BvS The BvS Ultimate Cut Thread - Part 3

[DCW]

Man, people who keep saying the same thing over and over again every single day for months about a movie they hate ... could you please give me your spare time so at least I can do something productive with it?

 

[Reel-Man]

That's the quote of year for me. haha

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Man, people who keep saying the same thing over and over again every single day for months about a movie they hate ... could you please give me your spare time so at least I can do something productive with it?

On a different forum, I'd probably just ignore it as trolling or trying to get people riled up, but on here, I feel like everybody brings something valid to the table, because we all, or it seems most of us, have some kind of different experience or perspective, having grown up loving these characters. It's not like Game Of Thrones or Harry Potter, where there is basically one source material that we can all point to. There's 75+ years of stories, books, cartoons, films, TV Shows, and more, for not one, but TWO of the biggest characters in American (or World) literature, there's going to be a LOT of different expectations and examples to point to for why this film did or didn't work, I really enjoy reading the negative and positive opinions.


The T-Shirt photo is pretty lame, in my opinion. It's an easy and obvious joke, taken from the most famous scene in a Will Ferrell movie, that completely ignores every line of dialouge and scene leading up to that moment.


I feel like I always have to lead with the Disclaimer that I did like the film. Sometimes it seems people get so far to one side or the other that you can't accept anything good about the film, or you can't criticize a single thing, kinda like a political argument on Facebook.

But, I do think there is some validity to what one poster said (forgot who) a few pages back, that they basically said "Ooh, what if he fights Batman!" DING! And then they worked their way backwards from that, to contrive a scenario in which these two fight and reconcile (and they got a little heavy handed with Luthor's hyping the fight up "Day vs Night!" Which was obviously included just to use in the marketing (too bad the trailer announcer guy from 90's movies has gone out of style)).



Some of their ideas worked great, like showing how traumatic the Black Zero event was from Bruce Wayne's perspective, or starting out with a Batman that has 20 years worth of history to draw from. But they also had to rely a bit much on telling and not showing, unseen forces and events driving the character's motivations, acting irrationally, and the characters not having a chance to have a single conversation. Like, I buy that this is a Superman struggling and just starting out, but I don't really buy his initial, singular attempt to confront Batman by just bullying and intimidating him and flying off. How is that gonna work, dude? It's like that woman told him "A man like that only understands fists." And he was like "Okay, I agree!"


Having said that, I think that's one thing people gloss over when talking about Batman's motivations. Imagine you've been busting your ass for 20 years with an obsessive goal that's caused you to lose people you love, somebody comes around who makes all of your effort feel irrelevant, you already have an extreme complex about feeling powerless and loss of control, somebody younger with little experience, and he basically shows up and says "Look, it's cute that you wanna stay up past your bedtime, but it's time to put on your Jammies and go to to bed, before I put you to bed." Haha I mean, you're gonna be looking for whatever justification you can to wipe that disapproving scowl off his face and knock that d***splash off his high horse (hey, the horse motif!).


And maybe people don't wanna see their characters acting out of a sense of machismo, as Lois Lane would put it, "measuring d***s", but in a lot of ways, that's what the character of Batman boils down to, a complex of feeling powerless leads him to want to assert dominance and control. I think it's cool that they went there with the character, instead of just glossing over it and painting him as Mr. Perfect. As Debra Snyder says, people don't like to see their heroes deconstructed. Maybe that truly is the case, or maybe they just didn't do it quite right, idk, that seems to be what every argument boils down to.

 

[The Joker]

Luke has his nooooo line in Empire strikes back.

Is Empire Strikes Back one of the prequels? Because I distinctly mentioned prequels. Which is where Darth's Noooooooo is mocked.

Man, people who keep saying the same thing over and over again every single day for months about a movie they hate ... could you please give me your spare time so at least I can do something productive with it?

