The Issue of Hulk and Civilian Deaths

[Dangerous]

It seems like everyone has missed the point of this thread. As I read the OP's post, the question seems to be not about Hulk purposely killing his enemies but about him accidently killing innocents during his rampages. Hulk will obviously be trashing cities and fighting in very heavily populated areas, the question of of accidental deaths as a result of the collateral damage is a valid one.

Thanx.

I was pondering how much collateral death there will be in this film from Hulk, and secondly how graphically this will depicted/acknowledged.

Perhaps I could have posed these points more clearly.

 

[Green eyed Hulk]

In the clip when he protects Betty from the chopper you don't see any pilot jumping out. But I remember in Angs when he threw the tank a few scenes later we saw the soldier get out of the tank. this must've been done to show the Hulk hadn't killed even though that tank was thrown about half a mile.

 

[Nivek]

In the clip when he protects Betty from the chopper you don't see any pilot jumping out. But I remember in Angs when he threw the tank a few scenes later we saw the soldier get out of the tank. this must've been done to show the Hulk hadn't killed even though that tank was thrown about half a mile.

Actually, you see the cockpit eject, in the spot it's just a black square, but I'm sure it will be detail rendered later. Thats how it was written in the novel.

Or, the film makers can cop out and say the coptor was a Apache modified to a UAV.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

In the clip when he protects Betty from the chopper you don't see any pilot jumping out. But I remember in Angs when he threw the tank a few scenes later we saw the soldier get out of the tank. this must've been done to show the Hulk hadn't killed even though that tank was thrown about half a mile.

Yes, but that tank didn't erupt in a fiery conflagration on impact either, unlike the chopper in this movie.

 

[November Rain]

Stopped reading here. You know why? Because its the freaking plot line, that's why. They want to use him as a weapon in this, and thats not exactly far off from real life. If you don't like it don't see it. But it would most certainly happen regardless of comic book canon. (Which I hate being brought into movie discussions as no comic film has ever accurately portrayed it's source material in my book.)

So is basing an incorrect relationship with the government now a reason for banner running. Since when did banner have ethical values about the potential of his power and when would that overule his responsibilities to the innocent people he hurt.

Again remember we are now speaking of a hyptothetical case where banner knows him turning into the hulk could potentially kill innocent people including the ones he loves like betty ross. This is under the guise of a true savage hulk entity.

a savage hulk is like drink driving. You think if banner drink drove he'd just hit the road because he didn't want the cops to get his car?

Do you REALLY think in real life any government would let that kind of weapon slip out of their grasp? I can assure you more people than simply the U.S. Government would be hunting Hulk for the simple intention of using it as a weapon.

Well stem cell research on animals pretty much has already shown we can produce super soldiers grown from birth with genetically enhanced skills. They won't even go near it now.

Fictionally in the hulk universe, it seems this is the research banner is personally looking into. His department probably has the best means of obtaining a cure for him and he'd be safe from harming others if the hulk was believed to continually cause the death of innocents.

Sure, a government would probably let him cure himself, after they've found out a way to use it to their benefit. If you really think any countries government is such a goody-two-shoes as to say "Nah, we don't want to use this, let's just help you and that'll be the end of that..." then I feel for you, I truly do.

Banner was working for the government for a super soldier formulae before, he doesn't really care about the ethics of those wandering around with his abilities.

and they already have created a super soldier serum. Fine they would do tests on banner and so forth but They would make sure he was restricted from causing human casualties, perhaps in a less crazy manner than attempted in ang's hulk

Thus, Banner is on the run, he doesn't want to be held captive because their will probably perform horrific tests on him, concentrate the power of the Hulk, slap it into super soldiers, and use it during wars to kill people.

But no, that's clearly "selfish."

yeah, it's far more selfless to be on the run, away from professional psychological and medical help, a research lab, a containment area and waste time hiding instead of doing research only to hulk out over getting cut by a razor and killing 150 people.

score

You see, if he doesnt hurt people, fine but that wasn't the hypothetical situation i highlighted and thus you replied to so yeah it's selfish.

You can't go around doing what you want with no regard for who you are hurting/killing. If banner has a tendency to kill, than he has to be responsible, answer to his crimes and protect people from himself as he is a danger to the community.

I don't know why the united states government in this case is this great evil force that don't know what they are dealing with, they initiated the project in the first place

 

[November Rain]

Well put Frosty
This should really put an end to this ridiculous discussion. Sheeesh!

Meh,

if you hulked out and rampaged through a hospital only to wake up and realise what you did, you'd be happy to justify your crimes by not wanting the government to meddle with you?

that's pretty shallow dude

 

[Cracker Jack]

Meh,

if you hulked out and rampaged through a hospital only to wake up and realise what you did, you'd be happy to justify your crimes by not wanting the government to meddle with you?

that's pretty shallow dude

I see, better to trust the Goverment. Hmmmmmmmmmm No thanks The guy with the bigest (fill in the blank) usually wins the war.

