Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 3

[TalismanRing]

You still couldnt find an instance where Cap is ready to accept responsability for his actions.

To put in simple terms, Cap views himself above any law and any authority.

So long as he does what he believes is right, everything else will take a backseat.

That can come out in the best way possible, like in TWS, but it can have its consequences too, like in CW. The Avengers being fugitives isnt a good thing... for anybody.

After he rescues the troops in TFA he turns himself over to his commander for discipline. He allows himself to be arrested after the Bucky/T'Challa chase when he could easily resist.

What Steve considers himself above is injustice not the law and they are mostly definitely not one and the same, especially in the MCU.

The Avengers being toadies for Ross or prisoners in the Raft helps whom?

I also don't see Tony turning himself over to Ross for breaking The Accords. Ditto T'Challa.

 

[javonstokess]

^Steve is not saying he's above responsibility, he's saying that the Avengers shouldn't be restricted by the whims of a government body of officials.

The funny thing is if all this had gone down as soon as he was thawed out, I'd bet Steve would be signing the Accords and Tony would be against them. It's amazing how the characters have changed since their initial movies.

 

[javonstokess]

That's why his friends are there. To prevent him from acting impulsively and making a mistake. How's he gonna get past Thor and Captain America to run to his Iron Man suit?

You're over-simplifying the situation.

Look at how Tony acts when the Avengers are just sitting around talking about Accords. Look at how he acts when Cap tries to talk him out of turning on Vision.

Tony just DOES things. He's almost like a force of nature.

 

[Iceman]

The funny thing is if all this had gone down as soon as he was thawed out, I'd bet Steve would be signing the Accords and Tony would be against them. It's amazing how the characters have changed since their initial movies.

Yes an interesting change that. Shows these characters are capable of growing and adapting their ideals through experience and with different situations.

 

[shadowboxxx]

After he rescues the troops in TFA he turns himself over to his commander for discipline. He allows himself to be arrested after the Bucky/T'Challa chase when he could easily resist.

What Steve considers himself above is injustice not the law and they are mostly definitely not one and the same, especially in the MCU.

The Avengers being toadies for Ross or prisoners in the Raft helps whom?

I also don't see Tony turning himself over to Ross for breaking The Accords. Ditto T'Challa.

When I say he considers himself above the law, Im not talking about the Accords.

You can rationalize him attacking cops by saying he was trying to save them from Bucky. Here is the thing, that doesnt make it right. 1st, Bucky wasnt going to kill them, and 2nd not every decision is Cap's to make.

Ill give you a hypothetical. If Cap got info that Bucky was hiding in Wakanda, do you think he would infiltrate or would he respect their laws?

I know it sounds like I just want to criticize Cap, but what Im trying to point out is that this is who Cap is.

 

[ernesth100]

True. But you'd think after Ultron, Tony would learn to not shoot first and ask questions later. I mean, what if in the spur of the fight. Cap got hit with that unibeam instead and died?

 

[javonstokess]

When I say he considers himself above the law, Im not talking about the Accords.

You can rationalize him attacking cops by saying he was trying to save them from Bucky. Here is the thing, that doesnt make it right. 1st, Bucky wasnt going to kill them, and 2nd not every decision is Cap's to make.

Ill give you a hypothetical. If Cap got info that Bucky was hiding in Wakanda, do you think he would infiltrate or would he respect their laws?

I know it sounds like I just want to criticize Cap, but what Im trying to point out is that this is who Cap is.

Bucky wasn't going to kill them? He literally hit a man in the chest with a cinder block using a bionic arm. Remember him throwing the cop over the rail and Steve having to catch him to save his life?

While Cap didn't do the "legal" thing, he did the "right" thing. And frankly, most non-government sponsored super heroes consider themselves "above the law" anyway which is why they do what they do.

 

[javonstokess]

True. But you'd think after Ultron, Tony would learn to not shoot first and ask questions later. I mean, what if in the spur of the fight. Cap got hit with that unibeam instead and died?

In every Marvel movie Tony has been shown to be an impulsive guy. It's his nature.

 

[Supernova]

After seeing the movie again I just think starks side of the argument makes way too much sense and cap comes off looking stupid and now an international wanted man for helping and protecting a murderer friend or not.