Conversely you could easily say what is so productive about coming here daily and repeating the same praises over and over? The only way it's not productive is if people are getting no enjoyment from critical discussions about this. Speaking strictly for myself, I do.

Also this is not a fan forum. Negative opinions are as much at home here as the positives. Flock to your positive comments only thread if you're jaded of seeing negative opinions. Or put the negative posters on ignore.

Because the only thing that is redundant is complaining about the complaining!

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Let's not start talking about what is or isn't a waste of time on here, I don't wanna think about it lol. If people have the movie on their mind, they're free to talk about it on here.


Love or hate it, the movie has a lot of subtext, symbolism, metaphor, there's a lot that they don't specifically show or tell you (like Batman never talks about Robin, they just show you the suit with the writing). So, it allows for a lot of interpretation, a lot of debate. We all have our own opinions about wether that's a good or bad thing or if it was effective or not (for me, it works for the most part)

 

[Saint]

Well, I had to shell out thirty bucks to watch the damn thing, but I did it. It remains genuinely unpleasant to watch.

I knew this cut wouldn't significantly change my opinion of the film, but I had heard it fleshed out some areas and added greater context so I figured it was worth giving a chance. While the cut adjusts some small nitpicks I had with the film, I think the impact of these scenes has been overstated. The problematic areas of the film aren't really improved by this new context, and the pacing remains terrible. In particular, there's more detail building up the conflict between Batman and Superman, but it remains as contrived and wrongheaded as ever before.

To be fair to this cut, though, I was never going to like a film where Batman is an actual monster, Superman is a wastrel, and Lex Luthor is a played like a stammering youtube personality.

Frustratingly, I think the message of the film could have been a strong one, if, you know, it had been good.

 

[BETArayBill]

I just watched the ultimate cut yesterday not expecting to like it that much more but I've gotta say it really cleaned up a lot of problems for me the Africa scene the conflict between Batman and Superman and Lex's plan to pit them against each other and all the scenes the cut out with Clark investigating Batman really helped flesh out the movie for me it raises my original score from a 6.5 to an 8 which I'm still shocked about big improvement overall.

 

[Victarion]

I had fun with it.

Seeing Batman start from rockbottom, Supes struggling for acceptance in the world, and Lex's labyrinthine plot to smear Supes were great; it reminded me of Joker's plot in TDK, except on a more global scale and with higher stakes. A few lines I would have changed - like the dead crook's wife, I'd have had her say something like "You know what it'd take to stop the Bat? A bullet to the skull." or "Violence is the only language the Bat speaks." There were a couple of other similar lines I'd have changed a bit.

It was nice to see the consequences of the Bat-branding; it added a nice layer of ambiguity to what Batman was doing in the name of justice (or pettiness). Lex's mania was a nice counterpoint to the sheer mean-spiritedness we saw through his various lackeys. I'm hoping we see Lex stepping more into the mold of the Lex Luthor from the 00's Justice League cartoon.

I'd give it a 8 or 8.5/10. Doomsday should've been someone in prosthetics, and there's a few instances of dialogue that didn't work for me. The movie was also pretty light on the DKR elements, moreso than I had hoped.

 

[Mace Dolex]

So I saw The Ultimate Cut spread over two days because in all truth I can't sit through a 3 hour movie in one viewing, my mind gets distracted especially for superhero movies that don't promise the needed action it it deserves, do the extra 30 minutes add anything to the film? Well it fills in gaps that might have helped explain some scenes in the theatrical version.

And Jenna Malone, while she may be an indie favorite why even cast her when it would have been better just leaving the investigation of the bullet to Lois, that's what reporters do right?

I don't see the Ultimate Cut getting as many repeated viewings seeing as how it's nearly 2 hours until the showdown with Batman and Superman.

 

[the5timechamp]

The more I view this film the more I like it.. sure the warts are as present as ever but somehow I find myself enjoying it more and more...

-All that being said, its sad that the fight between bats and superman is the weakest aspect of the film....