 

[FrostBite]

Well November Rain if you want to put it that way I suppose the Hulk in the comics, movies, tv show, all of it, is a selfish character. Why? Because even in the comics, say he is not killing anyone, he has still mangled punks, he has still caused millions in property damage (at least.)

Therefore I suppose you just need to give up on the character itself.

Er... unless you want a Hulk with no destruction, in which case... I'd have nothing to say to you.

Did you ever stop to think much like Iron Man in his film turned his back on the weapons industry... and much like his comic origin where he is creating a gamma bomb, he realizes "Hm, I was quite the idiot, this type of power shouldn't exist, maybe I want to try to get rid of it regardless of what my former job was?"

 

[November Rain]

That's the worst logic I have ever possibly heard.

You'd happily kill thousands over your lifetime than to trust your own government, the very same people you applied to work with and have been paying your bills and you openly volunteered to work with to create 'gasp' supersoldiers?

 

[FrostBite]

That's the worst logic I have ever possibly heard.

You'd happily kill thousands over your lifetime than to trust your own government, the very same people you applied to work with and have been paying your bills and you openly volunteered to work with to create 'gasp' supersoldiers?

Gasp! In this movie he's not creating super soldiers!

Spoiler

He's experimenting to try to make their cells more resistant to radiation.

In the comics he was doing worse than even super soldiers, he was creating a super bomb.

But as I just said, he after turning into a manifestation of that power realizes it should not exist.

 

[Scooter]

I thought Blonsky was involved in the supersoldier program. Isn't that how he was doing all those flips and kicks an whatnot?

 

[November Rain]

Well November Rain if you want to put it that way I suppose the Hulk in the comics, movies, tv show, all of it, is a selfish character. Why? Because even in the comics, say he is not killing anyone, he's still mangled punks, he's still caused millions in property damage (at least.)

dude, you know property damage is one thing but the loss of life is something completely different, why are you trying to make a case that doesn't warrant the same level of emotional play on banner.

Therefore I suppose you just need to give up on the character itself.

Er... unless you want a Hulk with no destruction, in which case... I'd have nothing to say to you.

Did you ever stop to think much like Iron Man in his film turned his back on the weapons industry... and much like his comic origin where he is creating a gamma bomb, he realizes "Hm, I was quite the idiot, this type of power shouldn't exist, maybe I want to try to get rid of it regardless of what my former job was?"

Iron man never turned his back on the weapons industry, he stopped making weapons because he got hit by his own which was because he couldn't trust that the weapons would stay with the good guys, i.e. the united states government. Good guys

If he hadnt had got hit with his own weapons, there would not have been any real change on his moral stance. It wasn't the weapons he was against per say, rather the whole trading issues of warfare.

It's not like he didn't go on to create his greatest weapon of all or even mass manufacture his minigenerator that would do far more for the world than any other project he may have his sights on.

in that respect, he was just like spidey, it was because some of his actions backfired on him that he had to step up to the plate. At least those two were somewhat responsible and realised what they weren't doing was wrong. Bruce is somewhat in two minds about it.

 

[Cracker Jack]

NR you're making a huge (pun) assumption that people are being killed. If the government (usually the bad guys in the comic book universe) weren't chasing Banner, there would be no killing, destruction or smashing. Banner made a mistake and is now aware of it. The mistake he has to live with. Letting the "bad guys" get a hold of him and make more "Hulks" he can't let happen. Plain and simple.

 

[FrostBite]

dude, you know property damage is one thing but the loss of life is something completely different, why are you trying to make a case that doesn't warrant the same level of emotional play on banner.

You must read selectively. Property damage wasn't stated for Banner's emotional state. But by your logic he should turn himself in as he is hurting people. The government would chase him for that alone.

If Hulk rampages through a city, smashes someones apartment complex, you think that doesn't hurt anyone? You think that couldn't ruin someones life?

Obviously by your logic, he should have given up in the comics and turned himself in. He is a villain to many after all.

If he hadnt had got hit with his own weapons, there would not have been any real change on his moral stance. It wasn't the weapons he was against per say, rather the whole trading issues of warfare.

...Uhm, the same thing... happened to Bruce?

 

[November Rain]

NR you're making a huge (pun) assumption that people are being killed. If the government (usually the bad guys in the comic book universe) weren't chasing Banner, there would be no killing, destruction or smashing. Banner made a mistake and is now aware of it. The mistake he has to live with. Letting the "bad guys" get a hold of him and make more "Hulks" he can't let happen. Plain and simple.

The whole thread is based off this idea. That's the point. My whole argument was that if he was to kill people, than banner's relationship with the hulk would be somewhat irresponsible and if it is that way in the film, I don't believe it would be realistic. If he doesn't kill which i hope he doesn't (accidentally or on purpose), keep it as it is because it works.

