rest was Sin City. But if you really believe that FC or TDK did anything different by your own criterias, then I have to dissappoint you. They did not.
 
OK -- you are incapable of following the conversation and the points raised by several people of Marvel's homogenous and conservative style.

That's too bad.

OK. Even if I were wrong in my interpretation of what has been said so far, it still wouldn't justify your tone.

But, even though your point might have been the same each time, I'm not sure people replying to you necessarily took "risky" the same way, which is why I responded the way I did. I think there's "risky" at the Macro level and "risky" at the Micro level. Both of which involve a "Marvel formula," to the extent there is a formula (which I'm not sure there is). You seem to be talking about the micro-level, which is more about the way movies are scripted, edited, etc. to create a relative consistency in tone. That's something I agree with can't judge Guardians on yet. But, to me, that doesn't make or break the success of a movie (since the success of movies are often determined on opening weekend when word of mouth hasn't yet had a chance to develop). Whether or not Marvel is taking a risk with the movie is on a broader level.

But when I see posts like Raiden's posts here and here, I see posts talking about the macro level. The big picture, so to speak. This means an approach of "grounded fantasy," so to speak, and high interconnectivity (obviously, Raiden can correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting his posts, but the important thing is you can't correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting his posts. If you were ships sailing past each other in the night, that doesn't mean I'm the one who is wrong).

Talking about the Macro level of "risky," there's no question Guardians is risky (it is a high concept science fiction movie with very little attempt to ground the characters to the expected and its set in an area that precludes incorporation of familiar elements of past movies) and there's no question this level of risk is judged ex ante, not ex post. In other words, it's the risk in making the movie in the first place, not risk in hindsight. It's also not about micro-level risk of making the movie in a conventional tone vs. an absurdist tone. I agree completely that a Marvel version of "Being John Malkovich" would be "risky" in the way you used it and that we couldn't judge something like that until after we've seen it, but that's not the way everyone in this thread has been using risky and I don't think it was wrong for my previous post to interpret the conversation to be about a different definition of risky. Even your original response that set this off (about the risk of Marvel's formula getting "stale") is pretty ambiguous on this point.
 
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To show that they can make a different type of movie, they just need to make some stand-alone movies that are Not connected to shared MCU.

Why? They've already shown they can make plenty of different types of movies.
 
Why? They've already shown they can make plenty of different types of movies.

Agreed. They don't "need" to prove anything to anyone, really. The BO of their films speak for their continued success at what they do. Why do they need to fix what isn't broken?
 
That makes a lot of sense, Marvel should make movies NOT connected to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.... Riiiiiiiiight. Anyyyyyways....
 
Agreed. They don't "need" to prove anything to anyone, really. The BO of their films speak for their continued success at what they do. Why do they need to fix what isn't broken?

I mostly agree. But it should be pointed out that box office success doesn't automatically=quality. If that were the case, then the films of Michael Bay and Roland Emmerich would be cinematic masterpieces.
 
I mostly agree. But it should be pointed out that box office success doesn't automatically=quality. If that were the case, then the films of Michael Bay and Roland Emmerich would be cinematic masterpieces.

I'm not saying it does, but why does Marvel need to prove they can make non-MCU films? Who do they need to prove this to? Fanboys? Film critics? Why? I don't see a good reason.
 
That makes a lot of sense, Marvel should make movies NOT connected to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.... Riiiiiiiiight. Anyyyyyways....

Blade, Punisher, Ghost Rider etc are dark by nature. Characters like Iron Man are more flexible in tone but I prefer what we got in IM1. Serious but their is enjoyment and a good balance of humour.

Characters like Blade, Ghost Rider, Punisher might work better in their own little MCU.
 
The tone the MCU has is perfect to me. They make stories that have stakes for everyone involved but theres always moments of humor to make it feel more human and doesnt rely on that kind of fake emo melodrama stuff we see in other movies of this type.

One of the best scenes is in Iron Man with Tony and Yinsen. Of course those guys only knew each other for a short time but the way Tony is affected by Yinsens devotion to his family and giving his life to help him get out just works perfectly. Its those brief but impactful moments which elevate the films.
 
It will thus end up looking and feeling like other Marvel movies, not like the work of the incoming director.

Also similar editing, similar narrative structure, similar TV cinematography, similar preference for quips-based humour with the exception of Thor 2's slapstick humour, weak villains, similar level of depth, uniform absence of interesting musical scores, big huge battle at the end of the movie of comparable duration and intensity, similar number of action scenes throughout and probably always at the similar points.

I remember walking out of Iron Man in a dollar theatre and walking into The Incredible Hulk. It was at the end battle scene and I realised they could have just interchanged the two battle scenes and nobody would have noticed.

If you don't see the lack of diversity in the MCU films, then quite frankly you need to watch more films. Even if you only watch CBMs, there is nothing like Sin City, Watchmen, The Dark Knight, or First Class among the MCU films.

I can understand why they're doing it, they have found a formula that works well. They follow that formula every time, and I suspect they'll keep following it until it fails a few times in a row.

It would be interesting to see some Marvel films that do not follow their regular formula .
Someday, I suppose

Interesting points.

I read someone else's comment in another thread, can't remember fully but the gist was that Marvel and Feige started out wanting to make good movies that culminated with a big team-up and they did it and it made bank.

Then the Disney suits got involved and wanted to keep the formula the same so as to keep the box office high, thus has led to the factory/assembly line similarities and criticisms the movies have had. No longer are they artists making art but artists commissioned to make lots of art in a shorter space of time to sell to keep profits high.

Whether that's true or to what extent I don't know but there are critisms of the movies being too samey, predictable and less individual and unique

They don't have a good relationship with their directors. I imagine that's because directors are film makers who liked to stretch their artistic talents whereas Marvel wants them to follow an instruction sheet so to speak.
 
I remember walking out of Iron Man in a dollar theatre and walking into The Incredible Hulk. It was at the end battle scene and I realised they could have just interchanged the two battle scenes and nobody would have noticed.

If you don't see the lack of diversity in the MCU films, then quite frankly you need to watch more films. Even if you only watch CBMs, there is nothing like Sin City, Watchmen, The Dark Knight, or First Class among the MCU films.

I can understand why they're doing it, they have found a formula that works well. They follow that formula every time, and I suspect they'll keep following it until it fails a few times in a row.

Oh so wait, there was "diversity" in the Nolan Batman universe? News to me.

Lumping those examples together is poorly done. I love Watchmen to death but none of these CBM's will ever touch it in terms of it's meaty subject matter. Not to mention, most of the GA didn't have the patience for it. So why would the MCU ever attempt to re-create something like that?

Sin City is it's own thing that no other CBM looks like or has the pace of. XFC should never be mentioned in the same breath as any of these films you bring up. What exactly was in that film that the MCU hasn't approached?

People keep bringing up the whole "some day people will tire" ..... really? You don't say? That goes for any movie studio, not just the MCU. When it happens they will have to adjust the formula. It's almost like it's being insinuated they haven't been trying to stay ahead of the curve. For me CA:TWS was the first entry into that. I mean hell they've been merging their CBM's with other genres (i.e buddy cop film, political thriller). Next up is the all-out sci-fi. Let's cool it with the one-tone talk.
 
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One thing people fail to mention when referencing Batman and Watchmen is the fact they really arent "super heroes" as we know them. Theyre basically glorified vigilantes with some fighting skills & cool gadgets. I dont consider them to be pure super heroes like the Avengers are. Sin City is a noir themed graphic novel, thats not super heroes either.
 

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