The Guns thread - Part 1

[Hotwire]

No said we should ignore anything. It points out how you guys conveniently ignore "other things" which actually account for more deaths each year. Every year.
So you can ban things you dont like.

Comparing those things to guns is a bit apples to oranges. Yes, there are things that kill more people than guns but, how many are murders? And, on top of that, how many of those things are so willingly ignored by those who could do something about it? You don't see politicians touting, "thoughts and prayers," for opioid deaths, flu deaths, even vehicle accidents. No, they jump up and say how things need to be done and no one really disagrees. But guns, "thoughts and prayers."

 

[B]

Obviously banning the AR15 and other similar guns won't solve the problem on its own. People on terrorist watch lists pass background checks, FFS. So there are a few more things they need to be done. But no one needs an AR15 and so that's a decent starting point.

Everything just needs tightened up across the board. The checks need to be more thorough than whatever they currently are & there needs to be a governing body that is constantly reviewing those checks yearly to ensure you both still need & are fit to own a weapon.

Ban certain weapons/attachments, like the AR 15, or if banning them is out of the question, then make them harder to get. Maybe you have to have possessed a gun license/permit for say 10 years before you can own certain types of weapons. Increase taxes on those weapons & the longer you've held a license/permit, the less tax you'll have to pay.

In the UK & I believe it's the case in several places in Europe, you can legally own certain guns, but to even own one of those guns you need a valid reason for actually owning it & what you plan to do with it. Something like that could be applied in the US in which if you want to own one of the many available weapons, you need to give a sufficient reason for wanting that particular weapon.

 

[Mike5575]

I can't wait until this myth is done away with.

It's that pesky comma , isn't it? It gets people everytime. Except for every other amendment of course.

 

[Donner]

I didnt say stricter gun laws werent necessary. They are.

Made it pretty clear I agree with that point above.

But you should try to understand how people might say or perceive your side to have no interest in a solution you scream to the high heavens how about evil the NRA/Gun lobby is are while ignoring psychotropic drug peddlers who've bought your govt and are compliant in all this.



BTW, despite those preventions you listed, those accidents/deaths still happen.

All Im saying is the mass shooting thing going on is a multifaceted problem, and there is no simple solution. A AR ban isnt going to solve the problem, you can do just as much damage with semi pistols. Limit the magazines, ok... you can tape 3 mgs together and have access to 21-30 rapid fire rounds. ARs are banned, ok these bans tend to over look garande style weapons. Ban garands, then you have lever actions.
Ban everything but six shooters, someone will walk into a mall or school with a bag full of auto loaders strapped with 4 pistols.

Youre not going to find a solution banning guns. Mental health has to be addressed. People walking around in schools and on the street on mind altering drugs needs to be addressed. Politicians who are slaves to corporations needs to be addressed. Social Media/ Tech companies being obligated to inform law enforcement when users make threats against the public needs to be adddressed, updating mental health laws so LE can pre emptively detain mentally unstable people who have made threats against the public needs to be addressed... and so on.

Wow, everything except banning certain types of guns that serve no purpose in society at all. But sure, the anti gun crowd is the problem.

The "mind alerting" drugs part makes me laugh.

I'm sure Kinder Surprise is more of a problem.

 

[conan69]

^ok. Glad you got a laugh out of it.
Most all of these shooters are guys with mental issues on psychotropic drugs.
If you'd like I can introduce you to my neighbor. Ex law enforcement with no history of mental issues, took one adderall... one... and ended up in the ER and psych ward after attemping to put gun in his mouth.

Ask his wife how funny that episode was. I assure you, it wasn't funny.

But please, go on blaming guns and only guns while ignoring the rest of the problem.


PS... learn how to read. Every time I respond to you I have to correct you...In the post above I made the argument for banning everything except 6 shooters and how it still wont solve the mass shooting problem because people will always find another way. At no time did I say ban everything except ARs.

I'm sure Kinder Surprise is more of a problem.