Like when at the airport cap and stark are having there dispute before the fight starts about cap breaking up the avengers by not signing.mand cap saying to y did by signing. I Was just sitting there thinking well cap you and your rogues avengers chose to live outside of the law and not be hoven to authority of any kind. Lets just say cap and his team made it to russia and fought the evil super soldiers and won, they would still have to sign or would cap still be bullish?

 

[shadowboxxx]

You're over-simplifying the situation.

Look at how Tony acts when the Avengers are just sitting around talking about Accords. Look at how he acts when Cap tries to talk him out of turning on Vision.

Tony just DOES things. He's almost like a force of nature.

Im still trying to figure out what it is you are suggesting that Tony would do that is so terrible.

 

[ctsketch]

When I say he considers himself above the law, Im not talking about the Accords.

You can rationalize him attacking cops by saying he was trying to save them from Bucky. Here is the thing, that doesnt make it right. 1st, Bucky wasnt going to kill them, and 2nd not every decision is Cap's to make.

Ill give you a hypothetical. If Cap got info that Bucky was hiding in Wakanda, do you think he would infiltrate or would he respect their laws?

I know it sounds like I just want to criticize Cap, but what Im trying to point out is that this is who Cap is.

bucky did almost kill ONE cop

 

[ctsketch]

After seeing the movie again I just think starks side of the argument makes way too much sense and cap comes off looking stupid and now an international wanted man for helping and protecting a murderer friend or not.

Like when at the airport cap and stark are having there dispute before the fight starts about cap breaking up the avengers by not signing.mand cap saying to y did by signing. I Was just sitting there thinking well cap you and your rogues avengers chose to live outside of the law and not be hoven to authority of any kind. Lets just say cap and his team made it to russia and fought the evil super soldiers and won, they would still have to sign or would cap still be bullish?

Cap almost signed till he found out Tony was holding Wanda against her will

 

[ctsketch]

I would also like to add that i LOVE the amount of debate this movie has created....like the russos said...

 

[TalismanRing]

When I say he considers himself above the law, Im not talking about the Accords.

You can rationalize him attacking cops by saying he was trying to save them from Bucky. Here is the thing, that doesnt make it right. 1st, Bucky wasnt going to kill them, and 2nd not every decision is Cap's to make.

Ill give you a hypothetical. If Cap got info that Bucky was hiding in Wakanda, do you think he would infiltrate or would he respect their laws?

I know it sounds like I just want to criticize Cap, but what Im trying to point out is that this is who Cap is.

Steve went there to keep any one from being killed, not just Bucky but if Bucky was in WS mode (which he was believed to be or there wouldn't ahve been a Shoot To Kill order) any of the Task Force sent to get him. He tells Nat this and when it's over and they've been arrested and she says see this is the mess I was talking about and he says no one died so it was a success - that's all he cares about. And he's right and they're wrong.

That's who Steve is. He's never going to replace his moral imperative with someone elses' be they his boss (Col Phillips, Nicky Fury), his agency (SHIELD), a World Empowered Agency (WSC), his gov't (Secretary Of State Ross) or the U.N.

Its right there in his dialog with Tony - that when he sees a bad situation go down he can not just stand there and ignore it. He tried to say sometimes he wishes he could and Tony calls him on it - he doesn't wish he could.

He's not going to be like Lieutenant-General Roméo Antonius Dallaire, trying to commit suicide because against his own better and argued judgement he followed U.N. directives that allowed a genocide to happen.

In Tony's conversation with Peter, Peter actually mirrors Steve's position about having to help if you have the power or it means being responsible for the bad things happening.

In the end Tony feels the same way. After he tells Ross about Zemo and the UN bombing and the possible threat and Ross dismisses it and him he lies to Ross and defies the Accords and goes to help on his own.

 

[javonstokess]

Im still trying to figure out what it is you are suggesting that Tony would do that is so terrible.

Tony would have gone on a vengeance fueled mission to "get" Bucky.

No matter of hand holding or intervention would have stopped him.

 

[javonstokess]

After seeing the movie again I just think starks side of the argument makes way too much sense and cap comes off looking stupid and now an international wanted man for helping and protecting a murderer friend or not.

Like when at the airport cap and stark are having there dispute before the fight starts about cap breaking up the avengers by not signing.mand cap saying to y did by signing. I Was just sitting there thinking well cap you and your rogues avengers chose to live outside of the law and not be hoven to authority of any kind. Lets just say cap and his team made it to russia and fought the evil super soldiers and won, they would still have to sign or would cap still be bullish?