Ah dude, you know banner's hulked out before without much influence from bad guys and the government. He's induced it himself multiple times not to mention the countless interactions with heroes that have caused him to spark up and hulk out.

Personally, if i was aware of someone with that much potential for carnage, regardless of their situation, I would reccommend they turn themselves in for their own safety. He's pretty much a regenerative suicide bomber capable of exploding at any minute. No one can really justify someone along those lines walking among us.

 

[Nivek]

I thought Blonsky was involved in the supersoldier program. Isn't that how he was doing all those flips and kicks an whatnot?

Spoiler

Because Ross is knee deep in spearheading a Bioweapons program. As noted in the script and Novel, Cap was the only one who turned out like he was supposed to, but was a fluke. They never could duplicate what happened because the process usually kills it's test subject. Same with Banner turning into the Hulk, it was a"happy accident". He is 1000% better and more powerful than Cap ever was, but cannot be controlled and is a pure savage brute. Blonsky apparently took the SSS better than any of the previous subjects, or maybe he didn't burn out as quickly. The SSS does effect him mentally later, maybe thats the drawback, it makes the subjects psychotic. We never know what would've happened because he doses up on Hulk blood and mutates into the Abomination.

 

[November Rain]

NR you're making a huge (pun) assumption that people are being killed. If the government (usually the bad guys in the comic book universe) weren't chasing Banner, there would be no killing, destruction or smashing. Banner made a mistake and is now aware of it. The mistake he has to live with. Letting the "bad guys" get a hold of him and make more "Hulks" he can't let happen. Plain and simple.

The whole thread is based off this idea. That's the point. My whole argument was that if he was to kill people, than banner's relationship with the hulk would be somewhat irresponsible and if it is that way in the film, I don't believe it would be realistic. If he doesn't kill which i hope he doesn't (accidentally or on purpose), keep it as it is because it works.



Ah dude, you know banner's hulked out before without much influence from bad guys and the government. He's induced it himself multiple times not to mention the countless interactions with heroes that have caused him to spark up and hulk out.



Personally, if i was aware of someone with that much potential for carnage, regardless of their situation, I would reccommend they turn themselves in for their own safety. He's pretty much a regenerative suicide bomber capable of exploding at any minute. No one can really justify someone along those lines walking among us.

 

[FrostBite]

Spoiler

Because Ross is knee deep in spearheading a Bioweapons program. As noted in the script and Novel, Cap was the only one who turned out like he was supposed to, but was a fluke. They never could duplicate what happened because the process usually kills it's test subject. Same with Banner turning into the Hulk, it was a"happy accident". He is 1000% better and more powerful than Cap ever was, but cannot be controlled and is a pure savage brute. Blonsky apparently took the SSS better than any of the previous subjects, or maybe he didn't burn out as quickly. The SSS does effect him mentally later, maybe thats the drawback, it makes the subjects psychotic. We never know what would've happened because he doses up on Hulk blood and mutates into the Abomination.

Nivek in the novel can you clear something up for me,

Spoiler

Is Banner still working on the radiation resistant cells or is he himself working on the SSS?

 

[November Rain]

Alright frosty, I apologise, I assumed banner was working for the government on some super soldier directive.

He normally works directly for them or for a government contract for a super weapon of some sort, whether it be gamma bombs or super soldier stuff.

I won't read the spoilers because i don't want the details.

I still do believe that government containment as well as a well funded research lab is the best way for him to go, especially if hulking out risks the lives of innoncents. I guess i'm different that way...

 

[FrostBite]

Alright frosty, I apologise, I assumed banner was working for the government on some super soldier directive.

He normally works directly for them or for a government contract for a super weapon of some sort, whether it be gamma bombs or super soldier stuff.

I won't read the spoilers because i don't want the details.

I still do believe that government containment as well as a well funded research lab is the best way for him to go, especially if hulking out risks the lives of innoncents. I guess i'm different that way...

Well don't apologize just yet t:. I am trying to get Nivek to clear something up for me. (The origin is not very clear in the first draft to me.) And his copy of the novel is probably a better representation of what will happen. Banner may have been working on the SSS. They just chose to make the origin very foggy, I've heard like 3 different theories from everyone.

So don't apologize yet, I may have to be the one who does the apologizing.
Either way, just as with the gamma bomb, I believe he would be just as selfish in the comics as he does cost people their homes, companies and the government costs etc. He's a ticking time bomb of destruction in the comics whether people die or not.

But he obviously does not trust the government, and in this movie for a very obvious reason.

 

[Cracker Jack]

The whole thread is based off this idea. That's the point. My whole argument was that if he was to kill people, than banner's relationship with the hulk would be somewhat irresponsible and if it is that way in the film, I don't believe it would be realistic. If he doesn't kill which i hope he doesn't (accidentally or on purpose), keep it as it is because it works.

