Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 2

[Mjölnir]

I do acknowledge what you're trying to say, but it is simply undeniable that Zemo's plot makes no sense.

Zemo's plot: Get Cap and Tony in a room, show them the video and they fight to the death. That's laughable on every level.

And you see it in the delivery. Tony asks Cap if he knew. If Caps say no, then nothing happens. Cap says he does know and hid it from him from good reason - OK death match then. It's really bad scripting.


Marvel wants it's heroes to be heroes then tries to make a movie about pitting them against each other, it just doesn't create any tension. It's pretty, BP was cool, SM was cool, they all looked cool, but it has no weight to it. You can't stack this movie against CATWS which had an emotional core that mattered. This one was fundamentally a flawed concept because of the MCU rules. They'll course correct in Infinity Wars because they're all good guys again with a new bad guy. Given that the Russos at least could do a good bad guy (albeit a ridiculous plotline) means I hope with tighter scripting they can deliver on Thanos.

Yes, if Cap says "no" to the question Iron Man will lose all his desire to punish Bucky for what he did.

 

[Charlatan]

OK...I guess?

Still doesn't change the fact that Batman was reduced to being a character that was VERY easily misled and not treated like one of the smartest people on the planet much less the worlds greatest detective.

I guess it all depends on your definition of "easily" is.

I'd say that losing hundreds, if not thousands, of employees wasn't easy on Bruce. All Lex did was rub salt in that wound. Lex didn't start Bruce hating on Supes. He just exploited it. Like Zemo. He didn't start the clash between Cap and Iron Man, he just exploited/intensified it.

 

[Enriquespy]

It's not the first, nor the last time that a bad guy pits the good guys against each other.
A common place doesn't make it a bad place.

 

[Tymminator]

I guess it all depends on your definition of "easily" is.

I'd say that losing hundreds, if not thousands, of employees wasn't easy on Bruce. All Lex did was rub salt in that wound. Lex didn't start Bruce hating on Supes. He just exploited it. Like Zemo. He didn't start the clash between Cap and Iron Man, he just exploited/intensified it.

It would explain Batman thinking Supes was a newb and that's about it, it's obvious Supes was the fighting for earth even though there was serious collateral damage. It can explain why he blames him for his people TO A POINT but it doesn't explain the irrational hate where he can't see reality, irrational hate leads you to being blind and stupid and easy to lead, none of these should ever be Batman no matter which version you pick over the years.

Now that said, lets either take it to PMs or even another thread. I don't want to derail this thread which is about Civil War.

 

[FunkMiller]

I guess it all depends on your definition of "easily" is.

I'd say that losing hundreds, if not thousands, of employees wasn't easy on Bruce. All Lex did was rub salt in that wound. Lex didn't start Bruce hating on Supes. He just exploited it. Like Zemo. He didn't start the clash between Cap and Iron Man, he just exploited/intensified it.

Zemo exploited an understandable enmity between two former friends by revealing a dark secret.

Luthor exploited Batman's stupidity at thinking Superman was responsible for the destruction in New York - and also kidnapped Superman's mum.

 

[Probotector]

R.e. Zemo's plan. There is nothing to say he didn't have further plans and contingencies if things had worked out differently. He was determined to split the Avengers apart and was willing to spend years and try multiple plans to do it. Marvel spent multiple films demonstrating there was tension between Cap and IM that could be exploited. It was plausible that this could be done and if his plan hadn't worked he would have tried something else. It didn't have to work out exactly as it did for him to still have the evidence of what happened to Stark's parents and use it to drive a wedge between him and Cap.

 

[Probotector]

What's more, the film didn't have to convince us IM wanted to kill Cap, only that he wanted to kill Bucky - which it did. Cap is obviously not going to let him do that. It made sense. Convincing the audience two friends wanted to kill each other over an ideological dispute would have been impossible.

 

[Tymminator]

Do you guys think when we next see Cap he will have an energy shield for awhile?

 

[Endeavor]

Do you guys think when we next see Cap he will have an energy shield for awhile?

Coulson will lend him his hand

 

[Tymminator]

Coulson will lend him his hand

I was looking for a GIF of Coulson's shield to put with my post too.

 

[MarvelMayhem]

What's more, the film didn't have to convince us IM wanted to kill Cap, only that he wanted to kill Bucky - which it did. Cap is obviously not going to let him do that. It made sense. Convincing the audience two friends wanted to kill each other over an ideological dispute would have been impossible.

