Justice League The Darkseid story to go with for the first JL movie! And why Darkseid?

[Batmannerism]

I never said the plot had to be complex. It just needs to have some, any, substance. Let's just take the structure of Justice League: Origins-

6 issues, assuming it's a 130 minute film, that would equal 1 issue to every 22 minutes, roughly. Darkseid shows up at the end of issue 4 for the final battle. That would mean there is 45 minutes of fighting Darkseid/ rescuing Superman for the climax of the film, and then about 5 minutes for the ending. Also, the first around 80 minutes would be heavily focused on Batman and Green Lantern versus Parademon, Batman versus Superman, Batman, Green Lantern and Flash versus Superman, then the interim minutes introducing Aquaman, Wonder Woman and the invasion of Apokolips.

You have a point there, I suppose a bit of backstory for the characters - - perhaps some scenes of the Flash at work, or Aquaman in the sea, would probably be necessary, maybe even Darkseid, who could have some scenes on Apokolips before jumping a boom tube to Earth.

However the storyline would go something more like this

First 20 min: (issue 1) Batman and GL tracking the Parademon, Vic Stone's football game.

next 20 odd minutes: around 5 minutes of GL and Bats v Superman, the arrival of the Flash (and a bit of Flash backstory), Vic and his Dad's tiff, and the arrival of the parademons (Vic stone gets fried).

next 20 odd minutes: Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor's backstory, Wonder Woman eats ice-cream (good time for product placement), Vic Stone's surgery, our heroes kick the snot out of Parademons for about 5 min until Aquaman shows up.

- you probably need to pad that bit out with some interaction between WW and the boys.

hey, we're not doing too bad here, up to an hour,

next 20 minutes, some more Parademon bashing, Vic emerges as Cyborg,
the other 5 JL members are attacked by the army, Cyborg shows up - some scenes of Apokolips. Darkseid arrives.

- hmmm...probably need to draw out this with some interaction, maybe a bit of backstory for JL characters (and maybe some scenes on Apokolips before D shows up).

next 20 minutes: 5 minutes of Darkseid beating the crap out of the JL,
Superman gets fragged, GL gets broken up. Batman's big speech to GL, and the JL rally against Darkseid. Batman goes to Apokolips.

(it's tricky, the Avengers final battle takes about 15-20 min, but the Battle of Smallville in MOS takes about 8 min all up).

I suppose that this is where the story is mostly fighting, with a little bit of scenery chewing in the middle, with Batman's trip to Apokolips.
I can see your point that an additional plotline or some more story/character interaction is necessary.

Here's where you'd be struggling to fill the time out. Although Batman could take an extended tour of Apokolips, and the problem is that our heroes are spending all this time fighting.

The return of Superman and the final fight against Darkseid probably couldn't take more than about 5 minutes without getting a bit boring.

You've got your aftermath scenes, but these aren't likely to be more than
5 minutes or so.

All that actually happens in that story is a whole lot of fighting, there's very little actual character work, when I say literally nothing happens, it's because besides throwing punches, the only thing that happens on a character level is Victor Stone gets mad at his dad.

I disagree with you there, as while I'd agree there's not a lot of story, and lots of fighting, there's still plenty of character interaction and development
- for some characters.
GL and Batman pretty much take up the first issue, with a little bit of fighting and some investigation/getting to know and dislike each other. There's plenty of interaction between the characters, but you are right that after Darkseid arrives it all pretty much descends into fighting - bar Batman's speech to GL, which is probably the best part of the series.

This of course feeds into Batman having to get GL to pull his head out of his ass (after Darkseid kicks it severely) and start working with the team.
To be honest, that was more significant character development than in the entire Avengers movie - even Nick Fury's speech after Coulson's "death"

Superman probably gets the least character development, he doesn't say much, just sort of smacks GL and Bats around until Parademons show up for him to bash. Actually Aquaman possibly gets even less, he just shows up, controls some Sharks, and stabs things.

Avengers had several scenes that had the characters actually develop (not massively) in a neutral environment. They actually had to converse, something sorely lacking in Justice League: Origins.

Still disagree there, as I didn't really see any character development in Avengers, just arguing mostly. Whereas the JL characters particularly, Batman, GL and Flash do converse, quite a bit. I would say that the scenes they do have together actually achieve more than the shared scenes in Avengers.

Justice League origins didn't even have enough story to fill a 75 minute animated feature. Why do you think it would fare better with double the runtime?