-As much grief as I give the Nolan films for bad fight choreography I am now starting to notice how awful the fighting is during the Knightmare sequence...people just waiting to fall, armed men lunging in instead of shooting..the same kind of stuff Nolan was guilty of.

-scenes in the film flow a little better in the ultimate cut... though personally a much shorter cut of the movie could still be managed if we dumped a few "unnecessary" scenes.. the knightmare, the batdemon dream, and the flying with bats scene at the beginning.

-I must admit to being blind having never noticed all the crosses in the background in the aftermath of the Doomsday fight..

 

[HKpowerup]

The Ultimate Edition is definitely better but I can't help but wonder if they did a solo Batman movie first, and an MoS sequel that would then build up to the fight between the two in BvS, that it might have allowed for a greater pay-off. Or if it wasn't a grand scheme organized by Lex and the two characters are purely only coming to blows over their ideological differences.

Superman's death was actually quite moving the second time around, and everyone's reaction was beautifully acted and very touching. I just wish it was saved for much later in the DCU, and the impact would therefore have been much, much greater. What a waste!

BvS could have been significantly better in my opinion if WB just didn't rush it and they allowed a more natural storyline to develop. The ideological philosophies between Batman and Superman if allowed to develop over a number of film would've been incredible to see without interference from Lex.

The best aspects of the film remain Ben Affleck's portrayal of Batman/Bruce Wayne, the visuals and the tone as well, which is also something I liked and had no issues with. The script and story set-up simply did not work for me. Still I give it a 7/10.

 

[Sleiek]

The more I view this film the more I like it.. sure the warts are as present as ever but somehow I find myself enjoying it more and more...

-All that being said, its sad that the fight between bats and superman is the weakest aspect of the film....

-As much grief as I give the Nolan films for bad fight choreography I am now starting to notice how awful the fighting is during the Knightmare sequence...people just waiting to fall, armed men lunging in instead of shooting..the same kind of stuff Nolan was guilty of.

-scenes in the film flow a little better in the ultimate cut... though personally a much shorter cut of the movie could still be managed if we dumped a few "unnecessary" scenes.. the knightmare, the batdemon dream, and the flying with bats scene at the beginning.

-I must admit to being blind having never noticed all the crosses in the background in the aftermath of the Doomsday fight..

Yeah I actually noticed this the first time around. But fortunately, in my opinion, it was not AS BAD I mean those guys don't get invisible punches or kicks.

And thankfully nothing like it happened in the warehouse scene where the guys actually fired on Batman and his suit just absorbed the impact/deflected the bullets.

 

[King23DC]

Ultimate Edition made the narrative tighter but that's it. A lot more useless scenes to add to an already long movie that has too much filler.

Only would've kept the scenes of Superman saving civilians, Security Cam footage of Batman, and just a bit of Clark investigating The Batman. Rest is near pointless. And that Affleck ass shot? Totally awkward and unnecessary.

 

[Delwin]

It is strange - on the one hand the film is very slow while on the other: too many things at the same time. I agree that it would be better to have single Batman/Wonder Woman movie and then make the BvS. It seems that sombody rushed to keep pace with Avengers which has not paid off.

Snyder is great at visuals while really weak at storytelling. It is really a shame - all main actors did solid job but the scenario was flawed and the main conflict was really weakly engaged and then too quickly resolved. CA: CW, having similar conflict story, was significantly better.

I really hope that all those characters will get some better stories...

 

[AnneFan]

Perry says the American conscience died with the Kennedys. And in the UC we get a closeup of a newspaper front page reporting on JFK's death. Can't be a coincidence.

 

[chintai80]

Finally watched the ultimate cut.

Oh boy, this movie is long af - I ended up sleeping at 3:00am.
I can see people feeling it might be too long, too slow or boring to sit through.

But overall, I liked it and I did not like the theatrical cut.
The pacing is mostly fixed and the plot is more coherent now.
Some of the transitions and the story is still a bit all over the place.