(speechless and in awe...smh)

 

[chaseter]

People want to abdicate responsibility and blame others for everything, guns included. Mental health is the main issue. Access to murder weapons is a close and important second. People that lose empathy and impulse control (ie every mass shooter ever) have mental issues be it from chemical imbalances or mind altering drugs. It’s an abnormal response. Normal people don’t want to shoot up as many people as they can. For people to say it’s not about mental illness but about guns is ludicrous.

 

[LTuser]

1. I was taking about gun sales. But, you knew that and just wanted to troll me

2. I asked anyone to defend why these would be needed. You just have critiques.

On 1) no i wasn't trolling you. On 2, if you saw i was generally agreeing with you that most of them WERE stupid..

 

[Donner]

People want to abdicate responsibility and blame others for everything, guns included. Mental health is the main issue. Access to murder weapons is a close and important second. People that lose empathy and impulse control (ie every mass shooter ever) have mental issues be it from chemical imbalances or mind altering drugs. It’s an abnormal response. Normal people don’t want to shoot up as many people as they can. For people to say it’s not about mental illness but about guns is ludicrous.

And every other western country is somehow immune to mental health issues?

 

[Hotwire]

On 1) no i wasn't trolling you.
On 2, if you saw i was generally agreeing with you that most of them WERE stupid..

So, if you weren't trolling, you were at the last being obtuse on purpose and avoiding the point I was making. It's really pointless discussing anything with you.

 

[B]

People want to abdicate responsibility and blame others for everything, guns included. Mental health is the main issue. Access to murder weapons is a close and important second. People that lose empathy and impulse control (ie every mass shooter ever) have mental issues be it from chemical imbalances or mind altering drugs. It’s an abnormal response. Normal people don’t want to shoot up as many people as they can. For people to say it’s not about mental illness but about guns is ludicrous.

It is a mental health issue, but it's more about the readily available access to a varying array of deadly firearms that is the 1st & foremost main problem.

It's not like other developed countries don't have mental health problems because they do, but they don't have any near the same mass killing problems because they have competent & reasonable gun laws/regulations in place.

 

[conan69]

They also dont have a govt and health care industry beholden to pharmaceutical companies.

People always like to talk about how great health care is in other countries when it comes to costs but seem to conveniently drop/forget that argument when it come to something like mental health.

25% of the homeless are mentally ill, 1 in 5 americans takes psychotropic drugs... where are the monitoring systems that were in place decades ago? Theyre gone because we've become a drug em (and get my kickback) and pat em on the back on their way out the door society. The pharmaceutical lobby owns the congress and senate more than the NRA. Theres more $ (quote: "A searing new report from the Associated Press claims that the makers of opioid painkillers, the dangerous drugs at the center of the tragic overdose crisis, outspent the US gun lobby on lobbying and campaign contributions by 8:1"). <----Ive seen plenty of anti NRA (who I have no love for) comments on here, but not many anti Big Pharm lobbying commments, which to me says denial of a root cause. Because you'd rather rage against guns.

This disclaimer was on a paper talking about childhood SSRIs. Their quotes on he words suicide related, not mine.... "Deliberate monitoring for efficacy and adverse effects, especially for “suicide-related” thoughts and behavioural adverse effects (e.g. activation events) is critically important"

Really.. wow..thanks. Maybe children shoudlnt be on anti-depressants.


https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/people-taking-psychiatric-drugs/



People would rather take drugs than exercise, deal with their problems/life, take healthier alternatives. Studies show exercise to be as efficient to reducing depression as prozac. Wanna wager what the % of docs who prescribe prozac or wellbutrin compared to a gym membership is?


Dont even get started on the coddled generation who are incapable of communicating except in social media (my 20 yr old niece just broke up with her boyfriend through Facebook), needs hot cocoa, play-doh, cancelled mid terms and safe spaces to deal with their disappointments in life (like presidential elections), and thinks the world revolves around them and their feelings.

Here... take these.










For my next rant, Ill get into how my brother in laws brother in law (yes you read that right) who retired at 40 because he made millions in the food industry straight out told me we're being poisoned by food companies and there are literally thousands of chemicals clashing in our bodies constantly (uhhh cancer) that are actually altering our DNA over decades of use.
Which is I live in the sticks (and have a AR for protection) and grow as much of my own food as possible.