While I disagree with you on the character development, I can see your point about the story being too light to carry a 2 hour epic superhero film. I still think Origins/War could be the basis of a very enjoyable live action JL film. I suppose if they want to make a 90 minute film, there probably enough there, but for 120 min a couple more plot threads and serious story points would be necessary.

 

[Lord]

I'm all for using Darkseid in the same way he was used in that story, but why are you so interested in seeing it adapted in live-action? It's far from the best JL story, and it was very weak. By the way, arguing is part of character development, we saw the characters in Avengers get their fair due (most of them), all of them had the opportunity to interact with the main bad guy in one way or another.

I wasn't a big fan of The Avengers, but if there's something it didn't lack, it was definitelly character development. JL: Origin was just a Michael Bay type of story without the insulting jokes.

And keeping the begining of Batman & GL meet and go fight Superman? Why? Those 2 characters got the most focus because Batman is the most popular hero right now and the writer of the comic simply loves Hal Jordan. And then there is also the factor of Superman and Batman already meeting in MoS sequel.

The comic also had to be fast, so the characters were exactly where they were supposed to be at the right time.

Yeah, I´ll recommend Superman: Birthright. When you read it you´ll be like, ohh this is Man of steel. So it´s actually very interesting in that apect. It gives you a lot to go on if you wanna figure out what Batman vs Superman will be like with Lex and all. Lemme tell you, they´ve taken A LOT from that story, came as a total wtf when I read this a couple months back.

Anyhow, It´s a good piece even if it´s not as captivating as All-star Superman or Red son (which both are the best solo Superman I´ve ever read), but it´s definitely as thought through as them and on par with them in most other aspects. READ

I´m a bit of a grammar nazi you know. One that does a trillion mistakes himself, which doesn´t make any sense, but it makes far more sense than sence!

I already oun Birthright

Smallville made me interested and from there i started to read more Superman comics, while i now prefer Golden Age and Morrison's Superman, i remember the comic being quite good. Though i saw more of Earth One in The Man of Steel than Birthright.

Sorry about grammar, English isn't my first language and sometimes the autocorrect takes control o my text

Didn't read Red Son yet though.

 

[Batmannerism]

Smallville made me interested and from there i started to read more Superman comics, while i now prefer Golden Age and Morrison's Superman, i remember the comic being quite good. Though i saw more of Earth One in The Man of Steel than Birthright.

Sorry about grammar, English isn't my first language and sometimes the autocorrect takes control o my text

Didn't read Red Son yet though.

Dude, you should read Red Son, it's terrific - it's Superman, not as a hero, but not a villain either, he's a benevolent dictator, sort of "killing you with kindness" anyway, read it.

You should check out the work John Byrne and Jerry Ordway did on Superman back in the 80's, now those were some fun stories, great artwork, and Superman wasn't as powerful, and had to use his brains (from time to time) - he nearly gets killed in his first regular appearance, by Metallo.
Try reading "Man of Steel" the John Byrne reboot of Superman from 1986, it breathed new life into the character right up until "Birthright"

In terms of today's stuff that's good, in case you haven't read it.
I recommend.

- Secret Origin (Geoff Johns) just IMO, but wayyyy better than Birthright (yawn)

- All Star Superman, oh wait if you've already read it, pure awesomeness.

and Morrison's work on Action Comics (introducing the 52 Superman, also great ).

- Last Son (Geoff Johns and Richard Donner)

- Superman: Brainiac, again Johns' work, but it's a good story. Definitey the best Brainiac story.

Johns is best with simple, but still good, stories. He fleshes them out with interesting characters and great character interactions.

I agree that Johns didn't do Superman justice in JLrigins, but I'm okay with that, as I appreciated the focus on the Batman-GL relationship.

Anyway, enjoy reading that stuff, it's all fantastic.

 

[Mightyally]

Those are some great advice!

 

[Batmannerism]

Those are some great advice!

Thanks Dude ! Kind of you to say.

I've been a Superman fan since I was a little kid watching
the old black and white TV show. While Byrne's Superman is my favourite, some of this century's stories, especially Johns, really "get" the character and what he's about. Morrison's stories are terrific, but in terms of his depiction of Superman himself, it's not my favourite (it's still good, but I think Johns' is better). So I suppose that Morrison is the better storyteller, but Johns' characters are easier to relate to (especially in Superman:Brainiac).

I guess some of those 80's stories are my favourite, because I was younger then, and more impressionable, whereas some of today's stories don't have the same charm or the warmth.

