The Clinton Thread

[Addendum]

Silly cromlech t:

 

[hippie_hunter]

Silly cromlech t:

You're asking for probation mister

 

[Addendum]

coleopterous colocynth with a pet coelacanth

 

[Matt]

Electability is kind of a bull **** argument. What proof does she have that she is the "most electable?" Is she going to go by states she won in the Democratic Primary? Or is she going to look at recent polls, as she did in that opinion piece? Because if she is looking at recent polls, she doesn't have much of an argument. Obama wins PA, Ohio, Virginia, Iowa, Indiana, Colorado, New Mexico and New Hampshire. He wins against McCain, with 300 electoral votes exactly. She has no solid argument. She can say "well I win blue collar voters" but there's no solid evidence that he won't win in November.

It doesn't matter if the argument makes sense to you. She has sold it to 50 % of the party and to have them behind her attacking Obama all the way through August will destroy him. It is like Germany during WWII. They could've taken either Russia or England, but they couldn't handle a war from both fronts. Obama may have to bring Clinton on just to avoid being attacked from both fronts.

Having Clinton on Obama's ticket is too much baggage and would probably cause a lot of his supporters to end up disillusioned with his message of change and lose a bit of independent support which he needs since McCain takes a larger chunk of Democrats than he takes of Republicans.

Its a risk, but what is the bigger risk? Having to face two opponents or having someone that may turn off a handful of your supporters while rallying others to your cause?

 

[Matt]

We should use "*****e bag" for them. It's a word not specific to any gender or race. It's also mind numblingly accurate.

They're vaginal hygiene products? Lets just not use insults at all...we're all adults, lets act like it please. And I'm not just talking to Chairman.

 

[The Senator]

It doesn't matter if the argument makes sense to you. She has sold it to 50 % of the party and to have them behind her attacking Obama all the way through August will destroy him. It is like Germany during WWII. They could've taken either Russia or England, but they couldn't handle a war from both fronts. Obama may have to bring Clinton on just to avoid being attacked from both fronts.

He may avoid being attacked by Clinton supporters, but I have a feeling that a good chunk of his supporters (as well as independents and Republicans) will attack him for putting "that woman" on the ticket. Most independents and Republicans who supported him will not support Clinton, and I highly doubt they will support her inclusion on the ticket as a running mate. That will be a fatal blow to his campaign, not to mention his presidency (if he does manage to get elected).

 

[Marx]

You mean I have just walked into another heated debate in the political forum?

I don't believe it!

 

[The Senator]

Its a risk, but what is the bigger risk? Having to face two opponents or having someone that may turn off a handful of your supporters while rallying others to your cause?

If he's ahead after June 3, he should just ignore her. Kerry ignored Kucinich in 2004. If she's losing, yet she continues onward, she's no better than Kucinich.

 

[Marx]

If he's ahead after June 3, he should just ignore her. Kerry ignored Kucinich in 2004. If she's losing, yet she continues onward, she's no better than Kucinich.

Everyone ignores Kucinich Jman.

 

[Matt]

He may avoid being attacked by Clinton supporters, but I have a feeling that a good chunk of his supporters (as well as independents and Republicans) will attack him for putting "that woman" on the ticket. Most independents and Republicans who supported him will not support Clinton, and I highly doubt they will support her inclusion on the ticket as a running mate. That will be a fatal blow to his campaign, not to mention his presidency (if he does manage to get elected).

Republicans? No. But I question how much Republican support he actually has and how much voted for him out of spite for Clinton. Independents, if they really believe in this guy, I doubt it will matter.

If he's ahead after June 3, he should just ignore her. Kerry ignored Kucinich in 2004. If she's losing, yet she continues onward, she's no better than Kucinich.

Only difference is Kucinich had less than 1 % of the Democratic Party supporting him where as Clinton maintains support from 45-50 %. Its kinda hard to ignore that. Especially when you ultimately need what she has (the blue collar vote) to win.

 

[The Senator]

Only difference is Kucinich had less than 1 % of the Democratic Party supporting him where as Clinton maintains support from 45-50 %. Its kinda hard to ignore that. Especially when you ultimately need what she has (the blue collar vote) to win.

He can find someone else who appeals to blue collar voters. Ted Strickland, Ed Rendell, and Kathleen Sebelius all appeal to blue collar voters. He would have a much better shot at not only winning the election, but having a peaceful relationship with his VP, than if he were to put Clinton on the ticket.

