The Dark Knight The Dark Knight 'Ask A Question'

[Anita18]

Someone earlier in this thread was convinced that he's high on something. I can definitely see it. Some antipsychotic medicine if taken for years on end is supposed to give you weird tics though.

I have weird minor tics but I'm just hyperactively twitchy. Could explain why I don't seem to be able to gain weight though...

Exactly. I think the Joker had plans to off Maroni and Chechen all along. He was just waiting for the right time.

Yup.

 

[BestGirl]

I have weird minor tics but I'm just hyperactively twitchy. Could explain why I don't seem to be able to gain weight though...

We could be twins!

 

[Silverglade]

You know how Joker tells Batman "You know for a while there I really thought you were Dent, the way you threw yourself after her."

I got to wondering when did Joker figure it out? Unless I am missing something, it is when Batman peels out of the alley on the Batpod and Joker says "Now there's a batman." He was chasing Dent in the van and I think up to that point still believed Dent was Batman. Since Joker never found Dent when he crashed the party. And by the comment in the jail, Joke believed that was Harvey Dent jumping after Rachel. Or do you think Joker figured it out when he watches the batmobile smash the dump truck? if so, is that why Joker says "Hmmm." after he sees that?

Any thoughts?

 

[Travesty]

Actually, I think Joker found out when he saw The Tumbler wizz by the semi. In fact, he looks a little shocked and confused, which is why you hear him go, "hmmm" when he sees The Tumbler.

It was like, "oh, I guess Dent isn't Batman....oh well, people will die".

 

[MessenjahMatt]

There's a line that's in the script from that "hmmm" moment, where his goon asks if that's him and Joker says something like "Anyone could be driving that thing". So he's still kind of suspicious perhaps.

 

[hatebox]

Obviously when he saw the tumbler. Then he really started trying to kill Harvey.

 

[TheDarkJoker]

Hmmm..

That's when he finds out!

 

[rashad]

Obviously it's during the Armored Car Chase.

 

[infamous]

I believe this is a resolved matter.

 

[Twofaceguy]

"Oh well Dent isint Batman I'll kill him anyways. Lol!"

 

[Etienne]

Actually, I think Joker found out when he saw The Tumbler wizz by the semi. In fact, he looks a little shocked and confused, which is why you hear him go, "hmmm" when he sees The Tumbler.

It was like, "oh, I guess Dent isn't Batman....oh well, people will die".

I love the idea of him thinking that.

 

[Anita18]

There's a line that's in the script from that "hmmm" moment, where his goon asks if that's him and Joker says something like "Anyone could be driving that thing". So he's still kind of suspicious perhaps.

That was from an earlier draft of the script. Nothing says that the Joker's thoughts had to be the same from then until now.

In the film, the singular, "Hmm" makes it clear that the Joker knows Dent isn't Batman, and that the real Batman is in the Tumbler. I guess they must have determined him being indecisive really didn't add anything to the story.

 

[Team Andino]

That was from an earlier draft of the script. Nothing says that the Joker's thoughts had to be the same from then until now.

In the film, the singular, "Hmm" makes it clear that the Joker knows Dent isn't Batman, and that the real Batman is in the Tumbler. I guess they must have determined him being indecisive really didn't add anything to the story.

Exactly, I thought the same thing the 1st time I saw it, Im glad the line in the script wasn't in the movie.

 

[BestGirl]

alright, this 1's just for fun.

...in a fight between the batman wannabes and jokers thugs who would win?

This makes me think. How do you think the Joker got ahold of Brian Douglas? Do you think Douglas jumped him?

 

[Anita18]

This makes me think. How do you think the Joker got ahold of Brian Douglas? Do you think Douglas jumped him?

He definitely did. Why else would Joker catch him in the fake Batman costume?

But this is about Batman wannabes vs. Joker thugs. Obviously Joker is more competent than any of his goons. Notice that none of them made a move to stop Gordon when he was coming at Joker with a gun. I think they either take directions from Joker or just fool around among themselves. Well, they were probably dissuaded from doing anything more when that guy got zapped by Batman's cowl. t:

 

[BestGirl]

He definitely did. Why else would Joker catch him in the fake Batman costume?

But this is about Batman wannabes vs. Joker thugs. Obviously Joker is more competent than any of his goons. Notice that none of them made a move to stop Gordon when he was coming at Joker with a gun. I think they either take directions from Joker or just fool around among themselves. Well, they were probably dissuaded from doing anything more when that guy got zapped by Batman's cowl. t:

I thought none of them stopped Gordon because they'd all been knocked out during the truck flip. I only remember one goon being out of the truck and he got electrocuted by Batman.

In regards to Brian Douglas, I wish we'd actually been able to see him attack the Joker. It would have been amusing in a sick kind of way.

 

[Anita18]

I thought none of them stopped Gordon because they'd all been knocked out during the truck flip. I only remember one goon being out of the truck and he got electrocuted by Batman

No, you even see one of them come out the back and help another guy crawl out as the Joker starts walking away from the truck. (I did wonder how they worked out the timing for that, LOL.) You can definitely see two of them stand around Batman when he crashes into the truck.

I don't remember if we see the Buster Reeves goon come out, but I believe he appears in the MCU jail so I guess he's alive too.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Did anyone else notice the police lights of the armoured van in the background as Joker stumbles out of the truck?