If you're an Xmen fan, dude I can tell you that the best Xmen stories take place between 1979 and 1990. Even though Jim Lee's art was fantastic looking, when he came along, the stories really lost something - I stopped caring about the characters (probably because Chris Claremont left, he was the best ever Xmen writer, because he understood the characters better than anyone.

Sadly, after that there seemed to be a million different X books out there,
X Force, New Mutants, Uncanny X-Men, Excalibur (which was pretty damn good actually) X Factor, and just X-Men. To my mind, Marvel lost interest in telling good stories, about characters we can like, and became a lot more interested in making lots of money off the X-men brand.
Back in 1980, the Xmen were like a family, they argued like a family, stuck up for each other like a family, and it was so well written that when Jean died, you, as a reader, felt their pain and loss. I still think bringing back
Jean Grey was the biggest mistake Marvel ever made, and totally unnecessary. but that's all just IMO.


- btw, Claremont and Byrne worked together on Xmen in 1980-1981, now that was really the high point of the book ( to prove my point, the Xmen movie coming out this year is based on a story from Byrne and Claremont's time in charge.

Some people don't like Byrne, but back then in the 80's whatever he touched turned to gold IMO. Walter Simonson did the same thing for Thor.

Sorry, I got onto an X-rant there and I've gone wayyyyy off topic, as this is supposed to be a JL thread, and I think I was supposed to mention Darkseid somewhere in there.
On that note, there's certainly something to be said for the more humourous JL stories that Giffen, DeMatteis and Maguire wrote/drew for
Justice League international. Grant Morrison did some great work on JL too.

Back to Darkseid.....hmmmm, my favourite Darkseid story is the "Great Darkness Saga" but of course that's the Legion of Superheroes story, and takes place in the 30th century.

I read final crisis, but to be honest the whole "Boss Dark Side" didn't do much for me. Maybe that's why I think JL origins is good source material for a film - because a JL film should be much more about the JL characters then about the villain. IMO the Avengers get upstaged by Loki all the time, he steals every scene (except when the Hulk smashes him ).

Who knows what form Darkseid will appear in a film ? I guess when we get more details about which DC writers are working on it, as creative consultants, we'll get a better idea.

 

[Mightyally]

Man I´d love it if you could tell me your favourite X-Men stories because that´s basically the only big thing I haven´t read. It´s that and GotG.

What is the best X-men graphic novels/arcs/stories you have read? Top 5.
What is the best Thor graphic novels/arcs/stories you have read? Top 3.
What is the best JL graphic novels/arcs/stories you have read except Kingdom Come and Tower of Babel? Top 3.

Marvel
I´ve read a lot but far from all of Captain Marvel, Avengers, Iron Man, Adam Warlock and much more (late silver age and bronze age), all and every Thanos appearence without exception until Thor v2, Thor (Simonson run + God of Thunder + Thanos related + couple of novels i.e. T&L:Blood Brothers), Spider-Man (early spectacular and later amazing for some reason) and some more modern avengers stories as well as the more famous Ultron stories like Ultron unlimited.

DC
I´ve been keeping good track of the new 52. I actually own, without any exception, every oficially related comicbook from the Forever Evil event, I have also read N52 Green Lantern and the other 3 corps series, N52 Wonder Woman and N52 Earth 2 as well as Injustice: Gods among us + N52 Superman unchained, N52 Superman & Wonder woman.

As for older Superman comics, I have read all the "great ones" which is just hand picked arcs or mini series or novels people have rated as the best Superman stuff ever made. I have no knowledge of the old or new comic series as a whole.

Have you read Ultron Unlimited or Thanos Quest?

 

[Batmannerism]

Man I´d love it if you could tell me your favourite X-Men stories because that´s basically the only big thing I haven´t read. It´s that and GotG.

What is the best X-men graphic novels/arcs/stories you have read? Top 5.

Cheers dude,

I'm really not that much in tune with today's comics, other than a few titles, as I don't seriously collect/read them anymore. But what I can tell you about is some of the best stories from the past. Proof that these stories are great comes from the fact that elements of them show up in the movies made about the characters.

I'm a bit out of touch with Xmen today, I really stopped reading them seriously after 1992, I only pick them up once in a while.

But IMO the best 5 classic X-men stories would be

1) The Dark Phoenix Saga, that Uncanny X-Men #128 -138, back then there was only one X-Men team, and they were like a family. As a reader, you feel their pain - I still think bringing back Jean Grey was a huge mistake.