 

[Matt]

He can find someone else who appeals to blue collar voters. Ted Strickland, Ed Rendell, and Kathleen Sebelius all appeal to blue collar voters. He would have a much better shot at not only winning the election, but having a peaceful relationship with his VP, than if he were to put Clinton on the ticket.

Still doesn't take away her attacking him through August. She isn't going to lose support. Her support has had more than enough opportunity to jump ship. She will maintain command over at the very least 40 % of the party. And that is best case scenario, more realistic, 45 %. That will be damning for his campaign.

 

[souvlaki]

Still doesn't take away her attacking him through August. She isn't going to lose support. Her support has had more than enough opportunity to jump ship. She will maintain command over at the very least 40 % of the party. And that is best case scenario, more realistic, 45 %. That will be damning for his campaign.

All indications point to the super delegates putting an end to it after the final primary, and they are simply waiting it out out of respect for Clinton. Even if Florida and Michigan are seated, Obama will likely still be in the lead in terms of delegates, and whereas a couple months ago you may have had a point, I think most super delegates want to put an end to it as soon as the final primary ends. If Obama has a delegate lead, and the super delegates don't buy into Clinton's "popular vote" scenario I don't see how Hillary can continue contesting this to the convention if Obama gets past whatever delegate mark is required after the May 31st meeting. At this point, short of a few very very loyal Clinton supporters, and obviously Clinton herself, there are not a lot of people, super delegates included that want this to go past June and I'm sure most of them will likely go public in support of Obama after the final primaries.

So the question is if he passes that marker set by the DNC in June, and Hillary continues fighting it to the convention, will anyone still take her seriously? And will she be selfish enough to continue attacking him even if he does pass that threshold? I certainly hope not.

 

[souvlaki]

ARE YOU SERIOUS??

"Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign accused Sen. Barack Obama's campaign of fanning a controversy over her describing the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy late in the 1968 Democratic primary as one reason she is continuing to run for the presidency."

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-talk/2008/05/clinton_camp_stokes_rfk_flap_b.html?hpid=topnews

There are no words to describe my dislike for this woman now. Obama is on record pretty much defending Clinton, when he could have easily went for the cheap shot.

I cannot believe I ever defended her. Bill must be watching all this, shaking his head, and realizing she is singlehandedly ruining any credibility he built over the last 20 years.

 

[Matt]

All indications point to the super delegates putting an end to it after the final primary, and they are simply waiting it out out of respect for Clinton. Even if Florida and Michigan are seated, Obama will likely still be in the lead in terms of delegates, and whereas a couple months ago you may have had a point, I think most super delegates want to put an end to it as soon as the final primary ends. If Obama has a delegate lead, and the super delegates don't buy into Clinton's "popular vote" scenario I don't see how Hillary can continue contesting this to the convention if Obama gets past whatever delegate mark is required after the May 31st meeting. At this point, short of a few very very loyal Clinton supporters, and obviously Clinton herself, there are not a lot of people, super delegates included that want this to go past June and I'm sure most of them will likely go public in support of Obama after the final primaries.

So the question is if he passes that marker set by the DNC in June, and Hillary continues fighting it to the convention, will anyone still take her seriously? And will she be selfish enough to continue attacking him even if he does pass that threshold? I certainly hope not.

Super delegate votes are not official until the convention and they can continue to jump back and forth until then. I doubt her support will jump ship. They have stuck with her thus far.

 

[souvlaki]

Super delegate votes are not official until the convention and they can continue to jump back and forth until then. I doubt her support will jump ship. They have stuck with her thus far.

But everyone that has any knowledge of the various undeclared super delegates' plans have said that the majority of them are simply waiting out the two weeks out of respect for Clinton but very few of them are actually waivering toward Clinton. If that is true, then I wouldn't be shocked in the least if he passes the magic number shortly after June 3rd. Most superdelegates don't want this to go to the convention, and the DNC will do everything in their power to stop it from happening. Clinton simply does not have the clout she had at the beginning of the primary to keep people from going to Obama before the convention. There may be those loyal to the Clintons', but not so loyal that they are willing to take the Democratic Party down with them.

 

[souvlaki]

Matt, I'm curious... do you actually honestly believe any of the stuff you are saying in regards to super delegates switching back to Clinton, and marching defiantly to the convention in Clinton's defense holding out for a second ballot, or is this just what you are hoping for at this point?