Whats that have to do with anything? I agree the state of things is dire. Govt has been hijacked, is corrupt and incompetent and doesnt care to help or represent people (they divy out crumbs). They represent themselves and their masters. How much mental health overhaul or changes do you expect knowing that these guys literally own the congress and senate.. Ive said this here previously.
Guys, youd need some SERIOUS govt reforms to change any of this. Taking away guns, without dealing with mental and overall health reform isnt going to accomplish anything.
These mass/school shootings are a recent thing... ask yourself why.

I dont think I have any more to say on this.

 

[Donner]

Thank god.

Your rant about food is especially annoying and completely incorrect as the number one factor for cancer is age. There is zero evidence that our food is changing our DNA. What nonsense.

Also, other countries have mental health issues and Canada doesn't have the best record dealing with it. Yet our gun deaths are tiny compared to the US.

You can rant all day about how silly younger generations are and "Big Pharma" and food (for some strange reason), but that doesn't change your gun laws or the fact that AR15s are sold to teenagers (that you seem to hold such little regard for).

 

[conan69]

This will be my last response to you.
I clearly... repeat clearly.. repeat clearly.... said Im all for gun law reform, as well as mental health reform.. as well as lobbying reform... as well as any reform of laws on teh books that help deal with this issue. I ran down a brief list previously that you failed to understand. Can you read or not?

I didnt say other countries dont have mental health issues, I said other countries dont have govt that is beholden to those corporations and have a system of health care that thrives on pills for a answer to EVERYTHING. "Other countries" also plainly outlaw dangerous ingredients commonly found in american food. Google exists, use it.

oh. BTW, a simple 2 second search brought up these...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_YWwCCXGPk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB8Qo8DLnvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmsgnKnzGl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyQY8a-ng6g

 

[Lighthouse]

They also dont have a govt and health care industry beholden to pharmaceutical companies.

People always like to talk about how great health care is in other countries when it comes to costs but seem to conveniently drop/forget that argument when it come to something like mental health.

25% of the homeless are mentally ill, 1 in 5 americans takes psychotropic drugs... where are the monitoring systems that were in place decades ago? Theyre gone because we've become a drug em (and get my kickback) and pat em on the back on their way out the door society. The pharmaceutical lobby owns the congress and senate more than the NRA. Theres more $ (quote: "A searing new report from the Associated Press claims that the makers of opioid painkillers, the dangerous drugs at the center of the tragic overdose crisis, outspent the US gun lobby on lobbying and campaign contributions by 8:1"). <----Ive seen plenty of anti NRA (who I have no love for) comments on here, but not many anti Big Pharm lobbying commments, which to me says denial of a root cause. Because you'd rather rage against guns.

This disclaimer was on a paper talking about childhood SSRIs. Their quotes on suicidal related, not mine.... "Deliberate monitoring for efficacy and adverse effects, especially for “suicide-related” thoughts and behavioural adverse effects (e.g. activation events) is critically important"

Really.. wow..thanks. Maybe children shoudlnt be on anti-depressants.


https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/people-taking-psychiatric-drugs/



People would rather take drugs than exercise, deal with their problems/life, take healthier alternatives. Studies show exercise to be as efficient to reducing depression as prozac. Wanna wager what the % of docs who prescribe prozac or wellbutrin compared to a gym membership is?


Dont even get started on the coddled generation who are incapable of communicating except in social media (my 20 yr old niece just broke up with her boyfriend through Facebook), needs hot cocoa, play-doh, cancelled mid terms and safe spaces to deal with their disappointments in life (like presidential elections), and thinks the world revolves around them and their feelings.

Here... take these.










For my next rant, Ill get into how my brother in laws brother in law (yes you read that right) who retired at 40 because he made millions in the food industry straight out told me we're being poisoned by food companies and there are literally thousands of chemicals clashing in our bodies constantly (uhhh cancer) that are actually altering our DNA over decades of use.
Which is I live in the sticks (and have a AR for protection) and grow as much of my own food as possible.