2) Graphic Novel = X Men:God Loves, Man kills (1982, but republished recently). ( lot of the 2nd X-Men movie came from this graphic novel).
If you only ever read 1 Xmen story ever, this would be the one, because it captures everything the X Men are about.


3) X-Men/Teen Titans (from 1982) it's awesome, the artwork is brilliant, , done by Walt Simonson, and it's the one meeting between these two super-teams - fits in really well with the Dark Phoenix saga.


4) Days of Future Past (Uncanny Xmen 141 and 142) how do we know it's great ? because this year's X-Men film is based on it.


5) The Age of Apocalypse, the storyline is good, but it's really hard to keep on top of what's happening because the story happens in several
different comic books at the same time. ugh !

I read a few of Joss Whedon's stories about Breakworld, which were great.
My all time favourite single issue of X-Men is # 150, a double sized issue in which they fight Magneto

Thor

I've had lots of arguments about Thor today vs older versions of Thor,
anyway, again I haven't read a lot of today's Thor. What I have read was okay, but not as good as Simonson's work.

Anyway, Simonson's run on Thor from 1983-1986. During that time
he ran some amazing stories that introduced Beta Ray Bill, Malekith the Accursed, the Casket of Winters, Kurse, and an apocalyptic battle against Surtur. All kinds of Crazy stuff happened, Thor got turned into a Frog at one point, beat the Goddess of Death in a fight, and Beta Ray Bill beat Thor and was able to lift Mjolnir.

What makes Simonson so great is that he both wrote and drew the book. His artwork is very distinctive and he planned stories in advance that lasted over several issues. Every issue was exciting, and when you got to the end of the story, as a reader, you felt satisfied.

What is the be{st JL graphic novels/arcs/stories you have read except Kingdom Come and Tower of Babel? Top 3.

Kingdom Come is pretty cool, I really enjoyed that. If you liked that, you'd probably enjoy the "Justice" series from 2005-2007.

Otherwise, as far as the Justice League goes (this is not in any order)

1) JLA: Pain of the Gods, a good story, and a different angle on the JLA,
because it's about their failures rather than their victories.

2) JLA, probably Grant Morrison's New World Order storyline

3) JLrigins, I liked it because the heroes aren't saints, some of them are jerks, but they have to get it together to beat Darkseid. It's not the best story ever, but there are some great character moments.

Also, back in the late 1980's Keith Giffen did some great work on the JL, who split into Justice League International, and Justice League Europe,
those stories were well drawn and had a lot of humour, great fun to read.

Probably one of the best storylines of all time was "Crisis on Infinite Earths" from 1985 which changed the whole DC universe. It was a terrific story, featured the death of major characters ( the Flash stayed dead for 23 years ). "Infinite Crisis" isn't too bad, but I found "Final Crisis" a bit much.

I kind of stayed away from the Thanos quest stories, especially the infinity gauntlet, so I can't say much about that.

If you liked Adam Warlock, Jim Starlin did a great run on Warlock back in the late 1970's- early 80's, the art and storytelling were waayyyyy ahead of the time. And if you like that, you might really enjoy Jim Starlin's "Dreadstar", which is part Star Wars- part Super-hero story, it's awesome.

I've never really been an Avengers fan, although I did enjoy John Byrne's run on West Coast Avengers, especially when he brought in the hillarious Great Lakes Avengers. So, I can'(int say much about great Avengers stories.

One terrific story I remember from back in 1984-85 was "Secret Wars" basically, it was all the top characters (both heroes and bad-guys, including the X Men, Avengers and Fantastic Four) get chucked on a planet in some distant corner of the Galaxy, by God, and told to fight it out.
Simple story but really fun to read. The sequel, Secret Wars II was crap, don't even bother with it.

Anyway, I've always found that if a story is too hard to keep up with or costs too much to follow, it's usually not worth it - and often simple stories are the best, if the characters are well written (and great art helps too).

But all this stuff I've told you about is stuff that works for me, and everybody's different.
You might read some of it and love it, and hate other bits. But, whatever you decide to read, hope you enjoy it. Cheers.

 

[Mightyally]

Yes, yes and yes. Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. As for Thor, we seem to agree.

If you ever decide to read Age of Apocalypse again: http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/time/showquestion.asp?faq=13&fldAuto=58

Yeah I´ve read the Warlock stories! Hm I´ll check out Dreadstar. You and me both. West Coast Avengers FTW! I´ll read everything you recommended, it will just take me some time. I´m sure I´ll at least like it. Thx man. Awesome stuff. There is an interesting Ultron story in those West Coast Avengers if you remember. Well I recommend you to read Thanos Quest 1-2, especially now that he is a part of the MCU!