Cap's position was never to be above the law. Cap's position is to NOT have the Avengers be at the command of a group of individuals who's agendas might not jive with doing the "right" thing.

For example: Ross wouldn't let Stark use the Avengers to capture Cap and his crew even though only an organization like the Avengers would be able to.

Tony knows that Cap is right because he clearly breaks the Accords multiple times in the movie.

 

[shadowboxxx]

Tony would have gone on a vengeance fueled mission to "get" Bucky.

No matter of hand holding or intervention would have stopped him.

Untrue. Tony Starks may be impulsive but he isnt unable to distinguish right from wrong. So Tony would have been on a mission to kill the heads of Hydra, but I dont see him being on a quest to kill a brainwashed goon.

How much do you wanna bet that the next time we see Starks, he will have calmed down and wont be trying to kill Bucky anymore?

 

[javonstokess]

Untrue. Tony Starks may be impulsive but he isnt unable to distinguish right from wrong. So Tony would have been on a mission to kill the heads of Hydra, but I dont see him being on a quest to kill a brainwashed goon.

How much do you wanna bet that the next time we see Starks, he will have calmed down and wont be trying to kill Bucky anymore?

We're not going to agree on this apparently. I respect your opinion, I just think otherwise.

Anywho, of course he'll be calmed down. Like all men, once you beat the crap out of something/someone, you generally have a moment of clarity after. The denouement in Civil War was during Stark's "moment of clarity".

 

[InCali]

Untrue. Tony Starks may be impulsive but he isnt unable to distinguish right from wrong. So Tony would have been on a mission to kill the heads of Hydra, but I dont see him being on a quest to kill a brainwashed goon.

How much do you wanna bet that the next time we see Starks, he will have calmed down and wont be trying to kill Bucky anymore?

THAT will be up to the writers. They can play it either way, but my guess is that, after awhile, you are right. I think even after he cools down, he's going to want to off TWS or at least bring him in for punishment; both of which are, IMO, not okay or fair in any way. He needs help and not imprisonment. T'Challa sees this and so does Cap.

IMO, I can't see why anyone would think Stark is right. On some level I don't even think Stark thinks Stark is right because he crosses the line himself out of feelings of friendship.

I think Cap is absolutely correct to reject Ross. That guy is a sleazy bucket of $#!t and he's about the LAST person I'd like to see have any oversight authority of The Avengers. I wouldn't let him be my dogsitter.

 

[Rote]

Steve went there to keep any one from being killed, not just Bucky but if Bucky was in WS mode (which he was believed to be or there wouldn't ahve been a Shoot To Kill order) any of the Task Force sent to get him. He tells Nat this and when it's over and they've been arrested and she says see this is the mess I was talking about and he says no one died so it was a success - that's all he cares about. And he's right and they're wrong.

No. What he actually said was: "He's alive", not "They're alive". And his previous dialog with Sam:

-Did she tell you to stay out of it? Might have a point.
-He'd do it for me.
-1945, maybe.I just want to make sure we considered all our options. The people that shoot at you, usually wind up shooting at me.

Steve had nothing to reply. But he still took Sam with him. And in that moment before Sharon's warning he didn't even know about shoot on sight orders or that Bucky was innocent. He said to Nat: "If he's this far gone, then I should be the one to bring him in."
Of course Steve wanted to keep everyone from being killed, Cap is Cap, but for me it was pretty clear, that it was a little selfish, because he's doing it much more for Bucky first and foremost, he wouldn't do the same for some noname. Evans said multiple times and so did the Russos, that Steve became selfish in this movie, he chooses Bucky over his new avenger's family and he won't do so much for anybody else.

 

[Anita18]

THAT will be up to the writers. They can play it either way, but my guess is that, after awhile, you are right. I think even after he cools down, he's going to want to off TWS or at least bring him in for punishment; both of which are, IMO, not okay or fair in any way. He needs help and not imprisonment. T'Challa sees this and so does Cap.

IMO, I can't see why anyone would think Stark is right. On some level I don't even think Stark thinks Stark is right because he crosses the line himself out of feelings of friendship.

I think Cap is absolutely correct to reject Ross. That guy is a sleazy bucket of $#!t and he's about the LAST person I'd like to see have any oversight authority of The Avengers. I wouldn't let him be my dogsitter.