I totally agree with this. Thats what I felt was wrong with BvS. It lacked emotional depth to 'feed' such hostility. Yes I do realize Affleck loss employees and what not but literally in CW the last fight is really between 2 people- 1 fighting for the life of his "brother"- and the other to revenge a family member. It makes it more believable and personal.

 

[Avid Avenger]

Yes, if Cap says "no" to the question Iron Man will lose all his desire to punish Bucky for what he did.

I know....you can't make this s*** up.

R.e. Zemo's plan. There is nothing to say he didn't have further plans and contingencies if things had worked out differently. He was determined to split the Avengers apart and was willing to spend years and try multiple plans to do it. Marvel spent multiple films demonstrating there was tension between Cap and IM that could be exploited. It was plausible that this could be done and if his plan hadn't worked he would have tried something else. It didn't have to work out exactly as it did for him to still have the evidence of what happened to Stark's parents and use it to drive a wedge between him and Cap.

I agree. However I do believe that Buckys secret and having (probably) researched and studied Cap and Tony...he knew that is something would shatter them.
It was successfully getting the 3 of them, together, into a situation that was only ever going to end badly. And to get to that point, his plan had many contingencies and back ups...but Bucky was the endgame.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Do you guys think when we next see Cap he will have an energy shield for awhile?

Don't see any need to, tbh - mean, Caps in Wakanda, after all. There's every chance that T'Challa has one made for him, what with Vibranium and scientific know how being plentiful there and all.

 

[Nathan]

Guess Bucky in Wakanda, also pretty much confirms that he'll get an arm made out vibranium. Maybe including some nifty toys. What's Bucky's arm like in the comics?

 

[Nyarleth]

I know....you can't make this s*** up.




I agree. However I do believe that Buckys secret and having (probably) researched and studied Cap and Tony...he knew that is something would shatter them.
It was successfully getting the 3 of them, together, into a situation that was only ever going to end badly. And to get to that point, his plan had many contingencies and back ups...but Bucky was the endgame.

Also does anyone else think it matters that only 3 of them were there? I hear a lot of arguments that Zemo couldnt possibly know that only Cap, WS and Stark will show up. To me it doesn't matter and i think to Zemo it doesnt matter. No matter who shows up (as long as the 3 of them are included) once Stark learns the truth it ends the same way. With more avengers there perhaps even worse. Anyone agrees?

 

[TeeKay]

Also does anyone else think it matters that only 3 of them were there? I hear a lot of arguments that Zemo couldnt possibly know that only Cap, WS and Stark will show up. To me it doesn't matter and i think to Zemo it doesnt matter. No matter who shows up (as long as the 3 of them are included) once Stark learns the truth it ends the same way. With more avengers there perhaps even worse. Anyone agrees?

Yes so much this. It was always gonna end in a brawl. Just as long as Bucky, Steve and Tony were there.

 

[Schlosser85]

Did Bucky himself already know he killed the Starks, or did he find out at the same time as Tony?

 

[Tymminator]

Also does anyone else think it matters that only 3 of them were there? I hear a lot of arguments that Zemo couldnt possibly know that only Cap, WS and Stark will show up. To me it doesn't matter and i think to Zemo it doesnt matter. No matter who shows up (as long as the 3 of them are included) once Stark learns the truth it ends the same way. With more avengers there perhaps even worse. Anyone agrees?

I think even if the opportunity of the three of them didn't happen, he could have eventually put it on the Internet and a fight would have happened shortly after that somewhere. The information was just too potent.

 

[Enriquespy]

Did Bucky himself already know he killed the Starks, or did he find out at the same time as Tony?

He said he remembered every one he killed while on brainwashy state.

and he knew dad Stark personally so...

 

[SuperSanchez]

He said he remembered every one he killed while on brainwashy state.

and he knew dad Stark personally so...

how did he know howard stark personally?

 

[jokesonm3]

But how Cap knew the cold truth is still a mystery to me.

 

[SuperSanchez]

Idk this might sound stupid but I kinda like thinking of how scenes could've been different in the movie but how would you guys feel if in the final battle Captain went to smash his shield into Iron Man but then Iron Man moved out of the way and his shield sliced Bucky's metal arm off. This would make Cap feel more guilty.

 

[SuperSanchez]

But how Cap knew the cold truth is still a mystery to me.

have you seen captain america: the winter soldier?

 

[JtheDreamer]

But how Cap knew the cold truth is still a mystery to me.

Allow me to catch you up. God I love this sequence.

[YT]62cjheqv-nw[/YT]

 

[irapogi]

how did he know howard stark personally?

From TFA. I'm assuming Stark was equipping Cap and all the howling commandos as well.