 

[Wildcard]

I think we'll get Darkseid in part two, although something tells me they won't be able to resist giving him some sort of cameo appearance in the first JL movie. I'd like them to go with a Darkseid akin to his Pre-Crisis days (with a more New 52-esque appearance). He needs to be presented as a legitimate threat since he's (arguably) the best villain in the DC universe.

With that being said, I'd like to see Apokolips in all its glory...with Orion, Granny Goodness, Highfather, etc. being introduced.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

So I have two questions:

1. Why Darkseid?

Cause he's the perfect cliche villain for the role.
Big bad from outer space coming to invade Earth.

2. Which Story? (Existing or made up)

Like every movie, made up.

I think I'd prefer to see DarkSeid saved for a phase 2 or phase 3 film.

 

[Wildcard]

The reason I want to see Darkseid is because he isn't a cliched villain, he's a powerful force that requires all of the DC universe's major heroes to tackle. And if they go with the Anti-Life equation angle, I think it'll further separate him from the pack.

Really, the powers that be should be doing everything possible to make sure Darkseid comes across as unique & interesting as his comic book counterpart. If anything about him is cliche it'll diminish the impact of the character...kinda like how in the New 52 comics he talks considerably less and is more of a brute.

 

[Lord]

While he needs to be stronger than that incarnation, his Animated universe counterpart had the perfect demeanor

[YT]bw68uJ8DREg[/YT]

Problem is that he's the kind of villain that will just comes across as boring and one dimensional if not handled properly. Thanos himself has been very underwhelming so far.

Either way, there's not need to keep Darkseid for later, he's not raly the be all end all DC boss, after him you can still go into a multitude of directions and threats even bigger than him.

 

[Wildcard]

I think pretty much any villain will come across as boring if they're mishandled. But you're right, there are more powerful threats than Darkseid but he stands out because of his personality, motivations & just being a sheer badass.

And technically speaking, if you think about it if Doomsday is actually the used the moment he shows up we'll have already see a villain that's above Darkseid in power. Funny to think about.

 

[Fallen Angel]

While he needs to be stronger than that incarnation, his Animated universe counterpart had the perfect demeanor

[YT]bw68uJ8DREg[/YT]

Problem is that he's the kind of villain that will just comes across as boring and one dimensional if not handled properly. Thanos himself has been very underwhelming so far.

Either way, there's not need to keep Darkseid for later, he's not raly the be all end all DC boss, after him you can still go into a multitude of directions and threats even bigger than him.

There's no really bigger than him, one to rival him which is the Anti Monitor. But you'd need to do a Crisis on Infinite Earth's storyline.

DC consider Darkseid the big bad of their universe anyway.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The Anti-Monitor has been reintroduced. He wants to kill Darkseid.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

The reason I want to see Darkseid is because he isn't a cliched villain, he's a powerful force that requires all of the DC universe's major heroes to tackle. And if they go with the Anti-Life equation angle, I think it'll further separate him from the pack.

Not exactly something big and unusual.
If they don't include the New Gods, his story will lack something special.

 

[Zionite1]

I think the Justice League shouldnt go cosmic right now.

Not looking forward to yet another Alien invasion.And I feel Darkseid needs to be built up.

If They are Smart they will go Chronal.Thats right Timetravel. Beat Marvel to the Punch before they go Chronal with Kang the Conqueror.

JL1 will have a Villain from the Future send enemies to the Present.
JL2 will have the Justice League going to Future to defeat this Futuristic Villain.

My Villain Choice are Braniac 13 or Imperiex.

 

[JOE]

2016 Apocalypse
2017 Darkseid
2018 Thanos

It depends... Thanos might not show up in 2018 until the end, or maybe not at all. He'll definitely be in 2019 (Part II). Or he could very well be heavily involved in both. I think 2017 is too soon for Darkseid, save the trump card until the end of the game.

 

[Wildcard]

Not exactly something big and unusual.
If they don't include the New Gods, his story will lack something special.

Indeed, it's a more than crucial element to his background.

And how powerful should they make Darkseid? Do we go for Pre-Crisis levels or something lower? Personally, I'm thinking as strong as they can make him without it coming off as ridiculous would be best. It'd be nice to have Darkseid pulling off numerous "holy s*%#!" moments.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Grant Morrison version, I'll accept nothing less.


Well, I will, I've already accepted it with every other character. But I won't like it as much.