Ok, now if he outright kills someone, yes, bad idea. Inconsistent with who the Hulk is. However, I don't believe he does kill anyone, outright. If he does accidentlly kill someone, I don't think it is going to be shown. The viewers can either make the assumption that they died or they lived but were injured. The comic book has always been the same way. Reading the Hulk as a kid I always assumed that people got hurt but didn't die.

Personally, if i was aware of someone with that much potential for carnage, regardless of their situation, I would reccommend they turn themselves in for their own safety. He's pretty much a regenerative suicide bomber capable of exploding at any minute. No one can really justify someone along those lines walking among us.

You would recommend, not me. Who could you trust? Greed and power take people over. Who wouldn't want the power the Hulk has? Who could control it? What is it they say about absolute power?

 

[DragonLord]

It’s fascinating reading all the Philosophical discussions about what the Author really thinks about his creation. What are the real intentions he formulated in his mind when the Hulk was created. To me the Hulk has evolved and mature and it’s was best illustrated in the Planet Hulk/WW Hulk saga. Bear with me for a moment. It all starts with a request for Help, take out the Satellite, and ends up in Betrayal. In the Hulk’s mind, the needs of the many outweighed the need of the One. Betrayed, and alone in a strange planet, he finds himself in the most unusual mood that I have ever seen in the Hulk, he actually sulks. Normally he would extrovert his emotions and smash, but not this time. He retreats into himself. Later in the Planet Hulk Saga he realizes that there are others that don’t see him as a monster but as a Friend and they form a Brotherhood. Now his healing starts. He cares about this planet, and helps. He rights the wrongs, and Falls in Love, and she becomes pregnant. But alas, all this good stuff is never meant to be. We have a nuclear blast, with Millions lost, had to save the planet, and his Pregnant wife died.

Enter WW Hulk. What an emotional state he’s in. Is he angry? You betcha, but it’s more than just anger. There is an emotion there that drives the Hulk to levels that are off the scale for him. His stronger then he has ever been. What drives him? He mentions it many times, the deaths of millions. Innocent people destroyed by the stupidity of a few and the betrayal of one. The emotion driving him is the Sense of Justice. He was the voice of all those Millions. In WWH He never wanted the innocent in harms way so 24 hours notice to evacuate NYC was giving.

The Hulk is a Superhero because he Cares. In one scene Dr. Strange caused a part of the building to collapse on top of some civilian bystanders, and guess who saved them? The Hulk represents’, the discarded, the ridicule, the innocent, the misunderstood, and the ones who want to live a normal life. But with “Great power comes great responsibility”. Will the Hulk harm an innocent? NEVER. But he knows that it happens and it’s his responsibility to bear. Why do you think he wants to be left alone? That’s a burden that even his great strength can’t lift.

So leave the Hulk alone. Enjoy the movie and relax. We’ll see this hero often enough. t:

 

[Sarg92]

On the subject of the origin, this is what Kevin Feige says about it...

In regard to how the serum is used, is that dependent on how it's administered or a person's personality? How Tim [Roth] turns into The Abomination and Bruce turns into The Hulk? What are the variables?

Feige: Well, it's a very different process from the accident that occurred for Bruce which was based almost entirely on gamma radiation when he was in that chair experimenting, trying to bring out the strength within in someone and then the injection that Blonsky gets. But absolutely, I think with any Marvel character it's always the personality of the person. What if somebody else had been bit by the spider? What if someone else was hit by the cosmic waves? And you see at the end of 'Iron Man', what if someone else had that suit? It's very much dependent on the personality and usually and traditionally and especially in the case of Bruce Banner in this film it's usually the person that least wants it. Bruce wasn't sitting in that chair to get strength, to become super powered. He was in that chair to experiment and to prove a theory that he had and in doing so he opened Pandora's Box and he spent all of the intervening time, between the title sequence and meeting him in Brazil, and even the first half of this film, trying to close it again, trying to lock it up, trying to keep it at bay. Over the course of the movie, as you've heard us say ad nauseum about him, becoming Hulk as a hero. He learns that in the right hands, particularly, and it's only until he sees it in the absolute wrong hands that he realizes that he perhaps could be someone to control it for good.

Hurd: And that contrasts with Blonsky who is very much about getting that kind of power.

 

[FrostBite]

Edit: Okay, so I was right about the origin.

Oy... my head hurts.

 

[Spade]

Spoiler

The script mentions that Banner was looking for a way to boost human resistance to radiation exposure, as a part of this whole push towards making a Super Soldier. Bruce survives his experiment because of Betty's protein primer, but accidentally creates the Hulk.

I think that research is the "strength" Feige is talking about. He's not really working towards the program's ultimate goal, nor is it serum-related.