Whats that have to do with anything? I agree the state of things is dire. Govt has been hijacked, is corrupt and incompetent and doesnt care to help or represent people (they divy out crumbs). They represent themselves and their masters. How much mental health overhaul or changes do you expect knowing that these guys literally own the congress and senate.. Ive said this here previously.
Guys, youd need some SERIOUS govt reforms to change any of this. Taking away guns, without dealing with mental and overall health reform isnt going to accomplish anything.
These mass/school shootings are a recent thing... ask yourself why.

I dont think I have any more to say on this.

I am so sick of this idiotic shaming of people who take anti-depressants as weak and lazy. Anti-depressants save lives. Do doctors sometimes improperly prescribe it? Yeah, but that doesn't mean it hasn't benefited thousands of people. Depression is no joke. Yes, exercise absolutely helps, but this asinine idea that depressed people are lazy, weak willed people who refuse to get their lives together is pure BS.

 

[Donner]

This will be my last response to you.
I clearly... repeat clearly.. repeat clearly.... said Im all for gun law reform, as well as mental health reform.. as well as lobbying reform... as well as any reform of laws on teh books that help deal with this issue. I ran down a brief list previously that you failed to understand. Can you read or not?

I didnt say other countries dont have mental health issues, I said other countries dont have govt that is beholden to those corporations and have a system of health care that thrives on pills for a answer to EVERYTHING. "Other countries" also plainly outlaw dangerous ingredients commonly found in american food. Google exists, use it.

oh. BTW, a simple 2 second search brought up these...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_YWwCCXGPk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB8Qo8DLnvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmsgnKnzGl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyQY8a-ng6g

Oh YouTube! What a great source of quality information. I'll get right on watching that.

Right after I watch the Flat Earth series.

By the way, each video you posted comes from blogs and Natural News websites, neither of which are scientific or peer reviewed. In other words, conspiracy crap.


Gun reform should include banning certain types of weapons that serve no purpose in society.

 

[conan69]

I am so sick of this idiotic shaming of people who take anti-depressants as weak and lazy. Anti-depressants save lives. Do doctors sometimes improperly prescribe it? Yeah, but that doesn't mean it hasn't benefited thousands of people. Depression is no joke. Yes, exercise absolutely helps, but this asinine idea that depressed people are lazy, weak willed people who refuse to get their lives together is pure BS.

^ I never said that either. Yes some people need medication. Some people have serious illnesses. Did you skip over the sentence where I said 25% of the homeless have mental illness issues?
I never said otherwise or marginalized those people problems.
In fact the opposite, because its become common practice to precribe drugs and send people on their way.. so they ARE NOT receiving the proper managment they should be getting. I said this pretty clearly above.

I said the american health industry has become complacent in precribing pills for everything. I just said this again 2 posts up.

Using the neighbors episode as a example. He was prescribed adderall becuase he was hainv gsomme "brain fog" issues. He was presibed adderall out of the gate.. no testing, no nothing. Having trouble concentrating, heres some addderall. He almost put a gun in his mouth.

I didnt say people dont need help. I didnt say people dont need medication. I did say we shouldnt just drug and abandon people sending them on their way.

I said the system has become so corrupt, inefffective and skewed so that pills have become the answer to everything, and alot of people who are on powerful medications shouldnt be.
BTW, Im prone to depression and have been all my life.

(I wrote more on the drug/food combo.. deleted, why bother)


FFS

 

[LTuser]

It is a mental health issue, but it's more about the readily available access to a varying array of deadly firearms that is the 1st & foremost main problem.

It's not like other developed countries don't have mental health problems because they do, but they don't have any near the same mass killing problems because they have competent & reasonable gun laws/regulations in place.

BUT is it just guns OR mental health, that's the problem? OR could it be more something in society? I remember listening to my dad go over stories, while showing pics of HIM and two of my uncles in their High school, all dressed out in their NROTC uniforms with their polished guns in hand.. And heard many similar, where there were guns on people/in cars around schools. YET NO shootings. All cause back in those days (the 50-70s) there was more RESPECT for authority, more discipline.
Then we key to the late 80s and early 90s, where cause of political correctness, and the era of "Dr Spock kid rearing" kids are starting to run amuck more, discipline has gone, and parents are no longer trying to be their kids PARENTS but their friends.. Add to that, the over abundance of kids being treated for ADD/ADHD via medication.
And that is roughly when we started all this mass shooting mess.