 

[comicgirl]

Still doesn't take away her attacking him through August. She isn't going to lose support. Her support has had more than enough opportunity to jump ship. She will maintain command over at the very least 40 % of the party. And that is best case scenario, more realistic, 45 %. That will be damning for his campaign.

You can't be serious.......when she finally toddles away, support will be right were it should be......she should walk off the stage before she's pulled off

 

[hippie_hunter]

You can't be serious.......when she finally toddles away, support will be right were it should be......she should walk off the stage before she's pulled off

Frankly with the way Clinton is acting she's going to have to get pulled off the stage kicking and screaming.

 

[comicgirl]

Frankly with the way Clinton is acting she's going to have to get pulled off the stage kicking and screaming.

even better..

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

That makes sense,people will look back and see that Clinton was basically dead in the water from when Obama had that 12 state winning streak. I can't imagine Clinton being Obama's vice president. It's too much,Clinton has her own ego and that would only chain Obama down.

 

[Matt]

Matt, I'm curious... do you actually honestly believe any of the stuff you are saying in regards to super delegates switching back to Clinton, and marching defiantly to the convention in Clinton's defense holding out for a second ballot, or is this just what you are hoping for at this point?

I am saying two things.

1) The possibility is there.

2) Super delegates cannot "Force her out," as you claim, as no matter who they say they will vote for, it means jack prior to August. Do you really think Clinton is going to come this far and then quit because an UNOFFICIAL super delegate count has her losing? Especially when there is the chance, no matter how slim that Obama ****s up between June and August and becomes, in fact, unelectable. Clinton's supporters in the Party will not abandon her, no matter what super delegates say, no matter what the media says, no matter what Obama says. So long as she is in the campaign, they will stick by her. If nothing else, her base (which is a HUGE base) has proven to be very loyal. And so long as she keeps her base (which is 45 - 50 % of voters within the party) by her side, Obama will have a major problem and will have to fight a war from two fronts right up until the convention ends. That is not a smart strategy. Appeasment is needed or she will sink him.

 

[souvlaki]

I am saying two things.

1) The possibility is there.

2) Super delegates cannot "Force her out," as you claim, as no matter who they say they will vote for, it means jack prior to August. Do you really think Clinton is going to come this far and then quit because an UNOFFICIAL super delegate count has her losing? Especially when there is the chance, no matter how slim that Obama ****s up between June and August and becomes, in fact, unelectable. Clinton's supporters in the Party will not abandon her, no matter what super delegates say, no matter what the media says, no matter what Obama says. So long as she is in the campaign, they will stick by her. If nothing else, her base (which is a HUGE base) has proven to be very loyal. And so long as she keeps her base (which is 45 - 50 % of voters within the party) by her side, Obama will have a major problem and will have to fight a war from two fronts right up until the convention ends. That is not a smart strategy. Appeasment is needed or she will sink him.

If Obama reaches the theshold required, Clinton has already said she'd drop out. In fact, she's been saying that non-stop for nearly a month now. She has also said for even longer that she doesn't want this to go past June either. She had not once to my knowledge in the last month indicated she's taking this to the convention, infact she's been implying quite the opposite, that she's basically staying in until June 3rd.

Of course that means jack **** coming from her, but if he does pass that number and she still stays in it through the summer attacking the Democratic Party then she can have at it for all I care because at that point the only person she's going to hurt is herself and her husband because everyone will see them for the joke they are.

 

[Matt]

I'll believe it when I see it. She can easily play semantics and say "I meant in pledged delegates. Being as Supers aren't pledged until the convention and there is no winner, why should I quit?" At the very least, she is not going to quit without getting SOMETHING. Be it her campaign debts paid off, a guaranteed position of power (supreme court justice, majority leader, what ever). Until Obama throws her some kind of rope (and I don't think he will) she is going to stick around.

 

[souvlaki]

Also, for someone convinced that all those Republicans voting for Obama in the primary are voting for McCain in the fall, you sure seem to have a lot of faith that a lot of the nutjob Clinton supporters weren't planning on doing the same thing the whole time as well. I'm still not 100% convinced a lot of these Clinton supporters that have suddenly surfaced since Texas ever really intended to vote for her in the first place. Republicans and a lot of independents are voting in the Democratic primary for one reason, because it's pointless for them to vote in the Republican primary.