 

[wootbaby]

I know nerds like yes/no by-the-numbers type of answers but in a way that echos the crescendo of the car chase culminating in the "showdown" on the street between batman joker... the joker's realization that dent =/= batman builds during that centerpiece action scene from the moment the Batmobile shows up to when the joker and batman face off on the street

First of all the Joker is way too cunning to expect that IF batman were Dent that he'd just get into a van and be allowed to be taken to jail so that the Joker could pick him off. EVEN if batman were dent the Joker would expect some "wildcards" along the way. When the batmobile shows up Joker would not be shocked. It'd be a "hmm so this is how we're gonna play it" type of moment.

We've already seen in the opening action sequence that the batmobile can be FULLY AUTOMATED. It can drive to a location, make logic decisions (drive, loiter, intimidate etc). Joker wouldn't automatically assume that batman would be driving the batmobile when it first appears... maybe batman has an accomplice? It doesn't have to be robin, in the first movie we saw GORDON drive it (it could be anyone... or even someone the joker doesn't know). or maybe BATMAN AKA dent is driving it somehow with a gadget from the van? maybe it has an advanced computer that drives itself or homes in on dent's mobile location?

as the scene goes on and the action gets more and more intricate... and the joker's attempts at hijacking the van repeatedly get foiled... the joker starts suspecting it IS batman in the batmobile.. maybe it's not dent.

the moment Joker knows for SURE is when batman busts out in the batpod in the street to have the showdown with joker's semi. joker says something like "NOW there's the batman" and he realizes it 100%.

there's 2 nice things that Nolan does here.

1) just as the action builds in that crucial scene to that climatic showdown on the street so does joker's realization of the batman's identity build at the same time. by the time the final action piece takes place with the flip and the crash so does the joker's realization of the batman also climax. THIS is where he realizes batman's one rule (by sacrificing himself rather than run down and kill joker on the street)

2) once again the joker echos and mimics the batman's actions in the movie. batman "allows himself to be captured" in order to execute his plan to get the joker... the scene ends with the joker "allowing himself to be caught" as Gordon says... to exectue his plan to "get" twoface. from the penthouse scene on and on we see nolan set up the parallel of batman and jokers as in this scene

the most direct answer to the question to when joker realizes dent isn't batman is when he sees batman ON the pod ON the street. but again nolan layers nuance upon nuance and that simple answer isn't the complete answer the entire thing from when the batmobile shows up to the end is important in terms of the joker realizing it

 

[Ace of Knaves]

You make some great points man.

But, how would the Joker know the technical capabilities of the Batmobile/Tumbler? He doesn't know that it has a automated control system and all that.

I think Joker realizes Dent isn't Batman when he first shows up. When he goes "Hmmmm" it's him like "WTF! That's the Batman!" Sorta like Scarecrows "Thats more like it!"

And yea I love the build up and climax of Batman and Joker's show down. I think Joker did want to see Batman gone, but then he realized how much fun could be had with him. "Ohhh you wanna play?". He want's Batman as a play thing, otherwise he will be bored! I love it when he was walking up the street, letting off shots with the machine gun. Purposely aiming at civilians, the person in the first car he shot up has gotta be dead, you see how many bullet holes were in the windscreen!! He is trying to bait Batman.

I think the big question is did Joker really want Batman to kill him? Would he of just stood there and let the Bat-Pod obliterate him? I think so. I think he would be willing to sacrifice his life just to make Batman a murderer. But then, how does J know Batman has a no killing rule at that point? Does he have a epiphany right there?

 

[Anita18]

I think the big question is did Joker really want Batman to kill him? Would he of just stood there and let the Bat-Pod obliterate him? I think so. I think he would be willing to sacrifice his life just to make Batman a murderer. But then, how does J know Batman has a no killing rule at that point? Does he have a epiphany right there?

I think he did. And I think he would have figured out Batman had a no-killing rule, because it'd be fairly obvious that he doesn't want to kill people, especially the fact that he doesn't use firearms. Maroni hints that criminals are aware of that fact too. It's just that people who are not Joker fear pain, which Batman doles out without hesitation.

 

[Batman137]

is charles roven the producer the semi driver? it looks like him

 

[BestGirl]

1) just as the action builds in that crucial scene to that climatic showdown on the street so does joker's realization of the batman's identity build at the same time. by the time the final action piece takes place with the flip and the crash so does the joker's realization of the batman also climax. THIS is where he realizes batman's one rule (by sacrificing himself rather than run down and kill joker on the street)

This is definitely possible, but the Joker's scheme involving Dent and Rachel involved forcing Batman to break his one rule: by saving one, Batman would be dooming the other to death. This plan was clearly thought out well ahead of time, so the Joker must've had some inkling that Batman has a rule against killing. It seems to be common knowledge among criminals.

 

[Drizzle]

In regards to Brian Douglas, I wish we'd actually been able to see him attack the Joker. It would have been amusing in a sick kind of way.

I'm not even sure Brian found The Joker. I think The Joker found him.

 

[Anita18]

is charles roven the producer the semi driver? it looks like him

Oh dear God no. It's an older stunt guy. He drives the semi when it flipped in real life, actually. They show it in the Blu-ray focus point.

I'm not even sure Brian found The Joker. I think The Joker found him.

But Brian must have been out looking for trouble, or else Joker wouldn't have found him in the fake Batsuit. Unless he's got some weird fetish...