 

[B]

BUT is it just guns OR mental health, that's the problem? OR could it be more something in society? I remember listening to my dad go over stories, while showing pics of HIM and two of my uncles in their High school, all dressed out in their NROTC uniforms with their polished guns in hand.. And heard many similar, where there were guns on people/in cars around schools. YET NO shootings. All cause back in those days (the 50-70s) there was more RESPECT for authority, more discipline.
Then we key to the late 80s and early 90s, where cause of political correctness, and the era of "Dr Spock kid rearing" kids are starting to run amuck more, discipline has gone, and parents are no longer trying to be their kids PARENTS but their friends.. Add to that, the over abundance of kids being treated for ADD/ADHD via medication.
And that is roughly when we started all this mass shooting mess.

It isn't just guns & it isn't just mental health, it's a combination of both. As I said in an earlier post, each & every country has a percentage of citizens that are suffering from various mental health problems, some of which are on drugs to help counteract those issues as well just the same.. yet with the exception of the US none of them has the same volume or severity of some of these mass shootings & that is down to how easily accessible & acquired firearms are in the US.

 

[chaseter]

And every other western country is somehow immune to mental health issues?

No Country is immune to issues. How do other Countries treat mental health? Is there a cultural stigma to being mentally unhealthy? Are pharma companies allowed to lobby and contribute to political campaigns? Being a killer is the #1 cause of being a killer. The tools they use to kill, while important and should be highly regulated, isn’t the cause. The cause needs to be treated, not the tool. There are still mass killings in other countries.

 

[chaseter]

It is a mental health issue, but it's more about the readily available access to a varying array of deadly firearms that is the 1st & foremost main problem.

It's not like other developed countries don't have mental health problems because they do, but they don't have any near the same mass killing problems because they have competent & reasonable gun laws/regulations in place.

You bolded where I said guns are very important but they aren’t the cause. It is a contributing factor and should be looked at. Otherwise, a Country that banned guns should have zero gun related slayings. Is that the case? No. The US a) is larger so more slayings will statistically occur and b) guns are more available so yes, more gun deaths definitely. But, the cause is still a mental health issue whether they use a gun, bomb, a knife, etc. It seems the right defend guns and the left defend mental illness. We need the people in the middle to legislate. I think we agree more closely here. It’s both but one is the cause is my point.

 

[Aximili86]

Did anything else come out on that teacher the other day pulling the piece and firing a shot in a barricaded classroom?

Seemed strange at the time, more like a perceived point being made rather than a dude just snapping. I'd love to hear the motive on that, if the cops have got it out of him yet, haven't seen much follow-up on it.

 

[B]

You bolded where I said guns are very important but they aren’t the cause. It is a contributing factor and should be looked at. Otherwise, a Country that banned guns should have zero gun related slayings. Is that the case? No. The US a) is larger so more slayings will statistically occur and b) guns are more available so yes, more gun deaths definitely. But, the cause is still a mental health issue whether they use a gun, bomb, a knife, etc. It seems the right defend guns and the left defend mental illness. We need the people in the middle to legislate. I think we agree more closely here. It’s both but one is the cause is my point.

There will never be literally zero gun related killings in any country regardless of how strict the gun laws are because there will always be ways to get hold of one if you want it so bad albeit illegally.

You are right though in the sense that it's a mental health issue regardless of what is used to murder someone, sane people do not go on killing sprees. However at the same time, bombs are obviously illegal & you can't really regulate knives anymore than they already are in the US, I'm sure your laws are very similar to the ones here in the UK in regards to carrying knives. Guns & firearms however can be regulated a hell of a lot more than they currently are.

I wonder though you have made me think, I wonder would the statistics in the US show that mental health problems are in line with mass shooting increases in the last 20 years or so ie would the statistics show that mental health problems have also risen as significantly.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Deleted

 

[LTuser]

Well, there's an article out there, where a 20 year old has started a lawsuit against ***** and Walmart, claiming age discrimination..
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/06/20-...mart-over-new-age-restrictions-on-rifles.html

 

[Donner]

That guy is a moron.