I think Tony will be peeved, but I don't think he'll be out for Bucky's blood once he's calmed down. He knew Bucky was a brainwashed assassin when he offered Steve rehab for Bucky, and I think he understands that it would be purely selfish and totally hypocritical if he reneged on that after discovering his parents were one of the targets.

YES General Ross is such a skeeze. That's why I went for Natasha when she told Tony to watch his back. It wasn't about the Avengers going against Tony, it was how Ross was going to play Tony instead, and turns out she was right.

 

[InCali]

No. What he actually said was: "He's alive", not "They're alive". And his previous dialog with Sam:
Steve had nothing to reply. But he still took Sam with him. And in that moment before Sharon's warning he didn't even know about shoot on sight orders or that Bucky was innocent. He said to Nat: "If he's this far gone, then I should be the one to bring him in."
Of course Steve wanted to keep everyone from being killed, Cap is Cap, but for me it was pretty clear, that it was a little selfish, because he's doing it much more for Bucky first and foremost, he wouldn't do the same for some noname. Evans said multiple times and so did the Russos, that Steve became selfish in this movie, he chooses Bucky over his new avenger's family and he won't do so much for anybody else.

Being completely and utterly loyal to your childhood friend that protected you = selfish. Uh....okay.....I guess. From my perspective, Steve was trying to make sure Bucky wasn't killed; plain and simple. He knew the Bucky that he grew up with wouldn't do the things he did and he wasn't going to let anybody kill his friend who had been brainwashed. It was an easy choice IMO. We don't know exactly to what ends he would go for another friend because another friend wasn't in Bucky's situation. It's not what the movie was about, but I think Cap would have done whatever he could to save an innocent (and I consider Bucky just that) because that's his basic nature.

Stark isn't a bad guy. He's guilt ridden with a big helping of arrogance and narcissism, but he's losing a lot of his negative qualities and becoming much more self sacrificing. He's just wrong to think turning things over to Ross is the answer. He's a victim or his past mistake (Ultron).

EDIT: Oh yeah.....the GM scene was really cool, but I think they overdid the Imperial Walker aspect of GM. He wasn't slow in the comics. That was kind of lame and I hope they fix it. I've been dying for GM since AM was released. He can be such an awesome character. At 12 feet he's at his strongest (I think that's right in the old comics....).

 

[InCali]

I think Tony will be peeved, but I don't think he'll be out for Bucky's blood once he's calmed down. He knew Bucky was a brainwashed assassin when he offered Steve rehab for Bucky, and I think he understands that it would be purely selfish and totally hypocritical if he reneged on that after discovering his parents were one of the targets.

YES General Ross is such a skeeze. That's why I went for Natasha when she told Tony to watch his back. It wasn't about the Avengers going against Tony, it was how Ross was going to play Tony instead, and turns out she was right.

That seems right. Tony's a really decent, caring guy. I'm glad to see his transformation, but he better keep the sarcastic, snide sense of humor or I'm gonna be

 

[shadowboxxx]

THAT will be up to the writers. They can play it either way, but my guess is that, after awhile, you are right. I think even after he cools down, he's going to want to off TWS or at least bring him in for punishment; both of which are, IMO, not okay or fair in any way. He needs help and not imprisonment. T'Challa sees this and so does Cap.

IMO, I can't see why anyone would think Stark is right. On some level I don't even think Stark thinks Stark is right because he crosses the line himself out of feelings of friendship.

I think Cap is absolutely correct to reject Ross. That guy is a sleazy bucket of $#!t and he's about the LAST person I'd like to see have any oversight authority of The Avengers. I wouldn't let him be my dogsitter.

Everything is up to the writers.

But here are the facts. We have never known Tony to be blindly driven to do evil acts. Ever. As pig-headed as we have seen him be, its always been about doing good in the world. Think about it, he could have blamed Cap for WM going down. But he left his critically injured best friend behind to go help Cap. This isnt a guy solely driven by revenge.

Yes, he snapped when he saw his parents get murdered. His friend's betrayal twisted the knife that was already firmly planted. The writers couldnt make that any clearer for us. BUT, if the writers decide to take Tony on an arc where he is driven by revenge, they will have taken a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide left turn with the character.

 

[Enriquespy]

BUT, if the writers decide to take Tony on an arc where he is driven by revenge, they will have taken a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide left turn with the character.

I believe that Tony will eventually find peace by "killing" the winter soldier: by removing the brain programation inside of bucky with the memory thingy that he showed in the university.