I feel like Snyder was trying to "out-Nolan" Nolan here by having a multi-layered narrative - he did a decent job overall, but I think he still stumbled a bit.
Some elements used to get the story to move along were still clumsy or contrived.
Snyder is being very ambitious here, and I can appreciate that, but I think he needed to be more focused in the storytelling.
Having symbolism and some subtext is deep and cool, but let's not forget to have some rational, good plotting here!

I liked the extra subplot of Clark investigating the Batman -- it help fleshed out the Batman/Superman conflict. And it shows more of Clark's empathy and connection with the common people.
I liked the part of Superman stopping the drone missiles in Africa and saving the injured after the Capitol bombing as well.
Also liked they showed more of Lois Lane's concurrent investigation of Lex Luthor.

I feel these subplots of Clark and Lois were integral to the story so not sure why they cut these out of the theatrical cut.
The movie made more sense now with these scenes added back in!

The movie does look beautiful on Blu-ray.
Ulitmately (hehe), I say this ultimate edition is a good, but not great, movie.
The extra bits sprinkled here and there throughout helped clean up the narrative and allowed me to enjoy the viewing more.

I would give the theatrical cut a score of 5/10.
The ultimate cut is a 7.5/10.

 

[Sleiek]

Don't know why nobody is talking about 3D. I have asked about it a few times because I was getting my copy late.

But now that I got my copy, the first thing I tried is the 3D and to my surprise, IT IS OUTSTANDING. Really have no idea why they discouraged 3D shows at the theatre. My shows showed the 2D version even though it was supposed to play it in 3D.

Almost all of the scenes have a depth. Many scenes have an impressive 3D effect. Many actions scenes that are already glorious look even more glorious in 3D because the depth highlights some of the details I missed.

The Doomsday Shockwave somehow looks 10 times more beautiful in 3D. Some scenes have more than a 3 layer depth and they really add to the scene. That one shot where Lois is grieving over the body of Superman with Batman and Wonder Woman at her side, that scene was freaking impressive in 3D.

Compared to other 3D movies I have seen, 10 being the best 3D movie I have scene, I would rate this a 8/10.

 

[Mace Dolex]

Don't know if it's of any importance but I thought we would get an explanation as to what Bruce was whispering to the black MMA type fighter in the underground brawl, what purpose did that serve?

 

[The Shape]

He was telling him how to properly beat the **** out of the other guy...

 

[Mace Dolex]

^ ....uhh ok, so that the Russian guy would get upset and then in a sheer coincidence to go get a drink just so that Bruce can clone his phone?

 

[chintai80]

yea, thats one of the number of dumb, contrived parts in the story that the ultimate cut does not fix.

 

[The Shape]

^ ....uhh ok, so that the Russian guy would get upset and then in a sheer coincidence to go get a drink just so that Bruce can clone his phone?

No, so he could win/end the fight. The only reason Bruce was there in the first place was to try to get close enough to the Russian or in a position that would allow him to clone the phone -- not realizing that the Russian likely knew what was going on and what Bruce was really doing there.

 

[Sleiek]

yea, thats one of the number of dumb, contrived parts in the story that the ultimate cut does not fix.

What exactly was dumb in that scene?

 

[chintai80]

What exactly was dumb in that scene?

what mace dolex said:

"^ ....uhh ok, so that the Russian guy would get upset and then in a sheer coincidence to go get a drink just so that Bruce can clone his phone?"

just seems too coincidental to me as well. i feel the movie has a number of these kind of moments -- stuff that doesn't really make sense, but it used to move the plot along. i still liked the ulitmate cut, but i noticed these parts still.

 

[Sleiek]

Seriously? That's dumb?

Wow. Bruce Wayne was observing the Russian the whole time, there will be an opportunity one after the other. The way they did was one of the nicer setups where Bruce talks to him in the bar while his device does the work.